Talk:Black Canary

Category question

NShould she be listed as a Fictional Blonde, her hair is dyed if I recall correctly. She's really a brunette.

-I'd say that definatly makes her a "fictional blonde";)Stevecudmore (talk) 00:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Unclear paragraph

This paragraph-"Following the retroactive continuity change in 1983, Black Canary became two distinct characters, mother and daughter, named Dinah Drake Lance and Dinah Laurel Lance. Dinah Lance would become the current Black Canary. Some references, notably those in James Robinson's Starman series, would attempt to distinguish the two Canaries further by referring to the first as 'Diana', but more recent accounts have confirmed 'Dinah' as the elder Canary's given name."-is somewhat unclear, especially the second sentence. I assume that it is meaning to say that Dinah Laurel Lance is the current Black Canary, but Dinah Lance describes both characters. I don't know anything about the character besides what is on Wikipedia, so I am unqualified to make any changes. 205.241.56.14 (talk) 01:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Deleted paragraph

I removed the following paragraph from the entry, which is speculative ("some fans"?):
Oracle and Black Canary behave so affectionately towards one another that some fans have begun to speculate as to the possible lesbian undertones of their relationship, much to the dismay of older, purist fans.--Galliaz 01:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

She should be a fictional blonde because she is always shown that way. In addition, she used to wear a blonde wig but has now dyes her hair blonde, so I think she sees herself as a blonde and so should be considered one.

The category Fictional Blondes has been deleted. CovenantD 03:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Galliaz, it was good to remove the paragraph. Anyone following the Birds of Prey storylines knows that Babs has had an on-again, off-again relationship with Dick Grayson, while Dinah has had a series of short relationships. The embracing that the two have had is one borne of genuine friendship (Babs essentially rebuilt Dinah's Black Canary career); it has never been hinted that a romance exists between the two.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Quidam65 (talk • contribs) 12:53 November 3, 2006

Top martial artist in the DC??

How is she rated as one of the top when she couldn't beat Strike? Nightwing defeated him, and defeated him rather easily. Another thing In BOP Black Canary admits that Nightwing is better than she is in the fight with "The Brothers Silk." And you people still can't give Nightwing his credit as being one of the best DC martial artist alive.

It's a conspiracy, I tell you. Does anyone think Nightwing isn't good? But Black Canary has been training for a year or two with Lady Shiva and with the people who trained her. --Chris Griswold 23:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Trying to make this category a little more consistent. (By the way, if your copy of the Brothers Silk story has her admitting that, you must have added a line in with a pencil. Nothing like that is ever said in the book).D1Puck1T 19:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I wrote the thing and it never says anything like that.

Gail

I think that line should be removed, too-- I may not have the gravitas that Gail Simone has, but I've been reading DC for 30 years and though Canary is a great fighter, definitely better than Green Arrow, she is not one of the world's greatest martial artists! She's maybe about the level of the original Question. Just off the top of my head, Batman, Nightwing, Batgirl II, David Cain, Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger are miles above. ~Patrick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.151.7.127 (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Infinite Crisis

Please do not add speculation about Dinah's role in the founding of the Justice League. We don't know yet, so there's no need to anything to the article. --Chris Griswold 21:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree; one of the main points of Infinite Crisis was to return Wonder Woman to her role as a JLA founder, and this was clearly depicted in the comic. I did not say Dinah was now definitively not a founder, but merely said things were now "unclear," which is true. What is wrong with factually pointing out the issue raised by the end of IC, properly couched and qualified? Would you care to offer some language regarding the possible implications of IC? Chris1435 21:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No. There is no news, and we don't need to include the fact that there is no news. This is the general policy of the Wikiproject. --Chris Griswold 01:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Wonder Woman has been restored to Silver-Age JLA history is not "news?" The article's statement regarding BC's "retroactively replacing Wonder Woman in all Silver Age appearances with the team" is now at best questionable and at most patlently false. How can she have "replaced" Wonder Woman if Wonder Woman was there? All I'm asking for is a simple statement acknowledging the IC business in some brief way; otherwise the article is misleading. Chris1435 18:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Take a look at the Infinite Crisis section. Don't worry about the present tense. I am going to go over this whole article within the next few days. I'm going to update it, copy edit it, and fil in the blanks (with some help from my fiancee).--Chris Griswold 02:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. Thanks for working together. Chris1435 03:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem. You were right; we just needed to come together. --Chris Griswold 06:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Since the "Progeny" story-arc in Birds of Prey is now finished, I think this section should be written entirely in the past tense.--Galliaz 21:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It has been generally accepted by the WikiProject that literary present tense is appropriate for fictional character articles. See Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man. For more informations, see: Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Check your fiction, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Tense, & Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Archive 11#Literary present tense. --Chris Griswold 22:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Okey, dokey.--Galliaz 23:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Canary Cry

I feel that a very small paragraph could be included about various uses of the Canary Cry over the years, although I lack the expertise necessary for writing it. I do recall Mr. Terrific having her knock out all the guards in the White House by altering the pitch of her cry, during a JLA-JSA crossover, and (if memory serves), in Batgirl her cry was sufficient to destroy a stone dam or something along those lines.D1Puck1T 07:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

You might want to mention the apparent loss of the canary cry after the events of Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters. It was never explicitly stated that the torture there was the cause, but for several years, Dinah didn't use this power. 95.172.68.149 (talk) 16:56, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Source?

"The effects of this experience, both physical and mental, were severe. Dinah suffered not only the loss of her Canary Cry, but also her ability to have children." I know she was tortured, but exactly where does it say that she was unable to have children because of it? User: Oncedead

It's indicated in issue #34 of the first GREEN ARROW series. --Carmen

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 15:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

2 Articles

Does anyone think that the two Black Canary's should have their own articles? I think they are both important enough to deserve their own page. ZODtheReaper (talk) 16:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Split

Since the editor suggesting the split hasn't bothered...

I have to say No, this article doesn't need to be split. It does need a good pruning to remove the bloat of plot. But other wise, if we are going to treat this as an element in works of fiction, then the "mother/daughter" need to be kept together to show how, when, and why DC decided to add the retcon in. This isn't a place to recreate fan focused materiel - that would be DC Database.

- J Greb (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

No Same erason as above --Leocomix (talk) 13:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose split, at least for now. This article needs a lot of work - it needs rewriting from an out-of-universe perspective and it needs a lot more sources. In the course of this it might make sense to have a section for each character (and change the redirects to link through to them). We can then return to this and look at the situation again, there are plenty of other legacy characters in the DCU and so that needn't be a strike against separate articles but it does look like a trim might reduce the need for a split, for now. (Emperor (talk) 02:00, 16 September 2011 (UTC))

• Like others I strongly oppose the idea of the split. It's quite simple, really. Each Black Canary does not have a distinct identity or reason for notability in the real world, and in many versions of the story the split is not adhered to at all. It invites original research if you split them, as well, because editors must "decide" which version of BC has been adapted in the first instance, and usually writers will take elements from across the character's history. What this article needs is a rewrite. One solid "Production history" section which accounts for the minimally-important Earth-2/1 versions and their unification, and then a very compressed account of their fictional histories. Wikipedia isn't meant for "fictional character biographies," it's meant for encyclopaedic articles about why fictional characters are or have been culturally relevant. I have taken the liberty of reverting the split because it was of serious detriment to the quality of both articles and the damage would have been increasingly hard to undo if left that way. Zythe (talk) 18:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
  • FWIW, it was Noob saibot red again. - J Greb (talk) 18:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Canary not raped citation

In the article it states that contrary to popular belief Canary wasn't raped during her torture. The citation for this is another wiki (which seems like an inappropriate source). That wiki has the same statement, but with the tag "citation needed." I think the whole statement should be dropped, but I figured I'd put it up here first to see if anyone can find an actual citation for it. In the meanwhile I'm going to remove that citation and put "citation needed" on the statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.7.56 (talk) 13:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

In other media

the Black Canary page seems a little cluttered and I made an in other page which stands on its own right out of the information given here. I think with some reworking and adding the Black Canary in other media page could really work out and lighten the Black Canary page a little bit.

-Shallowgravy (talk) 21:00, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Arrow (TV series)

Sara Lance, daughter of Detective Quentin Lance is shown in S02 as a a former assasin trained by Ra's al Ghul calling herself Canary (S02E05).91.39.121.31 (talk) 10:28, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Publication History

--I have added a "Publication History" section like the one in the Batman or Superman pages, and have made citations from the Carmine Infantino interview in Carmine Infantino: Penciler, Publisher, Provocateur (2010). I even included two paragraphs detailing the process of her creation, and the book can easily be viewed with the cited page numbers (30-32) in Google Books. However, I am still a little confused about the way we should write this section, and my entry might seem a bit different. Any help with it would be much appreciated. I would prefer that the section looks similar to the one on the Batman page, where the quotation is indented to the middle of the page rather than the way I wrote it. Thanks. I also suggest that once the current Black Canary New-52 run (as of July 25, 2015) is finished that we add a 'New-52' section as it is a radically different re-imagining of the character.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.97.152.200 (talk) 24 July 2015

I fixed the quote and combine the refs. It doesn't flow well into the next section. Others better at prose might fix it. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! I really appreciate it. I also like the section on the New-52, hopefully once the (inspired) current run by Brenden Fletcher, Annie Wu and Lee Loughridge wraps up we can get the rest up. Formatting is a bit difficult for me as I'm familiar with APA and MLA but am still a damned Padawan when it comes to Wikis.

Not to worry or hold back, there are plenty around to fix stuff up. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 02:27, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Black Canary/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

== Downgrade to "C" == I've downgraded the article to "C" class due to not enough citations.--Rockfang (talk) 22:19, 7 November 2008 (UTC) == Black Canary orgins ==

Substituted at 09:45, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Merge from Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)?

Following up on Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2023_August_24#Black_Canary_(Dinah_Laurel_Lance). Should we merge this? Note that similar Black Canary (Dinah Drake) was AfDed to a merge recently. Pinging participants of the discussion of Dinah article: @Jc37, Rhishisikk, Rtkat3, Irimia florin, Rorshacma, Shooterwalker, Stifle, SportingFlyer, Robert McClenon, Extraordinary Writ, Xymmax, Jclemens, Pppery, SmokeyJoe, ClydeFranklin, VickKiang, Hobit, JoelleJay, and El cid, el campeador: _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:53, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

It should have been merged at AfD, but since we're here now, just go ahead and open a merge discussion. SportingFlyer T·C 11:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer Well, this is what this is, no? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:50, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm for merging then but only on the basis the original AfD found a consensus to merge - I know absolutely nothing at all about the topic. SportingFlyer T·C 17:50, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Black Canary (Dinah Drake) is not merged. An AfD consensus to merge an awkward merge is a fiction. AfD is not competent to do merging. It must be either a "Keep" with a recommendation to merge, or a "Redirect" with recommendation for editors to merge from the history. As one attempts to do the merge, at any point editors may develop new opinions that render the old AfD moot.

This article, Black Canary summarises, sequentially, awkwardly, the two different fictional characters.

Black Canary (Dinah Drake) first appearance in 1947.

Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance) first appearance 1983, daughter of the above.

Between the two AfDs, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Canary (Dinah Drake) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance), I see no case for deletion, and so they should not have gone to AfD. Even then, they should have been listed together. If anything is to be done, the discussion should be held here, at Talk:Black Canary.

There are currently three articles. I see a consensus that there should be one or two articles, not three articles. I see no consensus on whether there should be one or two. There is a consensus against the status quo.

I think a decision is needed, on two choices, should there be:

A. one article, merge both Black Canary (Dinah Drake) & Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance) into Black Canary; or

B, two articles, turn Black Canary into DAB page, with articles Black Canary (Dinah Drake) & Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance)

SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:23, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• To reiterate what I said in both AFDs, both the Black Canary (Dinah Drake) and Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance) versions of the character should be merged and covered in the singular Black Canary article. This is a WP:NOPAGE situation where it just makes more sense to cover what is essentially the Golden Age and Modern Age versions of the character in a single article rather than splitting the information out across three articles. Particularly as it would provide the context needed for someone unfamiliar with the character, or even comics in general, to be able to understand the character history easily without the need for confusing navigation. Rorshacma (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
• Here is my contribution to this discussion page. The pages were split out by @Jhenderson777: to keep the Black Canary page from getting long just like the splitting of other characters who went by same code names. He even mentioned something like this on the edit summaries that detailed their creation. We should here his opinions of this discussion as well. --Rtkat3 (talk) 17:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

  The current article has 1392 words. Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance) has 2271 words. Black Canary (Dinah Drake) has 1167 words. Even if we merge 100% without leaving anything out, lenght should not be an issue. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:55, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with Rorshacma. I would further suggest that we solicit ELs to stable Wikis that might cover some of the more nuanced, in-universe info that's not a good fit for Wikipedia. Jclemens (talk) 17:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
• Option B two articles and a disamb. I haven't been involved in any of this discussion except that I was pinged because I had taken part in a DRV, and I said to Endorse a closure of No Consensus, but the DRV itself resulted in No Consensus. So here we are. On reading the articles, I see that there are two different related fictional characters sharing a superheroine role. There should be one article for the mother and one article for the daughter. They are two different fictional characters. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• Except its a bit more complicated then that - the "two separate characters" and "mother and daughter" relationship between them is the result of years of continuity changes and reboots in the DCU, which is why, to someone who is completely unfamiliar with the character or to the history of the DCU's constant continuity changes, the current format of multiple articles is confusing and difficult to navigate to actually understand both the fictional and real world history of the character of "Black Canary". In a very brief summary, the original Black Canary (the Dinah Drake article version) was created in the Golden Age, later retconned into existing on "Earth 2", moving to "Earth 1" to join the (then) current iteration of the Justice League in the 1960's, and then, after the Crisis on Infinite Earths in the 1980's, retconned again into being actually two separate characters - Dinah Drake, who lived in the past, and Dinah Lance, who lived in the current day. This history, both in-universe and out-of-universe, is considerably harder to understand and piece together when its separated out in to multiple articles. Just as an example - the Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance) article just starts off the biography as just what the continuity was after the Crisis, without any explanation of what led up to that, since that is instead found on the Black Canary (Dinah Drake) article. Rorshacma (talk) 19:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• No Opinion - It has been explained as complicated, and I don't intend to do the research. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:27, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
• Merge both into Black Canary. Wikipedia is capable of summarizing a character that has different manifestations. If the article gets too long then that probably means it is too detailed and likely overly-reliant on low-quality (pop culture) sources. JoelleJay (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
• No opinion per Robert McClenon. Stifle (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Merge Seems like an obvious case of a merge. This would improve context for concepts that aren't really separate. There isn't much coverage for these things separately, and a certain amount of unsourced information will need to be cleaned up. The opinions about a merge were near unanimous at AFD, but here we are. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

No Merge at present. Wikipedia needs to work out how to deal with this kind of material and summary style used to be a viable option until it seems to have been edited away from what it used to mean. It's always interesting how the two sides of Wikipedia match and decide what to retain, but we never actually address the structural issue, only dance around the I LIKE IT and I DON'T LIKE IT sides of the argument. Do we want to inform people, and how much do we want to inform them? If we can source material and inform readers is that enough? We need to solve that discussion in one big centralised area rather than have mini-consensus carved here and there that achieve nothing but driving good contributors away. Hiding T 15:27, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

(@Hiding: Nailed it, I am too scared to return to Wikipedia. The Spider-Man Insomniac merge was the final straw. I don’t care what else is merged that I created or helping this “community” with edits anymore. I seen enough AFD bombs that only come from deletionists that come from poorly done guidelines. Did thy ever even incubate the Insomniac Spider-Man character page like I requested? Probably not! Maybe not worth knowing. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 00:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option B There is two other characters who would fit on the DAB. Laurel Lance (Arrowverse) and Sara Lance. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 19:31, 8 February 2024 (UTC)