Talk:German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Nominator: Buidhe (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: Catlemur (talk · contribs) 01:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I will start the review shortly.--Catlemur (talk) 01:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Catlemur, please be advised that there is an ongoing dispute on the talk page, which you are welcome to weigh in on. I really appreciate you snapping up the review so quickly, however, I agreed not to edit the article until the dispute is resolved. (t · c) buidhe 02:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Refs 20, 88 need to be pp. instead of p. since multiple pages are cited.
  • Done
• "experience during World War I]]" - Complete the wikilink and delink WWI in the following paragraph.
  • Done
• "These plans were mostly abandoned as they proved impossible to implement." - Why were they impossible to implement?
  • Reworded based on reread of the sources
• "which Kay cites as evidence" - Can you specify who Kay is?
  • Done
• In the Soviet prisoners of war by year of capture pie chart there is no description for the tiny orange part which I assume is 1945.
  • I could not make the label appear in Google Charts. I recreated the graph in Canva, but unfortunately I still can't figure out how to force the label for 0.6 percent of the total for 1945 to display. (t · c) buidhe 06:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
• Move the German language wikilink for collection point to first mention.
  • Done
• Before May 1942, when the order was rescinded → Before May 1942, when the Commissar Order was rescinded.
  • done
• "who defied German gender expectations and were supposed to be convinced communists" - What were the initial expectations? Women to be ardent communists? Maybe reword the sentence.
  • None of the sources go into detail about the Nazi/German gender roles, except Hartmann notes that female combatants were unheard of in the Wehrmacht. After checking the sources only Pohl mentions the stereotype of Red Army women being convinced communists, so I removed that part and linked Women in Nazi Germany so hopefully it reads clearer now. (t · c) buidhe 06:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
• "Many prisoners ran away because of the poor conditions in the camps," - Did they run away only because the conditions were poor or because they seized the opportunity to rejoin the Red Army or go back home for example?
  • This is the only reason given in the source. Escaping German occupied territory was not realistic because of the distance involved, and he is referring to a time before a large scale Soviet partisan movement formed
• "Particularly deadly assignments included road building projects, particularly in eastern Galicia" - Reword particularly to avoid repetition.--Catlemur (talk) 03:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Done

Sandboxing changes at User:Buidhe/Soviet POWs. (t · c) buidhe 06:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

• "The overall policy and camps in areas under civilian administration, the responsibility for these camps fell to the prisoner of war department of the Allgemeines Wehrmachtsamt [de] under the OKW." - Reword.
  • Done
• "Soviet civilians who tried to provide food were often shot" and "Although Soviet civilians often attempted to provide food to starving prisoners of war, they were typically forbidden to do so because food supplies for the occupation forces were prioritized." - Those two sentences need to either be merged or follow one another.
  • done
• "Tatars, Turkic peoples, Cossacks, and Caucasus people were now eligible.[120]" - Turkic peoples links to the minor Turkish ethnic minority, did you mean Turkic peoples instead? Tatars are also Turkic by the way. Maybe change Caucasus people to Caucasians.
  • I ended up removing this clause because it is covered elsewhere in the military recruitment section
• Wikilink silencers.
  • Done
• Flossenbürg linked twice in the same section.
  • I always thought it was best to link both in the caption and running text, although MOS is ambiguous on this point.
• Both labor and labour are used in the article, this is inconsistent.--Catlemur (talk) 03:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Inconsistency is now eliminated except for quotes. Thanks for your review! (t · c) buidhe 05:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

• The works by Hartmann are not listed in alphabetic order like the rest.
  • Multiple works by the same author are in chronological order—that's how it's usually done, as far as I can tell.

What I meant was that Hartmann's works are listed below Kay's, so the alphabetic order is not followed.--Catlemur (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Provide translations of source titles which are written in languages other than English through |trans-title=
  • Done
• Provide publisher for Edele, Mark (2016).
  • I don't provide publishers for either of the journal articles
• Add access dates for online sources.
  • All of the sources were accessed via a permanent published version that is not subject to change.
• Add |authorlink= for Keller in Further reading.
  • Done
• If Calvocoressi, Porter, Goldhagen and Jones (refs 224, 225, 237 and 238) end up being used, they need to be incorporated into Works cited and have a similar footnote style with the rest of the article.--Catlemur (talk) 01:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
  • I realize this, but I am arguing for non-inclusion. (t · c) buidhe 06:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• "Of nearly six million that were captured, around 3 million died during their imprisonment." - Either 6 million and 3 million, or six million and three million per MOS:NUMERAL.
  • Fixed
• I think the first paragraph should mention that it all happened during World War II.
  • Done
• Since Hartmann's claim that it was "one of the greatest crimes in military history" is referenced and mentioned in the main body of the article, I reckon the citation in the lede is not needed.
  • Per MOS:CITELEAD, quotations should have a source even if they are in the lead. Also, without this citation a reader must visit the body to find out who said it.
• Do we have any info on how the German navy and air force treated prisoners?--Catlemur (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  Most of the sources don't address this question at all. Overmans has quite some detail about how the organization/structure worked for each of the branches, but very little on how prisoners are treated. All he says on the latter is that Luftwaffe use of forced labor on the eastern front didn't lead to the establishment of formal POW camps subordinated to the Luftwaffe command structure, and "For dealing with these POWs, who were not airmen but rather “labor” prisoners, the Luftwaffe had no treatment guidelines of its own; therefore, the relevant orders of the Field Army were applied here." I'm not sure if that's worth a mention. (t · c) buidhe 21:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-B21845, Sowjetische Kriegsgefangene im Lager (b).jpg should get proper attribution instead of "This is an enlarged and enhanced version of an existing Wikimedia photo". Maybe merge it with the original photo.--Catlemur (talk) 17:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Replaced, it looks like more pixels but not more information (t · c) buidhe 18:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• "was rejected by Hitler several weeks after the start of the war.[26] On 30 March 1941, German dictator Adolf Hitler stated privately" → "was rejected by German dictator Adolf Hitler several weeks after the start of the war.[26] On 30 March 1941, Hitler stated privately"
  • Done
• Why is citation 60 located after the word Additionally and not after the full stop?
  • Moore mentions non Red Army personnel being registered as a cause of the discrepancy, but is not as specific and therefore does not support most of the rest of the sentence.
• Wikilink calories. Move Caucasian, Sabotage and death march wikilinks to first mention.
  • Done
• The Balts wikilink in the racial hierarchy section only refers to Latvians and Lithuanians but as far as I understand Estonians also received the same treatment as the former.
  • I think you are right but the source just says balts. I will look for another source. Edit : looked and can't find anything, every source mentions the difference in treatment but not the details why.
• Why is the pay the prisoners received measured in cents? Didn't the Germans use marks and pfennig?
  • Moore says "cents" but I checked his sources and confirmed that he means Reichsmarks
• "killings of Jews during July to October 1942." → "killings of Jews between July and October 1942."-Catlemur (talk) 09:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Done (t · c) buidhe 20:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Buidhe: I think the article in the form it is currently found in draftspace is good to go for GA. Once it is moved to mainspace and it is stable, I will be happy to promote it.--Catlemur (talk) 03:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Catlemur I think we're stable now, so as long as you're ok with the source added we should be good. (t · c) buidhe 01:57, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail: --Catlemur (talk) 10:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Drive-by comment

Hello, I wonder if the article title might be considered as part of the review. In the current title, "committed", in my view, doesn't add anything to "German atrocities against Soviet prisoners of war". I think a change is worth considering per WP:CONCISE. —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really happy with the article title. Among other things, it fails to capture the full scope of the article, which extends beyond "atrocities" to treatment of say captured Soviet Germans. However, article titles are not part of GA criteria to my understanding. (t · c) buidhe 08:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)