Talk:Christianity in the 17th century

Lead section

What is there makes little sense currently. Talk about the Enlightenment is unclear in a 17th century context, unless this means specific figures such as Spinoza or Locke; if the "mechanistic picture" of early modern science is meant, that should be said instead. And the map relating to the English Civil War is very questionable: at best this conflict related to Church polity, not whether people should be Christians. Something connected to the Thirty Years War would be much more to the point, I think. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Church polity is an importan part of church history, esp. in the 17th century. If I recall, the Thirty Years' War was not about religion toward the end, where the English Civil War was about religion (and other things) start to finish. You, however, are welcome to add on the topic what you know. You are correct that there should be something on the Thirty Years' War but I do not really know where to start. ^{şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ} 19:38, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, actually, scholars disagree on the religious element in the English Civil War; after all the classic nineteenth-century view is that it was about the constitution. I haven't had a chance to check the actual content of the article, but certainly the lead section should be a summary. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I would like to see a lead section like this:

The history of Christianity in the 17th century saw major conflicts with a strong religious element, particularly in Central Europe with the Thirty Years' War, and in North-West Europe with the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. Another development was greater eirenicism, religious tolerance, and acceptance of free thought and the place of Jews in Christian society, all of these being heavily qualified initially. In the Protestant world there was persecution of Arminians and religious Independents, such as early Unitarians, Baptists and Quakers. The Catholic world saw the influence of the Papacy limited by Gallicanism in France and similar movements, and Jansenism. Religious and judicial moves concerned with demonology and heresy continued, with this century showing the greatest activity against witchcraft.

Missionary activity in Asia and the Americas grew strongly, put down roots, and developed its institutions, though it met with strong resistance in Japan in particular; and at the same time Christian colonisation of some areas outside Europe succeeded, driven by economic as well as religious reasons. Christian traders were heavily involved in the Atlantic slave trade, which had the effect of transporting Africans into Christian communities. A land war between Christianity and Islam continued, in the form of the campaigns of the Habsburg Empire and Ottoman Empire in the Balkans, a turning point coming at Vienna in 1683. The Tsardom of Russia, where Orthodox Christianity was the established religion, expanded eastwards into Siberia and Central Asia, regions of Islamic and shamanistic beliefs; and also south-west into the Ukraine, where the Uniate Eastern Catholic Churches arose.

The century saw a very large volume of published Christian literature, particularly controversial and millennial, but also historical and scholarly. Hagiography became more critical with the Bollandists, and ecclesiastical history became thoroughly developed and debated, with Catholic scholars such as Baronius and Jean Mabillon and Protestants such as David Blondel laying down the lines of scholarship. Christian art of the Baroque and music derived from church forms was striking, and influential on lay artists, using secular expression and themes. Poetry and drama often treated Biblical and religious matter, for example John Milton's Paradise Lost.

Charles Matthews (talk) 04:48, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

NPOV

Neither the treatment of the Puritans, nor that of Galileo, is posed in a neutral way, or in line with current scholarly views. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:12, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

The Enlightenment

This is not a good way to start the lead of this article. It is an ill-defined term (see Age of Enlightenment) and completely uncharacteristic of the 17th century Christians. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually I think this diff is very questionable. For example, it removes the mention of witchcraft, and slurs over various distinct points (eirenicism is important at the beginning of the century, the position of the Jews under for example Cromwell or in the Netherlands is historically significant, and neither of those is anything much to do with Enlightenment thinking, rather than strands of Protestantism). The lead must balance the fact that this was the century of the Salem witch trials as well as the Republic of Letters (a better way of expressing early Enlightenment views). Charles Matthews (talk) 12:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Punishing witchcraft has nothing to do with Christianity; this was a folk belief. I am sure the treatment of Jews is important to the history of Jews but that is not subject of the article; Cromwell himself, for example, would be more important than this and there little said him. Enlightenment is a more common term tha Republic of Letters, is a much longer article, and I am sure it has more links to it. Maybe you can add something on eirenicism back if something is said about what it means. ^{şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ} 14:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually that is an extraordinary statement about witchcraft: please look at Discoverie of Witchcraft and Saducismus Triumphatus to see the debate right through the century in which leading clerical figures defended the existence of witchcraft against sceptics. The article needs an accurate and comprehensive perspective on all these topics, though it should also make proper use of summary style. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:41, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

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