Talk:Gregorian Bivolaru

NOT NPOV

I don't know who wrote most of the information in this article - I don't know if the contributors are Romanians or not, but I can tell you as a Romanian that this article is lacking a NPOV. It is almost like the article was written by a MISA member.

If is written by a MISA member is automatically not corect? MISA members and students know him and they know his biography better. Please read the APADOR-CH, AmnestyInternational and Sojust reports. They speak about authorities abuse so trust them. Corect 14:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

For example this paragraph: Even after 1990, he was persecuted by the police. In 2005, he was charged for eight counts, including having sex with a minor, tax evasion, and illegally crossing the border.

So what? What is the point in this paragraph? If someone commits an illegal act or there is reasonable suspicion about this and the police investigates the situation is this persecution??? The Romanian police and prosecutors acted because there were video tapes and witneses documenting their actions. Charging a person for tax evasion and illegally crossing the border is not persecution, is applying the laws. If someone does not pay the taxes should the authotities avoid taking any measure in order not to 'persecute' him/her? This is plain stupid.

Been charged doesnt make you automatically guilty. They where a lot of charges over the last 17 years and no conviction. THIS CAN BE AN ABUSE.Corect 14:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

And the other aspects - regarding sex with a minor - there are video tapes with nude MISA members and some of them -including one minor- addmited that they have been having sex. Having sex with a minor is illegal in in Romania, in USA and I am sure in a lot of other "civilised" countries too (I am not sure abut Sweden). No offense swedish people - but Sweden granting asylum to Bivolaru is almost being as guilty as him. LATER EDIT: Yeah I forgot to sign.-Paul- 22:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

See the video taped statment of the girl (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7329568547831033339). It was taken under presure and force and without lawyer even if she was a minor. Corect 14:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

1. Please sign your entries, so I can talk to you. 2. That was badly worded. Should've put the "even after 1990" part a paragraph upper. 3. The NPOV is disputed here. Who's right? The press? the yogis? the police? Vadim? ok, the last one was thrown into the discussion without a point. You see, the campain against him was so violent that it's hard to beleieve everything's fine with the press. I mean, look at the way they call him in press, look at all the sarcasm in the press. Is that normal? Is that right?

      They were drinking PEE and staying together nude with naked minors - is THAT right ??? -Paul- 22:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I mean, Gabriel Bivolaru did a lot of bad things too - and he was just a side story. News: "there was a murder in ****, a man killed his wife. he came late at home during the night, grabbed the knife and stabbed her. And now, on to the next news: scandal! Yogis are in sexual orgies! The damned sectants drink their own piss. Look at how that horrible man is brainwashing 30.000 people! Beware! He will kidnap your kids and have sex with them. Did we tell you yogis gather up in spirals and worship their newly-afounded god, Bivolaru? Amazing, ain't it? We swear it's just like that. Look! We even have a picture of them in a spiral!" - get my drift? Besides, the minor was 17. And it's not illegal in romania to have sex with a 17 year-old. it's illegal to have sex with somebody up to 15 years. (it's illegal 15-18 if you're the parent, tutor, teacher, etc.). And the girl retreated the accusation saying it was given under pressure. Of course, nobody cared about that and about the fact that she said that she'd been forced to sign a paper after many hours of people yelling at her and pulling her hair. Sarshi 21:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Marital Status

This place is the first and only place I ever heard of Bivolaru being married. The reference link is not working. Someone please take care of this, either by adding a reference or by deleting that part. Sarshi 21:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

_________________

Ok, this is still the only place I've heard about him being married. I actually dug up the reference, since the link didn't work (see my past complaint) and found the following article:

"Guru Bivolaru are mandat pentru crima organizata 16 Aprilie 2005 Raluca Dan Cosmin Torr

Gregorian Bivolaru s-a ales cu un nou mandat de arestare pentru 30 de zile, intr-un dosar in care este acuzat de trafic de fiinte umane si infractiuni asociate crimei organizate. Mandatul pe numele mentorului Miscarii de Integrare Spirituala in Absolut a fost emis ieri, in mare taina, de magistratii Tribunalului Bucuresti. Surse judiciare ne-au declarat ca, incepind din decembrie 2001 si pina in 2004, Guru Bivolaru a condus un grup de 17 persoane care obtineau bani in urma exploatarii sexuale a adeptilor Miscarii de Integrare Spirituala in Absolut. Dupa ce erau recrutate, victimele erau sechestrate in ashram-uri. Grupul folosea in special tinere, care erau obligate fie sa se prostitueze, fie sa devina protagonistele unor show-uri erotice transmise prin intermediul unui video-chat. In acelasi dosar, Bivolaru mai este acuzat de inca o infractiune: sustragere de la urmarirea penala. Urmarit international inca din vara anului trecut, Gregorian Bivolaru a fost prins in orasul Malm?, din Suedia, dupa ce depusese o cerere de azil politic. Instanta suedeza urmeaza sa se pronunte in privinta extradarii acestuia in Romania."

-not a word about a wife! Amazing...

I'm deleting the marriage part.

Sarshi 21:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

---

Well He DOES have a wife. I met her many times. she told me about her pains and sorrows of suffering many years of being "hidden" for legal and other reasons. He provides a small (cold in the winter) place for her to "live". She is a very sensitive and kind woman who TAUGHT him most of what he knew (esp about Tibetan philosophy, etc) in the beginning times of his "career" as a "guru". They spent quite a lot of time together back in the 70's in France. Sorry, but confirming her by name may not be wise at this time. As for him. Be Wise and know he has taken much from the needy and poor and well as from others from the West. Now he is free and out of Romania. So many families have been destroyed and children of those yogi families. caught-up in the nightmare created.

---

There's NO wife. He never was married. I have seen a few biographies and not one included marriage. I have talked to many, many yogis - and not one ever mentioned his wife. Not even the papers, the scandal creators, have mentioned any wife. That paragraph is unreferenced and has no basis in reality. I am removing that until you have proof. And the fact that you are biased doesn't mean you can invent stuff like this and post it here. Sarshi 07:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Sarshi, I respect your sincerity but when I was in Costinesti, I spent many many days with her (name withheld per her request), who told be all about herself and Greig. You may never have met her. I swear this is true. I believe her for many reasons to include her living situation nearby Grieg's Villa and other yogis who were with us at the time in her place who also know of her. I do not wish to see innocent people harmed - families destroyed - children misguided anywhere at anytime in this world.

Go ahead with your beliefs, I am just a bit upset about things that certain yogis should Never have told me, as they broke their promises of things/activities to be kept secret within the organization (according to them). Even Grieg's driver at that time verified some things not publicly (even to most of the yogis) known. I understood that Simi was rejected (I believe for money theft) from the organization shortly after the last attack on MISA and on the ashrams.

After careful consideration... i will now leave this issue in the hands of our Creator. I pray that someday soon we will all become much more harmonious and open and loving. Grapeheart 14:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Meh, sorry about the fuming around. It's just that the wife reference appeared around the same time as some vandalisms on this page. The link for checking this out pointed out to an article that had no connection to the problem. Google, in this case, was not my friend and it showed nothing when I searched to see if there's anything about his marital status. Anyway, wife or no wife, my opinion is that we shouldn't include stuff that can't be referenced anywhere. Sarshi 20:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yoga movement

Actually, it is, surprisingly, a yoga organisation. It was even recognized internationally. And no other country but Romania seems to have problems with MISA, so it remains a "yoga organization" and not a "so-called yoga organisation". Sarshi 12:00 AM, 20 June 2006

Sarshi, I am only reporting what I witnessed first-hand (regarding Japan and women) and was told by many of the women who went there again -- they were not supposed to tell me anything, but I was GIVEN the information by THEM, the yogi women... and then it was verified by Simi and others over a period of time. I saw the passport handling and losses, etc. Not because I wanted to but because They chose to expose this to me! I only know what I saw and heard from being with the yogis. Sometimes the Truth hurts us, but we must be honest with ourselves if we are to progress in this life and the next.

Sincerely Grapeheart 14:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a yoga organization. The yogis actually practice yoga (at least, the majority of them do), so therefore it's a yoga organization. The scandals and stuff can be posted in the article and they should. But you don't start it with the words "so-called yoga organization". Let me explain this in the following way: if in a political Party 30% of the members are doing illegal activities and 40% of the members are slacking off and showing up at half the meetings, it is still called a political party. Because as long as it has activities as a party, it's still a party. So it happens with MISA. Even if some of the members might be doing this and that, even if some don't really practice yoga at home, even if, even if... MISA still holds yoga courses. Well organized, 18 years of courses already, any number of techniques and tens of thousands of people doing yoga. Therefore, regardless of what some members do, it's still a yoga organization. Sarshi 15:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

if in a party, the HEADS of the party PROMOTE an activity, then that is to be considered a criterion based on which do judge the whole party. if in a "yoga movement" the HEAD promotes so called "shakti groups" where young teenagers are recruited for "belly dances" in japan clubs (we all know what that means), then the yoga movement is just an international brothel. (post made by some person who won't sign)

sign the comments you make. it's easier to talk to you that way. So, to reply: even if you judge the whole party by that criteria, as long as there are still politicians in it, you still call it a party - you called it that just now, right?... "a criterion on which do judge the whole party" - aka, it's still a political party. same thing here. call it a yoga organization that doesn't do as it promotes to do if you like, but you can't say it's not a yoga organization as long as there are people actually practising yoga in it.Sarshi 18:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Costitesti

Is that "Costitesti" supposed to be Costeşti or Costineşti? bogdan 21:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Brother

The media later said that the thoery that Gabriel Bivolaru is Gregorian Bivolaru's half-brother was a mistake, based on the similarity of the names, so, I am going to remove that paragraph from there. Sufitul 06:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

I have gone through this article and cleaned it up for language and POV issues, including correcting some things based on notes on this page. --Lendorien 18:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Juridical status of Mr. Bivolaru

Here, at the beginning of the page about G. B., is a mistake: "he was acquitted for all the other charges against him (e.g. minor trafficking)". He was not acquitted, the accusations against him were prescribed because the processes took too long time, that is because the advocates invoked a lot of reasons to postpone them. It's a common thing to postpone processes, for example because the witnesses could not come because of bad weather (as they could not make an earlier start). :). The sentences should be on the site of the courts, but I don't search on web unless asked. He was accused by some other things, not only minor trafficking. Like in any sect, the sect-ants are brainwashed. They adore the guru and can't see bad things written about him. P.S. I think the sect members won't like to discuss here about whether MISA is a sect or not, by the criterions of anti-cult organisations. ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncle sam14 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Cult status cannot be determined through original research. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability in reliable sources. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Please do not try to make Mr. Bivolaru a convicted person as log as he was only been charged with accusations that where not accepted to be corect by the Swedish autorities. The prosecutors are beeing now charged for their abuses so maybe they want to cover some of the facts. Stop removing the links and references to movies with statements and to Human Rights Reports.Corect 15:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

You shouldn't cry wolf as long you keep whitewashing Bivolaru and removing the references and the links stating otherwise. The current version looks like a MISA propaganda manual. And btw, you violated the 3RR rule. Mentatus 19:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I did NOT removed any reference. The so called "proofs" are still there, please check in the references section. I only added some information. But in the article were many suppositions, rumors, gossips that had in fact as a reference only some broken links. I think you are intoxicated by the media. Better read the "Mass media campaign section" in the (http://www.gregorianbivolaru.com) site. I hope you don't agree with the journalist Emanuel Isopescu who expresses a "very neutral point of view" when he says he "would break Mr. Bivolaru’s neck". This is just one example of well documented instigation against Gregorian Bivolaru. There are many more in the Google videos and in the official site. For example the declarations of some Members of Parlament. I don't know if I have violated any rule, but certainly I offered some correct and well documented information. Corect 11:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Mircea Eliade

Could somebody please rephrase this? "Mircea Eliade a historian of religions, philosopher and writer who is considered to be a "public enemy" by many people who have known him." - I doubt that he was considered a public enemy by many people who knew him, he was a public enemy by communist standards, rather. Sarshi 16:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your notice Sarshi. Corect 08:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

What proof do you have of his alleged correspondence with Mircea Eliade? [Dan]

Controversy

Well, there are two sides of the story here. So maybe we should add a "controversy" tab, in which to state what the yogis think and what the anti-yogis think, so that anybody who reads this will see both "sides of the coin". And then maybe some of the NPOV trouble will be reduced. Maybe. Sarshi 16:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Try Calumny and Disparagement instead of Controversy. The Swedish Supreme Court noted that that the evidence against Bivolaru on charges of rape, tax fraud, and anti-Semitic statements, was insufficient. The Helsinki Committee for Human Rights says that witnesses against him had been forced to lie. In addition, certain Romanian legislators have called Bivolaru “Satan”, “psychopath”, and “terrorist.” When the basic rights of yogis are reestablished in Romania, when justice will be done, we can think if there is a controversy or not. Until then, anyone with "anti-yogis"(!???) opinions, please come with facts and proofs. Corect 08:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Counter opinions about Mister Bivolaru

I added to the links' sections a blog with ex-MISA yogis' stories ("initiations" where Mr. Bivolaru had sex with hundreds of teenager brainwashed girls, copyright infringements in the yoga courses taught by Mr. Bivolaru, human trafficking and proxenetism in Japan, unremunerated "karma yoga" on construction yards, videochat erotic shows made as "karmayoga" with the income donated to the movement, etc.) and a forum for talks. They are in Romanian, but we're working on an English version with the most important posts.

Was the judicial action against Mr. Bivolaru an abuse ? Yes. Is he the innocent person that his adepts portray him to be ? No.

When some big government official's daughter got involved with MISA and decided to move into an "ashram" and drop school, her daddy called Bivolaru personally and gave him an ultimatum. Bivolaru managed to babble something about "personal freedom of choice" and "free arbiter". The man went mad with rage, and went to his friend Nastase (an important politician) who took the matter into his own hands. That's the underside of the whole Bivolaru trial: corrupt politicians acting illegally against a known proxenet and crook. He escaped thanks to his SRI ("Romanian Information Service" - an intelligence agency) conections, being hand-in-hand with a known big "securitate" officer, Teoctist, the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church (they are partners in the business of selling religion).

___________

You forgot to sign again. It's not nice to give anonymus tips like these, it makes them seem as if you were acting on behalf of a hate group. Soooo...

1. no forums allowed as reference. It's in wiki's rules. "Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for controversial, derogatory, or otherwise unverifiable statements about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below)."

2. (definitely less NPOV on my side here) *rolls eyes* you seem to be very pompous and phrase your words to sound as terrible as possible. ""initiations" where Mr. Bivolaru had sex with hundreds of teenager brainwashed girls" - at the same time? hundreds? Gosh, if only normal guys could do that O_o

"unremunerated "karma yoga" on construction yards" - wow, people worked for free because they wanted to. And... that's a crime? *goes off to her old school* The law DEMANDS you give me money for the time I painted the door!

"Was the judicial action against Mr. Bivolaru an abuse ? Yes. Is he the innocent person that his adepts portray him to be ? No." - kinda useless to militate on the encyclopedia's talk page, but meh.

"Bivolaru managed to babble something about "personal freedom of choice" and "free arbiter"." True. How DARE a girl decide to move away from home and give up the school for the first reason that popped into her mind?... Shame on the scapegoat!

"being hand-in-hand with a known big "securitate" officer, Teoctist, the head of the Romanian Orthodox Church (they are partners in the business of selling religion)." O_o Securitate?... you mean those guys that imprisoned him 20-something years before and beat him half to death?... Sarshi 18:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[Off-topic related to the "Teoctist" disscusion] after being imprisoned 20-something years (maybe also heavily brainwashed in this time) and being beat half to death (maybe many times), unless you are not THAT main protagonist of the Cristian Bible, no matter what your relation with God is, there are chances that you give up your fate and, at least, start to collaborate. And when you see that suddenly your life changes from very bad to very good, chances are that you will be tempted to make your life even better (with the price of selling your soul to Satan). MY COMMENT IS STRICTLY OBJECTIVE, NOT INCRIMINATING ANYONE. I DO NOT HOLD ANY PRO OR CON INFO ABOUT TEOCTTIST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.119.8.152 (talk) 13:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

BS article

Well it seems Grig still has his filthy army of drones to look after his "interests" back home. A disgusting pervert whose "organisation" was nothing but a facade for promiscuity and pimping, a man who is personally responsible for brainwashing and ruining the lives of countless young girls, many of them underage, is presented as some great hero for freedom of speech. It just shows what a stupid, incompetent dictator Ceusescu was for not sending someone to put a bullet in this guy's head back in the 80s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 11:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

tantric initiations

Mr. Bivolaru proudly claims to have had sex with over 6000 women, the majority of them being students of the yoga courses. As soon as he sees a picture of a woman he likes, he sends her an invitation, and she is then persuaded by his fanatical followers to go and meet him because this will enhance her spiritual evolution, burn her karma, awaken her state of shakti etc. As he never uses any means of protection, many women are reported to have been infected by him with several sexually transmitted diseases, which have become very resistant to medication even after one year of treatment. Although he receives larges amounts of money from various enterprises in which his followers are involved, like striptease in night-clubs, erotic video-chat and adult movies, it has been difficult to follow legal charges against him, because he never does anything on his own name, so he is officially not involved, although the girls are told that they are doing it for him and for the yoga school. Mr. Bivolaru believes himself to be a liberated spiritual master who has a special mission to awaken spiritually the planet. This is why all the strange things that he does are supposed to have a "Divine integration" and a higher meaning, so many people fall pray to the beautiful lies that are circulated in his school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamapura (talk • contribs) 15:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Claimed accusations and calumnies

Gregorian Bivolaru and his sect are not what the author of the article claims them to be. I personally know of women that were sent to Japan where they used the sexual techniques they learned while parctising with the sect as a tool with japanese men in exchange for large sums of money and at least half of that money was going to Bivolaru and MISA. Bivolaru is supposed to be in prison for human trafficking ant for instigating to prostitution. All Misa members know about that. Like every sect MISA is a dangerous organization that should be dissolved and the head of MISA Gregorian Bivolaru should be extradite to Romania and hold responsible for his acts. (Morgen1013 (talk) 17:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC))

Your claims are abusive and not sustained by any valid proof or justice decision. MISA is an valid NGO and only supporters of the comunist regime and old Securitate can ask for dissolvation. Gregorian Bivolaru CANNOT be extradited to Romania because of the extradition request declined by the Supreme Court of Justice in Stockholm (http://gregorianbivolaru.net/sweden-3-1.php) and because of the political asylum request, accepted by the Swedish Emigration Authority who concluded that Gregorian Bivolaru is unjustly mistreated in Romania due to his beliefs. The decision is undeniable and cannot be challenged by the Romanian Authorities. 78.97.145.13 (talk) 08:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC

Gregorian Bivolaru is a very dangerous person and I REPEAT, HE IS GUILTY OF PROVIDING AND INSTIGATION TO PROSTITUTION AND OF HUMAN TRAFFICKING. All I stated above is true- I know it for sure because I had to assist as a translator to quite a few cases of fraud, prostitution and extortion done by members of MISA - mainly by women offenders. You are brainwashed, what are you trying to tell me that the communist regime that does not exist anymore is manipulating every decent citizen and in truth Bivolaru is a misunderstood genius and a good person? Bivolaru is a dangerous criminal and so are most members of this sect MISA- that are his accolytes. We give MISA the benefit of a doubt because we live in a free world but MISA is a dangerous organization and should be illegal. I hope Romanian Government gets this Bivolaru in prison soon . The Swedish Government will extradite him when there will be more proof of the human trafficking and other illegal activities Bivolaru is guilty of.You know that building an water tight case takes time. I hope the Romanian Government takes time and gets Bivolaru to Justice. There are no communists involved in this so you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morgen1013 (talk • contribs)

Facts

The more I edit, read into this article and check facts, the more concerned I am regarding not only its neutrality and POV, but actual facts and truthfulness of what is written. Over 50% of the resources are in Romanian and unfortunately, I don't speak Romanian. I am spending a lot of time trying to translate everything, but I still think this needs a whole rewrite as there are many [rather obvious] inaccuracies. If there's anyone here who speaks Romanian, please let me know. It will make checking facts a lot easier... ;-) ~dee^(talk?) 18:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Referencing plan

The referencing in this article is quite messed up. The article is using a reference style I have never seen before, so that is a challenge. At the moment, the reference list contains 28 items, none of which are appearing as footnotes in the article. When I review past versions, in 2009, 2007 and 2006, I see a few, as many as 6 in 2006, but that is still not the complete list.

In addition many of the references are not in English, so I am not in a position to read them. Some of the references are dead links, as well.

My plan is to copy all the existing references to this page, then begin adding some in a more common style to the article. Others with the ability to read the language can add some of the others.--SPhilbrickT 13:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me; make the best shape of it you can, using 'normal' formatting, and then leave the cleanup to others who can speak the lingo. Anything has to be better than the way it is. So, yeah; go for it.  Chzz  ►  13:14, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Revised plan

With help from Obsidian Soul, the original "references", which don't seem to be attached to anything, are place in a Notes section. Proper refers are in the reference section. If someone can track down which of the Notes belong where, they can be moved to the Reference section.--SPhilbrickT 13:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I think this is probably the best solution despite the style difficulties presented by differing ref methods. Tiderolls 13:33, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Reference list as at 30 January 2010

Following is a list of the entries in the ref section as of this date, I originally was going to remove them, but we subsequently decide to save them in a separate section. I'll leave them here in case anyone wants to track these down and figure out where they go.--SPhilbrickT 14:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

1. ^ (in Romanian) 16 April 2005, "Guru Bivolaru are mandat pentru crima organizata" (Evenimentul Zilei)
2. ^ (in Romanian) 5 April 2005, "Gregorian Bivolaru a fost arestat in Suedia" (Ştiri România On-Line)
3. ^ (in Romanian) 6 April 2005, "Cum a trecut Guru granita?" (Evenimentul Zilei)
4. ^ (in Romanian) 21 April 2005, "Guru Bivolaru a iesit ilegal din Romania" (Evenimentul Zilei)
5. ^ (in Romanian) 27 March 2004, "A evadat in '84 din arestul Securitatii" (Jurnalul Naţional)
6. ^ (in Romanian) "DECIZIA Nr.211 din 1 noiembrie 2000" (Legile Romaniei)
7. ^ (in Romanian) 1 April 2005, "Gabriel Bivolaru si Gregorian Bivolaru sunt frati" (stiri.kappa.ro)
8. ^ (in Romanian) 21 October 2005, "Guru mediteaza in libertate" (Evenimentul Zilei)
9. ^ 23 October 2005, "Gregorian Bivolaru became a free man as per the ruling issued by the Swedish Supreme Court of Justice" (Evenimentul Zilei)
10. ^ (in Romanian) 17 December 2005, "Macovei cere verificarea cazului Gregorian Bivolaru" (Evenimentul Zilei)
11. ^ (in Romanian) 3 January 2006, "Suedia îi acordă azil politic lui Gregorian Bivolaru" (BBC Romanian)
12. ^ (in Romanian) 8 February 2006, "Doua condamnari pentru orgii sexuale" (România Liberă)
13. "APADOR-CH Annual Report 2004"
14. "APADOR-CH Annual Report 1997"
15. "Human Rights in the OSCE Region: Romania Report 2005 (Events of 2004)"
16. "CONCERNS IN EUROPE Amnesty International - January - June 1997"
17. "Amnesty International - Report 2005"
18. "SOJUST - Independent Report on the Justice System in Romania - Cap. V. HUMAN RIGHTS IN ROMANIA"
19. "U.S. State Department’s 2006 International Religious Freedom Report - Romania"
20. "Public instigations to persecution by High Officials against Gregorian Bivolaru and Yoga practitioners"
21. "Mass media campaign against Gregorian Bivolaru and MISA, 1990 - 2004"
22. "Mass media campaign against Gregorian Bivolaru and MISA starting with 18 March 2004"
23. "Articles regarding the Gregorian Bivolaru case in the international media"
24. "The Decision of The Supreme Court of Justice in Stockholm"
25. "Swedish expert, Karl Erik Nylund’s report on MISA and Gregorian Bivolaru"
26. "The Report on MISA and NATHA of the Swedish Sociologists from Skop-Research"

Referencing work

Numbering note - as reviewers identify note that can be converted into proper refs, they should be removed from the Notes section. This means the numbering of the notes will change. Because I refer to the note by number "first, second" etc. the list in the section above should be used to understand the numbering. Notes removed should not be removed from the section above, just use strike-throughh to identify which has been resolved and preserve the numbering.--SPhilbrickT 15:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

First note

• ^ (in Romanian) 16 April 2005, "Guru Bivolaru are mandat pentru crima organizata" (Evenimentul Zilei)

does not appear to be a currently valid reference

Perhaps the following is the correct reference? http://www.9am.ro/stiri-revista-presei/Social/8928/Guru-Bivolaru-are-mandat-pentru-crima-organizata.html

The reference was originally attached to the final sentence of the third paragraph of Legal Problems "On April 15, the Romanian Police issued a second warrant in his name, in which he was accused of "human trafficking and other charges related to organized crime" (related to an allegedly sequestration of some persons in some ashrams and forcing them to work without being paid." so I have attached it there. I hope someone will check it to see if it makes sense.

Checking now. ~dee^(talk?) 14:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

It's correct and makes perfect sense. ~dee^(talk?) 14:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The second note

• ^ (in Romanian) 5 April 2005, "Gregorian Bivolaru a fost arestat in Suedia" (S,tiri România On-Line)

No longer goes to an article, it seems to go to the main page of Romania Online. I did a site search for the title, but did not find it. However, I don't see how that foot note was used in the article, so I'll stop here.

I didn't find it either, but the website has some great info which we can use (making refs now). ~dee^(talk?) 14:55, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The third note

• ^ (in Romanian) 6 April 2005, "Cum a trecut Guru granita?" (Evenimentul Zilei)

Doesn't seem to work. (It is even listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dead_external_links/404/g as a 404)

It originally supported this sentence: In 1977, he was charged for distribution of pornographic materials and convicted to one year in prison, but he did not complete it due to a collective pardoning made by Nicolae Ceausescu.

Now reworded.--SPhilbrickT 14:51, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The fifth note

• ^ (in Romanian) 27 March 2004, "A evadat in '84 din arestul Securitatii" (Jurnalul Nat,ional)

This link no longer works. I think the right link might be:

• http://www.jurnalul.ro/special/special/a-evadat-in-a-84-din-arestul-securitatii-70890.html

This note originally supported the sentence: Gregorian Bivolaru studied at a high-school in Bucharest and starting 1971 he worked as a plumber at the Bucharest Metro

However, that sentence is no longer in the article.--SPhilbrickT 15:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

So, according to this article, he began (practicing) yoga at the age of 17 and joined the Antrepriza de Metrou Bucuresti as a plumber in 1971 (not teaching yoga classes). Should edit article to reflect such until we can find ref for when he began teaching yoga exactly. ~dee^(talk?) 15:16, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Finnish documentary

See [1] and [2]. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:45, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Argentinian controversy

See [3]. Now, is the guru haunted by world-wide conspiracy or simply a cult leader? Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Times of India coverage: [4]. 188.26.163.24 (talk) 05:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile you know, he was convicted in Romania. Valosu (talk) 18:01, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Italian inquiry

• http://www.lanazione.it/firenze/cronaca/2012/12/08/813852-yoga-indagine-inchiesta-violenza-sessuale-misa.shtml Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:05, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
• http://www.lanazione.it/firenze/cronaca/2012/12/07/813660-yoga-indagine-carabinieri-perquisizioni-indagati-violenza-sessuale.shtml Accusations of slavery and sexual abuse. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:25, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

POV added

On 14 June 2013, the High Court of Cassation and Justice of Romania definitively sentenced Gregorian Bivolaru to 6 years in prison, without suspension, for sexual acts with a minor (17 and 1/2 years old girl), D.M., who says she never had sexual relations with Gregorian Bivolaru, but she was forced to declare so after 10 hours of police investigation in absence of parents or layer. Furthermore he was acquitted for all the other charges against him (e.g. minor trafficking) For detalis see [5] "HRWF calls European Commission to check upon the legality of Gregorian Bivolaru's conviction by Romanian Court".

These are the notes before they where vandalised in June 2013. They include mr. Gregorian Bivolaru's site witch is a perfect valid source. Also I have added the Soteria international source with the HRWF Report about the case: [6] "HRWF calls European Commission to check upon the legality of Gregorian Bivolaru's conviction by Romanian Court". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.137.15.41 (talk • contribs)

I repeat here what I answered on my talk page: there are two sides of the coin: there are respectable human rights organizations which defended MISA, and not without due cause; there are also sexual scandals almost in every country wherein MISA set foot. My personal opinion is that sentencing Bivolaru to prison is a violation of human rights, since the man is incompetent to stand trial (addition: and acted out of insanity); however, neither the prosecution nor the defense pointed out this. Imho, Bivolaru is a paranoid schizophrenic and MISA members are consumers of his mystical delirium. Problem solved, but there are no reliable sources I know which say this. If one person has mystical delirium is called a mental problem; if many people have the same mystical delirium, it's called making use of the freedom of religion.

I also add that you should consider that for a Romanian to get political asylum in Sweden has to have happened lots of abuse from the authorities, since Romania is considered a safe country and Sweden customarily rejects Romanian asylum applicants if there is no hard evidence that an abuse has happened and they continue to be in danger from the authorities. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

You are a freemason. Why are you so concerned with mr Gregorian Bivolaru biography? Don't you think your opinions are a bit flawed, because he revealed the truth about your organizations? Why don't you mind only your own masonic masters? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.137.15.41 (talk) 19:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Read this: User:Ian.thomson/ChristianityAndNPOV. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I know a pass-phrase for getting immediate access to psychiatric care: "If people were to hold hands on the beach forming a spiral, this would be a way for contacting a powerful extraterrestrial civilization, asking them to come help humanity fight a global Satanic conspiracy run by Jews and Freemasons." But wait, this is what MISA members actually believe, see [7] (the part with the conspiracy is not on the video, but it is documented by the anti-masonic magazine published by MISA). Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:40, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Freemasonry is MISA's biggest problem. E.g., in Romania their problem lies with Eastern Orthodox hardliners who hate the guts of both MISA and Freemasonry. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Frankly, this is no longer a religious problem. He is wanted in France and Finland for being prosecuted for human trafficking. I mean: he got out of prison in Romania just in time to flee into hiding from being prosecuted in France and Finland. If there was a Romanian conspiracy against him, the authorities would have taken care of such problem. But, again, my view is that he cannot understand the charges against him, he thinks that he is hunted at the command of Reptilians and Intraterrestrials. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:44, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

If the above sounds like a BLP violation, consider this: he has been already declared legally insane (once) and his French lawyer (during extradition procedures) has pleaded that he is irresponsible for his own deeds. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:23, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Source for "sick man who needs therapy": https://www.libertatea.ro/ultima-ora/cecilia-tiz-fosta-membra-misa-bivolaru-este-un-om-bolnav-care-are-nevoie-de-tratament-2-1300079 Tgeorgescu (talk) 08:15, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

After the Revolution, he got out of prison (as legally insane) by saying the magic words "yoga teacher persecuted by the atheistic regime". He was then technically innocent, since yoga and porn have been decriminalized. Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:53, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Some psychiatrists believe that Gurus are unmedicated mild schizophrenics in a constant psychosis, I can also say the same exact thing here. You shout words that are true, but again, it has little to do with the article, and the situation here. Fadix 18:27, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 00:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Price, John S; Stevens, Anthony (1998). "The Human Male Socialization Strategy Set". Evolution and Human Behavior. 19 (1). Elsevier BV: 57–70. doi:10.1016/s1090-5138(97)00105-0. ISSN 1090-5138. Many studies of cults and revitalization movements have noted that the leaders are susceptible both to auditory hallucinations and sudden changes in beliefs. The schizotype, we suggest, is someone who has the capacity to shed the commonly held and socially determined world view of his natal group, and to create a unique and arbitrary world view of his own, into which he may indoctrinate others and become a prophet, or fail to indoctrinate others and become a psychotic patient.

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 17:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

The number of underage girls

An overview of the verdict is available at http://www.scj.ro/dosare.asp?view=detalii&id=100000000256023&pg=1&cauta= Therefrom results that there were three underage girls abused and/or trafficked by Mr. Bivolaru. So it is incorrect to draw the conclusion that only one minor was abused by him and that that would be false since she retracted her testimony. Another victim talked with the press after she reached adulthood and she did not change her viewpoint nor her testimony. Some Google search for her name (available at the mentioned URL) would sort this out. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Is not an ovwerview, is THE verdict. From the same link anyone who knows romanian can see that for the other two supposed victims he was aquitted because the offense does not exist or because it was prescribed (and also for other accusations: traffic, ....). I am surprised that you cant read that. Probably the masonic eye of your little architect is blinding you:

"În baza art. 11 pct. 2 lit. a raportat la art. 10 lit. a c.pr.pen. achita pe inculpatul Bivolaru Gregorian pentru savârsirea infractiunii de act sexual cu un minor prevazuta de art. 198 alin. 2 si 3 C.p. (p.vat. Simionescu Ilinca). În baza art. 11 pct. 2 lit. a raportat la art. 10 lit. d c.pr.pen. achita pe inculpatul Bivolaru Gregorian pentru savârsirea infractiunii de trafic de minori prevazuta de art. 13 alin. 1 si 3 teza 1 din Legea nr. 678/2001 (p.vat. Simionescu Ilinca). În baza art. 11 pct. 2 lit. b raportat la art. 10 lit.g c.pr.pen. înceteaza procesul penal pornit împotriva inculpatului Bivolaru Gregorian pentru savârsirea infractiunii de act sexual cu un minor în forma continuata prevazuta de art. 198 alin. 2 c.pen. cu aplicarea art. 41 alin. 2 si art.13 c.pen. ca urmare a intervenirii prescriptiei raspunderii penale (p. vat. Marques, fosta Muresan, Agness Arabella )."

The judicial case had a strange evolution. The supposed victim (Madalina Dumitriu) did not mmake any complaints, nor her relatives (until police came to them and pressured them to make one against mr. G.B., they revealed this during the trial). While she was still minor (a few weeks until 18) her house was raided by police in one morning in search for "evidence", she was raised from her bed, filmed only in underwear and broadcasted on all national TV stations without identity protection!!! After being held to the ground for hours and menaced with guns, she was taken out for "interrogation" to the prosecutors office(in absence of a layer or her parents) where she was violently threatened to sign a fake declaration. The next day she came back with a layer to retract her forced declaration. During the trial this declaration has disappeared from the file while the file contained the prosecutor answer to this second declaration.

Sources:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndgOY-pTIiE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJdV1pOUWCA

http://misatv.ro/martor-surpriza-in-cazul-procesului-lui-gregorian-bivolaru/

http://misatv.ro/procesul-lui-gregorian-bivolaru-se-apropie-de-sfarsit/

82.137.8.130 (talk) 06:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Exceeding the statute of limitations does not mean that he was innocent, it just passed too much time after the fact, so the punishment could no longer be applied. Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Notes

1. ^ (in Romanian) 16 April 2005, "Guru Bivolaru are mandat pentru crima organizata" (Evenimentul Zilei) - see also: "Court admits political persecution"
2. ^ (in Romanian) 5 April 2005, "Gregorian Bivolaru a fost arestat in Suedia" (Ştiri România On-Line)
3. ^ (in Romanian) 6 April 2005, "Cum a trecut Guru granita?" (Evenimentul Zilei)
4. ^ (in Romanian) 21 April 2005, "Guru Bivolaru a iesit ilegal din Romania" (Evenimentul Zilei)
5. ^ (in Romanian) 27 March 2004, "A evadat in '84 din arestul Securitatii" (Jurnalul Naţional)
6. ^ (in Romanian) "DECIZIA Nr.211 din 1 noiembrie 2000" (Legile Romaniei)
7. ^ (in Romanian) 1 April 2005, "Gabriel Bivolaru si Gregorian Bivolaru sunt frati" (stiri.kappa.ro)
8. ^ (in Romanian) 21 October 2005, "Guru mediteaza in libertate" (Evenimentul Zilei)
9. ^ 23 October 2005, "Gregorian Bivolaru became a free man as per the ruling issued by the Swedish Supreme Court of Justice" (Evenimentul Zilei)
10. ^ (in Romanian) 17 December 2005, "Macovei cere verificarea cazului Gregorian Bivolaru" (Evenimentul Zilei)
11. ^ (in Romanian) 3 January 2006, "Suedia îi acordă azil politic lui Gregorian Bivolaru" (BBC Romanian)
12. ^ (in Romanian) 8 February 2006, "Doua condamnari pentru orgii sexuale" (România Liberă)
13. ^ 2005,"Amnesty International - Report 2005"
14. ^ 2006, "U.S. State Department’s 2006 International Religious Freedom Report - Romania"
15. ^ 2004, "Public instigations to persecution by High Officials against Gregorian Bivolaru and Yoga practitioners"
16. ^ 1990-2004, "Mass media campaign against Gregorian Bivolaru and MISA, 1990 - 2004"
17. ^ 2004, "Mass media campaign against Gregorian Bivolaru and MISA starting with 18 March 2004"
18. ^ 2004-2008, "Articles regarding the Gregorian Bivolaru case in the international media"
19. ^ 2005, "Swedish expert, Karl Erik Nylund’s report on MISA and Gregorian Bivolaru"
20. ^ 2005, "The Report on MISA and NATHA of the Swedish Sociologists from Skop-Research"
21. ^ 2013, "HRWF calls European Commission to check upon the legality of Gregorian Bivolaru's conviction by Romanian Court"

82.137.15.41 20:51, June 19, 2013 (UTC +3)

The right to defend himself was denied for GB

Another aspect that overshadows the verdict is that mr Gregorian Bivolaru opinion was not heard during the trial at the Romanian Supreme Court. The judges have agreed to hear him through rogatory commission but after a while they changed their minds accusing the Swedish authorities of "superficiality and lack of seriousness" and hurriedly came to a final decision without offering the right to hearing to the defendant.

Sources: http://soteriainternational.org/en/misa-case/197-human-rights-without-frontiers-about-gregorian-bivolaru-conviction-20130617.html, http://misatv.ro/procesul-lui-gregorian-bivolaru-se-apropie-de-sfarsit/ 82.137.8.130 (talk) 06:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

He had lawyers defending him in the court, so it makes no real difference. He could have simply told his lawyers to read his viewpoint in court. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:27, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

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References

Multiple references on this page point to http://gregorianbivolaru.net . How is that in any way neutral? You might as well invite him to write his own Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.33.152.203 (talk) 00:26, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

The fact that his viewpoint or side gets cited does not mean that Wikipedia sides with Mr. Bivolaru. We pretty much prefer facts to opinions. Also stating that he is on the EU Most Wanted list is not meant as puffery. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

EU Most Wanted

He no longer appears on that list. What happened? Was he apprehended? Did he die? Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

"BIVOLARU, Gregorian". Europe's most wanted. 22 September 2017. Archived from the original on 26 November 2018. Retrieved 8 March 2019. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:53, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

17 years old

That cannot be true. The Romanian Penal Code provides punishment only if the minor is of age of less than 15 years. In case of changes in law, it is applicable the law most favorable to the suspect. There are some provisos for abuse of authority for older minors, e.g. by their teacher, but I doubt that were the case for Bivolaru. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

This point is made at https://bitterwinter.org/behind-the-bivolaru-case-1-some-incorrect-reports-about-misas-past-history/ tgeorgescu (talk) 18:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Oops. The court ruled that he was like her priest or teacher, having authority over her, so it was deemed sexual abuse even she was older than 15 at that time. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Certainly a criminal

The French and the Finnish Justice have their own brains, and made their own mind. They are not brainwashed by the Romanian Justice. Source: Interpol red notice, and EU most wanted (archived).

Thereupon can be no WP:NPOV dispute, so I removed that tag from the article.

I mean: being wanted by both Europol and Interpol after finishing his prison term in Romania is still a strong indication that he is considered a dangerous criminal.

He has a high IQ and he is self-learned, but I don't think he is aware of the real consequences of his actions. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:32, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully he will be: https://www.thelocal.fr/20231128/france-arrests-guru-and-40-others-in-raids-on-yoga-sect --Vlad|-> 15:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's not beat around the bush: he is batshit crazy. It is a big mistake for prosecutors to ignore this. His place is not in prison, but in a mental asylum. And by himself he is not particularly violent. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but in this case you should make your mind: you also wrote that he has a high IQ and self-learned. Seemingly, I agree with you though that keeping doing the same things over and over after 10 / 20 / 30 years, one that would be sane couldn't keep doing same things and expect different outcomes. Thank you for improving my edits! All the best! --Vlad|-> 16:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

High IQ and insane are not mutually exclusive. He thinks he leads the resistance movement which will save humanity from intraterrestrials. Why do people oppose him, according to him? Because they are intraterrestrials themselves or upon the payroll of intraterrestrials. This guarantees that he learns nothing from prison terms. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Frankly, you're a mason! :D Just joking, I'll see myself out! :D --Vlad|-> 17:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Conclusion: WP:NPOV and WP:BLP problems have been solved, there are enough mainstream sources cited in the article, there is no doubt that he is a criminal, and about "insane" sources have been cited both in the article as in the talk page. Jurnalul and Libertatea are mainstream press, and Ziarul de Iași is provincial mainstream press. All these three WP:V his mental problems. Add a fourth source, vice.com. And Romania TV is a mainstream TV broadcaster. So: five sources. Four media outlets having national coverage, one media outlet having provincial coverage, plus an online news website corroborate his mental troubles. Besides, he ticks all the check-boxes of paranoia: Judaeo-Masonic conspiracy, intraterrestrials, having contacts with extraterrestrial civilizations, comparing himself with Jesus Christ, and so on.

And, yup, the conclusion of the journalists who reported that he compared himself to Jesus Christ was not explicitly stated, but they were clearly mocking his mental capacities.

Another argument that he is completely crazy: he knew for a long time that France issued an European Arrest Warrant for him. And what he does? He goes to live in France! If his purpose wasn't to die in prison, relocating to France is insane.

One remark: I am not opposed to producing pornography. But there are rules/laws for doing it right. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

So, the facts for "criminal":

• he was sentenced and has executed a prison sentence in one country, then he was conditionally released (conditionally meaning that if he is suspected of committing more crimes, then his release gets cancelled before getting sentenced for the newer crimes—he no longer gets the presumption of innocence, meaning jailed first, judged later—of course, the prosecution still has to prove he is guilty, but he is not released from prison until his term expires or he is declared innocent—there are some exceptions for petty crimes, but he is not a petty criminal);
• he is now arrested in another country for extremely serious charges;
• he is wanted to be extradited in yet another country, again for extremely serious charges;
• the European Court of Human Rights ruled that his extradition from the second country to the first country did not violate his human rights.

And, yup, for me is hard to distinguish between him and his cult, but if someone wants to split this article, I have no objection. I mean: they still have to follow the procedures for requesting a split. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

So, even if Bivolaru is cleared of all wrongdoing in France (which is highly unlikely, since the French Justice is much more professional and heavy-handed than the Romanian Justice), he will remain in prison as awaiting deportation to another EU country. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Atman new name

In a German article it says that the organization has changed its name from Misa to Atman. https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Guru-von-Yoga-Sex-Sekte-in-Frankreich-festgenommen-article24564680.html --Riquix (talk) 13:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done tgeorgescu (talk) 02:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Languages

The article has WP:SOURCES in Romanian, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Finnish, and Dutch. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Mix of ideas linked to personality traits

The article should present more info which links his personality traits (obsessive phobic and schizotypal..) with his ideas and practices of MISA re favoring lesbianism and the rejection of male homosexuality. 109.166.137.255 (talk) 23:59, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Not opposed to it, but needs WP:SOURCES. Hint: both the prosecution and the defense neglected (mostly) his mental state. That is, he only pleaded legally insane during the extradition trial. I don't think he pleaded insanity in trials from Romania. On the contrary, he got a verdict that declaring him insane was political persecution. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Cult

The word "cult" appears 6 times inside our article (also counting the references). The words "sect", "secte", "sectă", "Sekte", or "Sekteleider" appear 15 times.

Counting on raw wiki text:

grep -ioh "\w*sect\w*" bivolaru.txt

Gives 25 results. Without once "sector" it's 24.

grep -ioh "\w*sekt\w*" bivolaru.txt

Gives 4 results.

grep -ioh "\w*cult\w*" bivolaru.txt

Gives 13 results. Without thrice "difficult" it's 10.

In total 38 mentions in wikitext. Why did I perform the search? In order to check whether Category:Cult leaders is supported by our article. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Another guru got arrested

A former disciple of Bivolaru got arrested in Romania. I decided not to write about that person inside the article, since it would be guilt by association. Just because that person once upon a time learned some stuff from Bivolaru, then went his own way, is not enough for this article. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)