Talk:Building information modeling/Archive 1

the orgin of BIM has nothing to do with AUTODESK; BIM is Parametric Objects connected to parametric architecture with the industry that is serves and is served by

BIM is directly related to the evolution of parametric modeling. Which is something that has always been apart of Graphisoft's Archicad software. It actually represents the tipping point for every other software manufacture and their ability to become producers of BIM software. Autodesk should be totally removed from the discussion as they didn't produce anything, they just bought a company that was trying to compete with Archicad. Though they have popularized the term because of their user base, and had to develop their own form of GDL (geometric descriptive language). BIM is nothing with out parametric objects, otherwise know as smart objects. When an object has the ability to change it's properties both spatially and or within a database of information with the part, this is a parametric object. Also not noted within this discussion is the revolution of BIM with such prolific people as Kimon Onuma, and the Onuma Planning System (OPS), www.onuma.com . BIM is Parametric modeling for the building industry. Without parametric modeling, or GDL there isn't BIM. It's sad to think that AUTODESK of all companies has brainwashed the public to think that it is responsible for the BIM revolution. Autodesk is constantly buying up companies that pose a threat to it's existence, they aren't revolutionizing anything, they are actually in a way slowing progress in the right direction by not providing open source platforms. Google in a way is vying for a seed in this market. Though seemingly the poster child for a open source community, they have cut ties with Archicad with their Sketch-up software. Once an interesting platform to communicate between two different types of modeling software they are now trying to build their own CAD production software for agency submissions. Thus the interesting development of the Onuma Planning System, which is taking BIM to the next level and beyond anything that has ever been done, in the open source arena. Archicad has been around since 1981, and was on the first Apples produced, Autocad has also been around since 1981 and was on the PC, so it is easy to understand that the true nature of Autocad wasn't 3d as well as wasn't parametric. Those disguising factors set Archicad and Autodesk far apart from one and other, even today with Archicad 12.

In a way if you think about BIM it's truly a response to the Autocad. Autocad was an evolution in the technical aspect of creating construction documents. Though the digitized information contained no information about the objects they were trying to represent. Even if say for example a beam was vaguely represented in an Autocad file it had to be created line for line, and maybe even called out in a keynote to give the contractor the exact specification of what was to be used. Thus the difference between the two companies is clear, archicad has always included the specific information necessary to discern what type of object it truly represents. Thus BIM is now taking these objects and connecting them to the real world in a multitude of ways (structural calculations, environmental calculations, etc).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Willard997 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

One of the earliest BIM systems developed actually goes by to a group of software developers from Cambridge, England. Ed Hoskins and Paul Richens founded a company called Applied Research of Cambridge. They developed a 3D modeling package called BDS (Building Design System) that was one of the first BIM systems created. This took place in the early 1970's, long before Autodesk and other systems claimed to have have created such a tool........comment added by [Archietek52 - april 26, 2009]

Removed link and unreferenced info

I have changed the first paragraph, which talked about the definition (building information model vs. modeling) and the origin of the term BIM. I added several references. I've heard that there are more theories on the origin of the term.

Ghang —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghanglee (talk • contribs) 08:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind, but I have changed the link to Satellier, as it currently looks like advertising (see section on "Bias" at the policy article "Neutral Point of View"), and have linked it instead to the resources page at that firm. I have also removed the signature, as that is not standard for Wikipedia articles. Sorry Kris!

Satellier LLC a Chicago headquartered Architecture Offshore Partnering company offering high end BIM services for its clients.

I have removed the following section because it is not supported by any references. I am sure that there are some references out there, though.

Experts project that nearly three-fourths of all design development will be executed with BIM software within the next ten years. That shift could cost millions for each firm, as they create new capacities and adapt to an unfamiliar format.

I have extracted some of the following information and included it in a new introduction to the term.

The building design and construction industry is currently undergoing a generational shift to Building Information Modeling. BIM greatly enhances productivity by allowing easy retrieval of embedded information such as quantities, specifications and manufacturer’s details, and provides interactive links between architectural, engineering and construction-related information.

--Muchado 17:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I added some information giving the contracting point of view.

--User:Lhandler August 7, 2006

If Bentley, AutoDesk and Graphisoft are going to be included in Internal AND External links, then it is appropriate that VectorWorks and Nemetschek N.A be listed also. VW has had BIM functionality far longer than any of AutoDesks products and at least as long as Bentley and Graphisoft.

NNAACD 20:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)User:NNAACD October 12, 2006

I agree with NNAACD that if one is in then they all should be. I am not sure that we want to have them in both the section on "Software" and "External Links" though, as is currently the case with Nemetschek. There is also a general issue with "spam", and I think that on this basis we need to at least remove the reference to "Tecton Limited", as the linked site adds no more information. At least Satellier and RCMS link to their knowledge-bases. Gehry Technologies (which is based on Dassault's CATIA) should probably be moved to the "Software" section, since their site does not provide any general information as far as I can see. Any comments? If no counter-argument is made, then I shall do this tomorrow.

--Muchado 21:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Anticipated future potential

There needs to be a section, best placed probably under section 2, Anticipated Future Potential, of the problems and growing pains of this software - it's not all plain sailing. Although the idea is sound and the potential is there, the reality when using these somewhat immature programs on real projects is removed from the sales pitch. Just to list a few of the problems:

1. Hardware limitations especially on large complex buildings in the CD stage of a project
2. Staff training. These programs are not intuitive to use. They need to follow SketchUp's lead on that point. Highly technically minded and disciplined staff are needed to run projects.
3. 2D touching up of elevations and sections to get them to a completed state - the documentation standard of these programs has traditionally been poor compared to the 2D drafting tools. Thus the promise of a truly 100% linked and auto-updatable model is still not quite attained.

This is not required in the latest BIM project I've participated in done with Revit. --Garett Naff 22:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

4. Consultants not using, or even knowing, of such software. Thus time wasted tranfering everything back to your traditional 2D CAD format.
5. There is some limitation on the freedom of the designer using these programs. BIM works best with repetative and square buildings still.

It seems to me that nearly all the most complex buildings designed today utilize BIM, for example the recently finished Hamilton building in DenverAIA Best BIM Efforts. I believe some firms use aircraft modeling software due to the limitations of software packaged for architects, but this is still BIM. The more complex the building the more it can benefit from BIM in my opinion. --Garett Naff 22:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

6. Detailing is still done in 2D.
7. All your eggs are in one basket. The model is the central hub of all your drawings. If it gets corrupted, or if inexperienced staff slowly degrade its parametric linkages, or if the file gets unexpectedly large and drafting speed starts to get sluggish as a consequence, it effects all drawings.
8. Although not strictly a problem, when are the suppliers going to get on board? Although I wouldnt expect a model from every supplier for every product it would be nice if the major suppliers, that currently provide 2D CAD libraries of their products, provided 3D BIM models of their catalogues so I could just cut and paste instead of having to build my own library.

This is not the end of the list.

BIM programs are not a one stop documentation shop. They work better in certain stages of a project than others. For concept stage I would be using SketchUp. For DD and early CD you pick up your BIM. For details its onto your 2D CAD app. For your consultants it's your 2D CAD app also. BIM software companies are endeavouring to address these areas but we're a way off perfection yet.
--User:b1_ March 5, 2007

If BIM is not followed through on by all design team members, Architects and Engineers, contributing into one model, then most of the benefits of BIM are lost. Some of the best benefits are in being able to do conflict analysis of all the systems, letting the design team make sure that beams don’t interfere with ducts etc. One must balance the design teams skills, the allowance for design time, and computer resources against how detailed this process should be, but incorporation of all the disciplines in one model presents vast advantages.

As for the stages of a project, I agree that pre-design should be done in a quick schematic modeling program, like Sketchup. But if you go to another application to do your final detailing, you must not loose your capability to coordinate with the base model. It is imperative that you do the detailing in a software platform that you can overlay your 2d work on a cut of the 3-D model that is updated live from changes made to the model. Otherwise you sacrifice the coordination that is gained from BIM, and the value engineering changes proposed by the contractor may destroy all your hard work if you can’t easily check details against the model. Applications geared towards BIM (like Rivet, but I suspect there are others) incorporate two dimensional drafting tools that can be overlaid directly on cuts from the model allowing the user to balance exactly how comes from the model versus 2D. Revit even allows the 2D object to be tied in to locations based from the model information, so if you move a wall, a 2D lintel angle can move with it. In the future, when computers can handle more data, the models will be able to hold all the components that would be drawn in a detail, and 2D detailing will not be required. A good rule of thumb when working on BIM projects is to model only what you need to. If you can’t see it in any of the finished product, then it is only using up computer resources. In the end, your model will hold all the pertinent information. After all if it doesn’t show up in the finished drawings, it likely won’t be in the actual building either.

In the end, BIM is here, people are using it, and it is saving significant time and money in the field (AIA Best BIM Efforts). This savings insures that BIM will prosper.
--Garett Naff 17:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I really think this article has to many pros and not enough cons. As line item 2 above says , staff training is going to be the biggest problem. There are too many engineering firms that are willing to buy new software, but unwilling to train staff in its use.(be it the big head syndrome or a money issue) Additionally, the engineering world is rife with professionals that do not follow any design standards at all, combine that without a regulating body to inform them of their lack of standards only compounds that issue. Owners don't care about design standards, especially property developers who only plan on selling the building and letting it be someone else's problem. Also it needs to be mentioned that Contractors and Subcontractors do not have an incentive to buy and use this software. A contractor could spend big money on software and staff training to only use it for one project a year. From a purely business standpoint its throwing money down the drain. Time and time again, we will end up seeing the architect and engineer having to input all of this data themselves because a contractor or subcontractor informs the owner of their situation. I can only optimistically seeing the widespread use of BIM in large buildings only being commonplace by 2020. For small commercial and large residential it won't be until 2025 or 2030. This article is misleading about BIM making it sound so promising and just around the corner, in reality the computing power to run one efficiently doesn't even exist.....yet. As line item 7 above says, all the eggs are in one basket. This article desparatly needs to be rewritten describing it as an emerging technology that is years down the road from being implemented in its ideal form. Till then, it will only be employed on super large projects like stadiums and skyscrapers.69.198.39.26 (talk) 19:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Additional information

When I started looking for information on Wikipedia about Tekla structures, then the only WP page containing it was cached in Google. I later discovered that it contains copyvios, but I still suggest this as merely a source for any additional information that could be added to the article without violating any copyrights (watch out — include only facts from there!!) . -BStarky 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's a ZDNet article about BIM, describing it and places BIM in historical context and where it sees BIM in the future. This should help in describing its situation in the article. -BStarky 01:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Not sure where to put this, but BuildingSMART is not a competing definition to BIM as referred to "the term itself is under debate[9], and it is yet to be seen whether it will win over alternatives, which include...".

Secondly, not sure where to include items like BIM Wiki which is providing additional information about BIM that people might be interested in http://www.bimwiki.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.161.244.253 (talk) 02:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I recently added http://www.bimwiki.com to the External links but it was removed, likely because it was deemed to not meet WP:ELNO #12. I thought it would be OK considering it's been around for some time and is pretty active. In any case I believe it's a good resource for additional information so there must be some way to make it available to Wikipedia users? (this discussion may also apply to http://www.vdcwiki.com, though I am personally less familiar with that site) Daxitude (talk) 15:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

List of BIM software

The list if building information modeling software does not seem helpful in this article. If its function is to aid in navigation, the red links make it clumsy. (a BIM category exists for navigation) Although I am unexperienced with specific softwares, I can't imagine all of the software is notable enough to include in this list (especially since most of it doesn't even have its own article). This list should either be:

• severely pruned
• turned into a stand-alone list on a separate page
• removing while ensuring that all existing articles in the list are in the Category:Building Information Modeling.

If no one objects here, I will remove it in the near future. Muffinon (talk) 01:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed the BIM software section after going through it and making sure that each program was in the BIM category. Muffinon (talk) 15:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As stated on the Template talk:Building Information Modeling page, I think its very hard to define what _is_ and _is not_ a 'BIM' package anyway, since it is such a broad term. Not that it means much now, but I do agree that this section shouldn't be in the article. Miscreant (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well done. Could there be use for List of BIM software or even Comparison of BIM software type page though? Juhoeemeli (talk) 20:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I would like to see a list/ comparison of BIM software page. I'm a Wikipedia novice but more than happy to contribute if someone more experienced wants to get the ball rolling. Daxitude (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Reference Qualification

Is the reference “Building Information Modeling Two Years Later –Huge Potential, Some Success and Several Limitations” posted in this article even published? I personally like to see all references published or printed and less “White-paper” like essay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wanglijan (talk • contribs) 13:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Modeling Guidelines and National Aspects

Modeling guidelines are definitely developed around the world. For me it seems that they provide a good background for understanding BIM processes, especially information exchange part. Anyway, since most publicly available guidelines are developed by governments, government run organizations or major local players they tend to have bias towards national information standards. Some discussion is thus necessary to keep the section neutral. Multiple active contributors wouldn't harm. There are suggestions towards standardization in the following two sections, but as said guidelines lean toward national, so the hints to national practices maybe in their proper place there. Juhoeemeli (talk) 21:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

No comments on this one yet? I'm still of the opinion that the national aspects of BIM are at least partly an issue of differing national standarts. These could fit under the Modeling Guidelines chapter. On the other hand this article can not bear all the national variations:

• National variations of BIM should be moved to separate articles
• A brief look into reasons and consequences of national differences could be in place here

This would be much bigger change to the structure of this article than the removing of BIM software list though. Some comments would be nice before I'll go about it on my own! Juhoeemeli (talk) 20:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

buildingSMART international is currently developing an international BIM standard. WMdcu (talk) 15:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Iterative refinement of Key Terms and Categorization Titles

As this new technology diffuses into industry we need to iteratively arrive at a better set of Key Terms and Category Titles within the BIM space to avoid confusion. The following are necessary updates that need to precipitate in the what's being written:

1. The 'Building' part of the term BIM needs to be more clearly explained as applying to building anything, not just buildings. 2. BIM Management is the workflow carried out by Contractors whereas as BIM is the creation process and a workflow carried out by Designers and Architects. 3. VDC as in Virtual Design Construction never really took off and should be dropped all together now that Virtual Desktop Computing has emerged as an important aspect in the BIM space.

--Andrewmillsy (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggested changes to first paragraph

Hi - I'm a Wikipedia novice who just came across this page. I think it's a good overview but I'm not sure it's very clear to people who aren't familiar with BIM and CAD systems in general, and I'd like to suggest amending the long first para so it's broken up into smaller paras and perhaps rephrased so that it's more understandable to non-specialist audiences, ie. something like:

"Building information modelling (BIM) is a term used to describe the process of creating information-rich digital models of buildings.

These models can be used for design, construction and facilities management, and typically include not just the 3D geometry of objects that make up the building, but also data about those objects."

I'd welcome any comments from anyone who's been working on this page and hope this seems ok to everyone - if nobody responds in a week or so then I'll go ahead and make changes.

comment added by cjs98 21:16, 18 October 2011 (UTC)