Talk:Croats of Serbia

Recent edits

1) We have no sources for Spartak. 2) Djokovic, Mihajlovic and Dokic can't be included based on their maternal Croatian origin. Not to mention that Mihajlovic and Djokovic are Serb nationalists. Sources presented are not good enough to meet WP:RS and WP:BLP. 3) Josif Pancic is of Bunjevac origin, not Croatian. This was ignored, for some unknown reason. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

How do you mean they can't be included based on ther maternal Croatian origin? What they should have paternal Croatian origin to be Croatians? What nationalists have to do with someone's Croatian mother? You have an article about Josif Pancic and put the latest scientific article or book which speaks about his Bunjevac or Serbian origin. I put information from scientific article(2014) that he is a Croat. Maybe someone ignored that he was of Croat origin? If sources are not WP:RS then we will leave mothers in their articles without origin, country of birth, city of birth. We will just write Novak Djokovic has a mother with name and surname. If this is your wish then you have different ways to resolve this issue, for now they are and Croats. Mikola22 (talk) 17:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I do not understand. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 17:32, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I guess you want that articles about them be written in this way. "Novak Djokovic was born on May 22, 1987, in Belgrade, Serbia. Father Srdjan and mother Dijana owned the company Family Sports".[1] That's fine but there are sources which offer more informations and I think we have to respect and this sources. Mikola22 (talk) 13:38, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I honestly do not understand. Please communicate. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 14:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

In the articles which talk about the origins of some famous persons, sportsmens etc exist sources which speak about the origin of the mother and father of this persons.. It is case and in the article of Novak Djokovic, etc. If in your opinion existing sources in this articles are WP:RS and WP:BLP and this is later confirmed by Wikipedia community then we no longer have any informations about the origin of the Novak Djoković mother because nothing exists specifically. We are left with what I have stated "Father Srdjan and mother Dijana". I guess that's your wish? You talk as if exist 100 sources which mention the origin of his mother and since these couple sources in the article are not good we will replace them with the other 90. Sources in the article are what we have for now. Mikola22 (talk) 18:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry but no - not good enough. Claiming Dokic and Mihajlovic to be Croats of Serbia is ludicrous: they lived for only a couple of years in Serbia and they are Serbs of Croatia with maternal Croatian roots, which was not that uncommon in Yugoslav times. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean by “not that uncommon in Yugoslav times”? Do you mean mixed marriages or specifically Croat roots from the maternal side? Also how is it not belittling or insulting to women to deem the paternal roots relevant and maternal roots not? A Serb Croatia could have paternal or maternal Serb roots and still qualify as a Serb of Croatia. Unless there is some rule by Wikipedia that says otherwise? I understand your point about the few years in Serbia unless they were born there. As for Djokovic, he was a Serbian patriot but he himself says he is above nationalism. Here is a book about him that is a better RS about heritage than the news sites. [1] He states he put himself “above the nationalist conferva” and doesn’t care when people call him Croat or Serb as he sees them as the same. So to paint him as some nationalist doesn’t make sense. Of course he is still Serbian. OyMosby (talk) 19:35, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Siniša Mihajlović is a Serbian professional football manager and former footballer. How then is Siniša Mihajlović Serbian footballer when he lived in Serbia for a couple of years? Jelena Dokić lived in Serbia for several years and formally acquired right to be part of Croats of Serbia notable people section. Article "List of Serbs of Croatia: This is a list of notable Serbs of Croatia, ethnic Serbs who were born in, lived, or trace their origins to the territory that is present-day Croatia."[2] Jelena Dokić as ethnic Croatian lived in Serbia. Everything is clean. Mikola22 (talk) 20:19, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Mikola22 I agree with Sadko in that it is hard to follow what you are trying to make a point about exactly?OyMosby (talk) 20:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

They lived in Serbia. If someone as a Serb has acquired right to be on the List of Serbs of Croatia if he lived in Croatia then Jelena Dokić has the same right. She as ethic Croat lived in Serbia. Mikola22 (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Mixed marriages were common. I do not care for ideological notions which are popular in Postmodernism. Paternal origin remains the more important for European/Balkan nations, unless the person in question claims otherwise. It is the opposite for Jews. That is common knowledge.

Dokic lived only for a short period in Serbia, do not ignore these facts. Not to mention that her father is a notorious Chetnik activist. Mihajlovic is also a Serb patriot who has lived for a short period of time in Serbia and he had several chauvinistic statements about Croatia, Crotian kuna and etc. It makes very little sense. There is no real feedback or arguments offered @Mikola22. You can't include Djoker because of his maternal origin, but you can include Dražen Petrović as a Serbs of Croatia because his father was a Serb. There is a difference, regardless of personal opinions on the subject. Furthermore, new (contested) additions actually need a wider consensus. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:08, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

You are actually saying that someone from Croatia is on the list of Croatian Serbs because someone father is a Serb from Croatia? But the article says and lived in Croatia. As long that fact exists in the article it must be applied everywhere equally. Novak Djokovic's mother is a Croatian who gave birth a son in Serbia, and he should be Croat from Serbia. Mikola22 (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Utter nonsense. We seem to be going in circles. As there is no consensus, I would suggest that @Mikola22 removes his recent edits. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Josif Pančić came to Serbia as an ethnic Croat and lived in Serbia, and he is a Croat from Serbia. Dijana Djoković mother of Novak Djokovic is born in Belgrade and she is Croatian, her son is of Croatian origin from Serbia ie Croat of Serbia. Jelena Dokić came to Serbia as an ethnic Croat and lived in Serbia, and she is a Croat from Serbia. Siniša Mihajlović came to Serbia as an ethnic Croat and lived in Serbia, and he is a Croat from Serbia. Jovan Petrović was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina and came to live in Croatia, his son Dražen Petrović is Serb from Croatia. An article about Serbs in Croatia says that someone is on the list if he lived in Croatia and have Serbian ethnic origin. Father of Dražen Petrović Jovan he also has the right to be on the list of Serbs from Croatia because he lived in Croatia, also Novak Djokovic's mother has the right to be on the list of Croats from Serbia because she lived and still lives in Serbia. Josip Pančić or Stjepan Filipović who were born in Croatia as Croats they lived in Serbia and they are on the list of Croats of Serbia. If their descendants were known and famous today, they would be on the list of Croats from Serbia. And as for maternal and paternal origin there is no difference, it's the same thing. Mikola22 (talk) 04:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Try to read other user's comments, do not just ignore them. Stonewalling is not a good way to go and it will get us nowhere. No, it is not the same thing. I am challenging these latest additions, and I can conclude that we have no consensus, as there is no willingness to cooperate and no offer of some sort of middle solution was given. For the last time, please undo your latest additions, especially those which fall under WP:BLP. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Father of Dražen Petrović is Serb from Bosnia and Herzegovina, mother of Novak Djoković is Croat from Serbia. Dražen Petrović is Serb of Croatia because his father is a Serb who lived in Croatia and has Serb origin. Novak Djoković is Croat of Serbia because his mother is a Croat who lived or living in Serbia and has Croatian origin. Everything is clean if we apply the rules equally, the case of Novak Djoković cannot be unfounded and case of Dražen Petrović founded because it's about the same thing. WP:BLP, source for Novak Djoković exist in his article for ten years, if is stated there that his mother is Croatian we must respect this fact from his article as well as sources that talk about it. If this information is not accurate and the sources are not reliable then Reliable sources procedure must be initiated first and after this when that process is over we coming here and we make changes in accordance with conclusion of that process. Until then, we must respect the current situation. That is my opinion and you seek consensus for your actions. Mikola22 (talk) 16:54, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

@Mikola22 I think it would be better during this conversation to remove the newly added person you included in the article. That way discussion can continue for the time being until an agreement or consensus is reached. OyMosby (talk) 23:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

In order to reach a consensus you have to say your opinion, regarding Novak Djoković thing is clear. As for the rest state which persons are for reaching consensus and give a specific opinion about each one. You can also talk about everyone on this list. The consensus established here must be applied to all articles, so we in this discussion can give examples and from other articles. Let's say that Novak Djokovic has no consensus here, then we have to discuss the same case, ie Drazen Petrovic, as well as other peoples with a similar situation in this and other articles such as Croats of Slovenia, Serbs of Slovenia etc. It is important that rules are applied equally. Here are some examples Croats of Slovenia: Robert Kranjec ski-jumper born in Maribor to a Croat father, Jelko Kacin politician born in Celje to a Croat mother, Stipe Modrić former basketball player and coach born in Sinj to a Croat father etc. Serbs of Slovenia: Zoran Janković born in the village of Saraorci near the town of Smederevo in Serbia to a Serb father and a Slovene mother, Simona Škrabec Slovenian-Catalan author and translator (Serbian father), Goran Janus (Serbian father), Spomenka Hribar (born 25 January 1941) in Belgrade to a Serb father (Radenko Diklić) and a Slovene mother (Marija Jelica Mravlje), Slovenes of Croatia: Josip Broz Tito Slovene mother , Martina Majerle (born May 2, 1980 in Opatija, Croatia) mixed Croatian and Slovenian descent, Mira Furlan was born in Zagreb to a Croatian-Jewish mother and a father of Slovene-Croat heritage, Dubravko Šimenc was born in Zagreb to Slovene father etc etc. Mikola22 (talk) 05:56, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Novak Djokovic is a world-famous star who is in the media almost every day, there would certainly be a huge number of reliable sources in many languages ​​for any important information about him. Also: WP:CCC. When sources said that his mother is “Croatian origin”, we cannot know whether she may be from a Serb, Yugoslav, Slovene (Žagar is very common surname among them) or Jewish family in Croatia or from a so-called mixed marriage. Only a few Croatian sources speak in the context of ethnicity and use the same sentence over the years (they even seem to use sh. and hr. Wikipedia as a source), without explaining how they came to this information. Only Serbian sources who claim the same is the tabloid Kurir, which is definitely not RS. According to WP:BLP: Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source.--WEBDuB (talk) 12:44, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

WEBDuB if the source says that she is Croatian then she is Croatian, you would change something to be what she is not.

First, you need to sign your messages. Further, that is not the only argument. We do not have good reliable sources on ethnicity.--WEBDuB (talk) 13:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Go do an interview with her and ask her what it is when you are interested in it.

I don't think Novak Djokovic's family would be ashamed if Dijana Djokovic were of Serbian origin from Croatia or someone else’s origin. In Novak Djoković article on Wikipedia exist this information which we must respect "and maternal Croatian descent". If this information is not correct or sources which prove it are incorrect, a procedure must be started on that article to determine it or through Wikipedia possibilities. After it is established with a final decision then we can use that fact here. For now, we must respect Novak Djoković article and its information and use it as an indisputable fact. There must be some procedure and I guess you know what to do? Mikola22 (talk) 13:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

WEBDuB I suggest you do an interview with her and change that there, and delete it here too. You should also ask his father if he is a Serb or a Montenegrin, some sources say that he is a Montenegrin, some that he is a Serb. Do an interview with them and let us know.

You need to sign messages, respect other users even if they don't agree with you and use a decent vocabulary and tone. Mikola22, the "maternal Croatian descent" formulation is Ok, but "maternal Croat descent" (including mention in an article about Croats in Serbia) is information that is not supported by reliable, neutral and up-to-date sources.--WEBDuB (talk) 13:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't know sign messages. If it says he has maternal Croatian descent, then she is Croatian, because if it was Slovenian or otherwise, it would be written" maternal Croatian-Slovenian descent" or Slovenian or other, you have stupid questions you are still editing articles.Do an interview and let us know who is what. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.138.245 (talk) 14:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

(is information that is not supported by reliable, neutral and up-to-date sources.) You know what to do in that case, start procedure to determine listed sources as not reliable sources. Once that process is complete we are returning here for edit. Mikola22 (talk) 14:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Here's the signature. It's automatic. I didn't know it as well as you didn't. Maybe there will be a signature again now that I wrote it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.138.245 (talk) 14:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Sign your posts on talk pages: Here you have sign and after you finish answering, press that sign at the end of the sentence. Mikola22 (talk) 14:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

What we just had seems like a case of an IP which writes in the same way that you do. That's strange. Considering that 3 editors so far have stated that there is no consensus for these additions, I would once again kindly ask that you revert yourself. Read WP:BLP. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 08:58, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you used that IP without even knowing it yourself? It would be best that you report this so then we would know if you used that IP or someone else. Mikola22 (talk) 11:41, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Novak Djokovic's mother is Croatian

Mother of Novak Djoković is Croatian and source say that [3](kada joj je Srđanova majka rekla da sam Hrvatica, "when Srdjan's mother told her that I was a Croat"). Considering that Novak Djokovic's mother was born in Belgrade and lived in Serbia, the mention of being a Croat means that she is of Croatian origin. Source does not say that she is from Belgrade, from Serbia or from Croatia. She is Croatian ie Croat of Serbia and Belgrade. Mikola22 (talk) 10:42, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Mikola22: While I disagree with a user labeling the inlcusion of Novak Djokovic as “Croatian Ultranationalist Propaganda” apparently being of Croat ethnicity is evil thing, we need better sources that are more concrete that say his mother is a Croat. Sources are scarce on that even though most likely she is. OyMosby (talk) 00:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@OyMosby and Tezwoo: Obviously for the English Wikipedia we need better sources, so there is no point going into edit wars. When better quality sources come then we will edit the article. In any case, his mother is an ethnic Croat and there is no dilemma here. Mikola22 (talk) 05:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

• The inclusion of Djokovic in the Croat-Serb rivalry had caused incidents covered in RS, eg [4]. Interested editors might write some relevant content somewhere. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:23, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• The situation is quite clear - we do not call Ante Starčević or Skanderbeg Serbs because their mother were Serb. Are you dudes suggesting that we make it a practice? That would be interesting. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Same way as one from Croatia with a Serb father and Croat mother can qualify as Serb of Croatia. It doesn’t delete their other half. That same person if from Serbia would qualify as a Croat of Serbia. They are both Serb and Croat. Obviously on this page, we are listening people who are of Croat heritage. They don’t have to be purely one ethnicity to qualify else all these lists need massive changes. Now that would be interesting. One ethnicity doesn't overwrite the other. Both sides are relevant. Anyway, fact is we have no solid RS describing what the mother’s ethnicity is so no point. This is what I am trying to explain to Mikola. OyMosby (talk) 16:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe that's the case in USA and Canada, it's not in Europe and especially the Balkans. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 17:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Is it the case in Britain? OyMosby (talk) 17:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I reverted that user because of his edit summary. IMHO, the inclusion of living people for whom we cannot establish their ethnic identity in this or similar articles (List of Serbs of Croatia, for example) is very controversial, particularly in cases where their parents are of different ethnicities. What caught my eye there is that, for some reason, Boško Balaban is listed as a notable Serb from Croatia, and that information is cited to Kurir. Tezwoo (talk) 21:03, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no controversy, because the proto-ustasha Starcevic is not listed as a Serb based on his mother's ethnicity. The obvious logical mistake aside, that would be controversial anywhere, and the same goes for Djokovic. Just because some editor wants to push something does not mean that it has any sort of merit. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:10, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

The addition of any living person in such lists, whose ethnic self-identification is not clear, and especially if it is cited to yellow press, is controversial. Tezwoo (talk) 21:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Your Red herring aside, I do not see that stance applied on Djokovic here. Funny. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Starcevic and Djokovic are quite different subjects. So should Serbs of Croatia or list of Serbs only include 100% ethnic Serbs?OyMosby (talk) 22:10, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Only in the regard that we know 100% that the chauvinist's mother was a Serb (which is confimed by WP:RS) and we do not know about Djokovic's, we simply do not know and the sources are lacking. This we must respect.

Not really and that was not the main point. Modern-day identity politics and ideology aside, paternal heritage is primary when considering a person's heritage, unless the person in question has claimed otherwise. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 22:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I’m not arguing to include Djokovic as I stated there are weak sources discussing his mother’s ethnic background. Also didn’t Starcevic die before the Ustashe formed and took back a lot of his toxic remarks about Serbs? Not trying to take away what he planted the seeds for just wonder if I recall reading this somewhere correctly. OyMosby (talk) 22:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

There is a clear guideline for the inclusion of a person in an ethnic category/list on WP:EGRS:

"As to the inclusion of people in a category related to ethnicity, gender, religion, sexuality, or disability, please remember that inclusion must be based on reliable sources."

So if a person's ethnic self-identification is disputed or cited to unreliable sources, then that person should not be included in such ethnic lists. Therefore, no Đoković in a "list of Croats" and no Petrović or Balaban or Subašić in a "list of Serbs". Tezwoo (talk) 22:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)