Talk:Frederick E. Olmsted

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Frederick E. Olmsted/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Esculenta (talk · contribs) 14:30, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I will take on this review. Hope to have comments up in a day or two. Esculenta (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Here is my initial set of comments. I'll let you think about these and be back later to assess other GA criteria. Esculenta (talk) 15:30, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead

• please link relevant terms in the lead: forester, forestry, Forests of the United States, Forest management done
• the lead currently doesn't do a great job of summarizing the article contents. Things that could be mentioned:

• the connection to Frederick Law Olmsted, highlighting the significance of the familial influence on his career done Comment: Other than the family tree, this is really speculation. FLO was 20 years older than his half-brother (Fritz's father) and was in a major health decline around the time Fritz started his career. Online, I cannot find any reference that describes FLO's relationship with his half-siblings and/or their children. Fritz's brother-in-law wrote that FLO Jr. suggested Fritz work with the USGS (and I found Fritz and FLO Jr. were at Yale at the same time) but I can find nothing else to prove a working or social connection.
• Olmsted's instrumental role in establishing the Muir Woods National Monument done
• his role in the evolution of the U.S. Forest Service's administrative practices, such as his revision of the Forest Reserve Manual done
• his involvement in shaping California's system of national forests done
• contributions as an educator and his role as a consulting forester at Harvard UniversityHe only taught at Harvard one semester and I found no info other than that which is already included in the lede. I split that sentence for clarity and explained more about his role as a consultant.

Early life and education

• should mention his birthdate Done
• link landscape design, topography Done
• "Olmsted went to Hartford Public High School" might want to clarify which Olmstead, as the previous sentence discusses Frederick Law See if it works better now. I hate to randomly say "Fritz".
• what is a Ph.B.? A Class Cup Committee? done
• any context for the "Pisgah Quadrangle"? That was a good catch; I added USGS map and linked to the article on USGS quadrangle maps
• "In 1899, he studied forestry under Deitrich Brandis at the University of Munich, receiving a diploma in 1899.[7][8][12] In November 1899 " maybe reword a bit to remove the repetitive mentions of 1899. Done
• The details of Olmsted's education at Yale University are separated by information about his family, which interrupts the flow. Consider grouping educational details together. So it was in chronological order, with Olmsted working and going to the Biltmore Forest School before going to Harvard for botany classes. Work and BFS are difficult to separate because work was required to attend BFS at that time (on-the-job training). Also, his time at BFS was probably more important than Harvard, as were his other experiential learning in Europe. But I created an early career section to split the text. Let me know which version you think makes the most sense.
• "The sentence, "He also attended the earliest incarnation of the Biltmore Forest School which was founded by Schenck." is slightly ambiguous. It could be interpreted as Olmsted attending the school at its inception or attending a version of the school that was different from its later form. Clarifying this could be beneficial. Both are actually true, so at least I did convey that. I added the date it was established which I think helps explain that Olmsted was there in its beginnings.
• Deitrich Brandis should be "Dietrich" Done and thanks!

Career

• are Olmstead's underlings at the division of forestry likely to be notable (particularly the ones for which the first names couldn't be found)? Consider removing these redlinks. removed links to all but two (and his former partners elsewhere in the article) that are notable/article-worthy based on a quick search.
• "Beginning in 1908, he was the chief inspector of District 5 or a district forester" bit confusing, was he either or both? It was both. Should be clearer now.
• useful links: Nevada, Congress, fire protection, grazing, reforestation Done
• "In this era, "the district forester was likened to being an 'autonomous king' and overlord of a domain—controlled only by laws broadly interpreted and by general policy."" and later "His team also sought to save the "West from itself through public forestry and with the West's consent and support, to break the monopoly and favor the little man."" quotes should mention who said them Done
• any backstory about Olmstead leaving Fisher, Bryant and Olmsted after only a year? I found and added a few more details, but nothing too specific. The firm had 5 partnership/name changes in 6.5 years between various college friends, so it may have been unsuccessful or a convenience for specific jobs. But that is speculation on my part.
• He created regulations to prevent fires on the Canadian railways." working as a consulting forester in San Francisco? any more details? Response: Not that I have found; I think his consultancies were mostly proprietary/unpublished reports. Maybe there is more about Canada on page 2 of the society's obituary which is behind a $35 paywall. I am not that curious.
• where he specialized "in inspection of logging operations with a view to efficient utilization of material and future productiveness of cut-over lands; systematic protection against fire; timber estimates and appraisals; topographic mapping; and logging plans." Is it necessary to quote this material? Looks like it could just be reworded and integrated into text … Done
• It’s mentioned that the Division of Forestry was established in 1900, but then that Pinchot was fired and replaced in 1910. Given the importance of Pinchot to the narrative, consider adding some context about his tenure and why he was replaced. Good idea. I linked to Pinchot–Ballinger controversy.

Professional affiliations

• do we know how long Olmsted was president for? Done

Personal life

• "In 1911, the family moved to Boston, Massachusetts, and lived at 21 Lime Street." I think his non-notable street address could be considered trivial information for a Wikipedia article. However, I did Google it and saw that this brick-finished 3-bedroom 5 bath townhouse is now for sale (~4 million). Done, that's more than double what it sold for in 2013.

Publications

• <should be titled "Selected publications" unless these are all of them. If these are all of them, please state so, as well as a citation from where this list was obtained. Done
• currently, there are citations after the publications but this is not really the way to do these (and it artificially bloats the citations list, as some of the citations are effectively self-citations). Instead of having this:

• "A Working Plan for Forest Lands near Pine Bluff, Arkansas." U.S. Department of Agriculture, Bureau of Forestry Bulletin No. 32, 1902.[31]

Consider reformatting to this (cite template not necessary, but handy):

• Olmsted, Frederick E. (1902). A Working Plan for Forest Lands Near Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Bulletin 32 (Report). Washington, D.C.: United States Department of Agriculture Bureau of Forestry. Government Printing Office.

This way the reader gets all of the relevant bibliographic information in the listing itself (including a link to the document, where available) I really appreciate your thought on this. Early days, another editor told me that I had to provide an ISBN number or document with a citation. And, of course, to avoid external links. Trying to find one place in MOS that fits this situation is difficult, but I don't have any issue with your suggestion as it is what most editors do. Some of the items are now online since I worked on this article, so that was good to update. I added OCLC numbers to some publications that are scarce and not available online. I found a source that talked about how the forestry division did not submit copies in the normal way in its early days, meaning that the copies are often not housed with federal institutions. I remember finding an OCLC template previously, but it seems to be inactive through the visual editor at this time. I am a visual editor user whenever possible, meaning that I prefer to let Hathi Trust, etc. create a pastable citation rather than using cite template, but as you say, it is not required by MOS.

• Question: just realized that I used "The Evern Changing View" a lot without specifying pages (something I did as a newbie without thinking about GA). Do you agree that I should fix this? Rublamb (talk) 21:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I hadn't really gotten to examining sources yet, but I just downloaded the document. 600+ pages! Luckily, copy-paste/find works, but I wouldn't want to have to be the one searching for the information to verify it (hint) :) Esculenta (talk) 21:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC) Done

• thanks for making those additions and changes, the article reads slightly more fleshed out now
• I've boldly made a bunch of new links I think would be useful, and a few copyedits. I won't feel bad if you revert changes you don't like
• check to make sure everything in the lead is also in the article text; see in particular the final lead sentence Done
• please supply more bibliographic information about citation #13 (The Hollister family of America: Lieut John Hollister of Wethersfield, Connecticut and his descends. p. 516) (or remove? it seems to be duplicative of other citations) Done

Esculenta (talk) 01:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Your additions were great and the links are going to be helpful to readers (you are great at thinking outside the box to find links). Do you have any other suggestions? Thanks. Rublamb (talk) 14:09, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I made a few more copyedits and added a link I found to one of Olmstead's publications. Ok, I think we're about done here. For the record, Both images in the article are public domain (and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions). I spot checked several of the online sources (thanks for adding page #'s!) and am satisfied that the article text is backed up by the sources with suitable paraphrasing. The article is broad in its coverage and well-written, and so seems to meet all of the GA criteria. Promoting now. Esculenta (talk) 22:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 talk 12:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Frederick E. Olmsted, one of the founders of the national forest system in the United States, was the nephew of acclaimed landscape designer Frederick Law Olmsted? Source:
• Pinchot, Gifford; Sherman, E.A.; Bryant, Ralph (1925). "Notes: Frederick Erskine Olmsted". Journal of Forestry: 701 – via Google Books. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Forestry/JPjzAAAAMAAJ?hl=en
• "Frederick Erskine Olmsted, Ph.B, 1894" (PDF). Obituary Record of Yale Graduates: Bulletin of Yale University. 21 (22): 1495. August 1, 1925 – via Connecticut General Assembly.https://www.cga.ct.gov/hco/books/Obituary_Record_of_Grads_Yale_1859-1924.pdf
  • Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by Rublamb (talk). Self-nominated at 20:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Frederick E. Olmsted; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I'll take this review. Dwkaminski (talk) 11:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting: - n

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Dwkaminski (talk) 12:08, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Review Comments:

• New Enough - updated to good article on Oct. 7th and submitted for DYK on 10/10
• Long Enough - character count (without infobox and notes/references) shows 34,223 characters
• Extremely well sourced
• neutral tone in writing
• plagiarism free - copyvio detector showed 10.7% - violation unlikely
• hook interesting? - I think it could be improved. I struggle with "one of the founders of the national forest system in the United States". Without any reference or wikilink I'm not sure everyone will know what the national forest system is. I also like to see the notability put on the subject, not relative to someone else. Now a reader has to know or learn who Frederick Law Olmsted is. What do you think of ALT1: ....Frederick E. Olmstead was instrumental in the creation of over twenty national forests in California, including the Muir Woods National Monument?
• No picture used
• QPQ not required - user has only done 3 DYKs
• @Rublamb: I've completed my review. Great article and extremely well sourced! See my proposed ALT1 and let me know what you think. Dwkaminski (talk) 20:36, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
• @Dwkaminski: I almost submitted that, so I am fine with ALT1. Thanks for catching the QPQ issue. Rublamb (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
• Approving ALT1 Dwkaminski (talk) 22:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
• @Rublamb, Dwkaminski, and Fritzmann2002: Hmm, a couple of issues here. Reviewers can't approve their own hooks, and I'm not sure where "at least twenty" or sole credit to Olmsted can be found in the source. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:17, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• @Theleekycauldron:Now the delay makes sense! You are correct that the source does not provide a number; it provides the names of the parks that I included in the article. Although counting comes up with that number for a summary, I agree it is not as clean as one would like for a DYK source (which is why I did not submit it as a hook). My first thought is to go back to my original hook. There are national forests in every state and his uncle is widely known because he designed Central Park. What do you think? Rublamb (talk) 21:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
  • I'm not opposed to using the original ALT beyond the personal preferences I expressed before. I would recommend to wikilink national forest if you decide to go back to that one. I would argue that the references in the intro section in support of "Olmsted was instrumental in the creation of over 20 national forests in CA including the Muir Wood National Monument" are strong. I would recommend expanding the page coverage in the USDA reference from just page 88 to 85-88. It would then cover Olmsted's placement as head of California Inspection district 5 and the full list of CA national forests. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• @Dwkaminski:@Theleekycauldron:, Page range is corrected. Dwkaminski, that was an excellent catch. I added the page numbers for GA nomination, at least a year after writing the article, and clearly did not get that one right. Does this now address any concerns regarding sourcing? I am agreeable to whatever you think is best. Rublamb (talk) 17:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
  • @Rublamb: Help me through the verification step on this one – on p. 88, I'm seeing that by the end of Olmsted's influence, there were only nineteen national forests in California. What am I missing on that one? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

• • • The USDA article does add up to 19 national parks in CA. If you add the other reference of his involvement in Muir Woods - that reaches twenty. Makes sense to remove "over" and go with ALT1a: ....Frederick E. Olmsted was instrumental in the creation of over twenty national forests in California, including the Muir Woods National Monument?Dwkaminski (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
      • I found the same. 19 listed in the article (all correctly sourced to USDA p. 88), plus Muir Woods (Source: "Establishing Muir Woods National Monument". Save the Redwoods League. 2015-01-09.) The reason I stated at least 20 in the lede is that some of the 19 were formed were mergers of pre-existing national forests that are not included in the long list. As mentioned on p. USDA 88. Santa Barbara National Forest was formed from Stanislaus National Forest and San Jacinto National Forest, and Modoc National Forest was formed from part of Warner National Forest. Other national forests that were not listed in the article are San Luis Obispo National Forest and Stony Creek National Forest, again mentioned on USDA p. 88. So we know of 25 with Muir, although only 20 still exist because of mergers. It looks like we should add the Muir source for the hook. He also is responsible for Tongass National Forest in Alaska, so I have updated to lede to include Alaska. Rublamb (talk) 14:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
        • At least from the USDA source, I see San Luis Obispo as being incorporated into Santa Barbara and Stony Creek being incorporated into the California National Forest. It doesn't say Olmsted was instrumental in creating those parks that were incorporated into the other parks. I would leave Tongass out of the DYK and stay with ALT1a - twenty vs over twenty is not signficant in my mind. Let's see where @Theleekycauldron: is on this. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 15:19, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
    • @Theleekycauldron:, Does the discussion above answer your question? Rublamb (talk) 22:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
      • @Dwkaminski and Rublamb: is Muir Woods a national forest? National monuments seem to be distinct... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
        • @Theleekycauldron:, No, not the same. National forests can be chopped, while a monument is protected. Also, a monument is part of the National Park Service which reports to the Dept. of Interior. National Forests are under the Forest Service which is part of the Dept. of Agriculture. Having lived in an area that was surrounded by both national parks and national forests, their outreach staff spend a lot of time explaining the difference. Successfully, I guess, as I can answer your question. LOL> Rublamb (talk) 10:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
        • @Theleekycauldron and Rublamb: So ALT1a doesn't make sense then. How about ALT2: ....Frederick E. Olmsted was instrumental in the creation of nineteen national forests and the Muir Woods National Monument in California? Dwkaminski (talk) 13:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
          • Works for me! Do we wanna add the other two people involved for extra flavor? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:37, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
            • Do you mean Gifford Pinchot and Theodore Roosevelt? I'd say not, but it's up to @Rublamb:. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
            • Pinchot got plenty of coverage in history. I think maybe focus on Olmsted this time. Thanks for asking. Rublamb (talk) 13:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
              • @Theleekycauldron: Since I proposed ALT2 - will you approve? I'm sure @Rublamb: would like to see this wrapped up. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
• We seem to be stuck with this review. If @Theleekycauldron: won't finalize this - can someone else take over the review since I proposed hook ALT2 ad can't approve it myself. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 18:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
  • can go with it :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:03, 21 November 2023 (UTC)