Talk:Bernard Stone

NPOV

I rewrote the sentences describing the votes on the Big Box ordinance and the council pay raise. The previous version violated NPOV. WBcoleman 04:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Citations

From WP:CITE: What to do when a reference link "goes dead" ... Deactivate the dead link, and keep the citation information if still appropriate to the article. (This may happen, for example, when an online copy of material that originally appeared in print is no longer online.) Hugh (talk) 03:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Apology

I apologize to the anonymous editor of 28 November 2008 and to the Wikipedia community, I recognize I bit a newbie WP:DBN. I choose to learn from it. I restored 2 out of the 3 edits I undid. I'm sorry. Hugh (talk) 20:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

POV

Hugo D seems to have have a bias. The reference to bacon is unverifiable--the Sun Times article does not exist--and offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.251.33.44 (talk) 14:39, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I removed the information because it is not verifiable at this point and potentially contentious. It is also just trivial information that really is not important. ~~ GB fan ~~ 15:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bernard Stone/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zwerg Nase (talk · contribs) 19:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

On it. Zwerg Nase (talk) 19:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

An interesting article on local politician Bernard Stone. Being in local politics myself, I hope I did not learn to many bad tricks from studying this article ;) Well, anyway, let's get to it:

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

The issues at hand are:

• There are several dead links that you should try and sort out. They can be seen here.

 Done Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:57, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• Also, please take care of WP:REPEATLINK. There are some of those in there as well.

 Done Several overlinks removed, others modified. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:45, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• Education: Someone already tagged it, the section lacks sources.

 Done Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:03, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• The Republican years: Third paragraph, you write against Democratic Illinois State Representative Carol Moseley Braun, who is black. I think against African-American Democratic Illinois State Representative Carol Moseley Braun might be more politically correct? I don't know if there is a convention on Wikipedia on this sort of word choice, but black seems weird to me.

 Done Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:10, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Berny's Wall": It seems that this section relies only on articles from the Chicago Tribune, which makes it a little one-sided. Maybe you can find at least 1-2 sources from another local papar, like the Sun-Times? Generally, this article relies very heavily on just these two sources, but I will not hold that against you, I believe it is hard enough to find sources as it is.

• Fixed two dead url refs to sources other than the Chicago Tribune in the section. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
• Added three Chicago Sun-Times references to the section. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
• Section trimmed for length. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:37, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• Personal life: The markup was already put there by someone else, please find a source here.

 Done Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:36, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

The nominator has the usual seven days to take care of the issues at hand. Good work so far! Cheers, Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

That was quick! Thank you for the swift changes, this is now a Good Article. Congratulations! Zwerg Nase (talk) 20:58, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Come to think of it: You nominated this in "World History". I feel it would be better suited in "Politics and Government". Would you mind me placing it there? Zwerg Nase (talk) 21:00, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! Not at all. Hugh (talk) 21:13, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, I changed it! Zwerg Nase (talk) 21:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your review and your comments. Hugh (talk) 15:10, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Bernard Stone/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I am concerned about close paraphrasing and copyright violations in this article. A number of examples are listed at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Bernard_Stone. Examples as close as this one:

• "Stone told reporters he did not expect their newspapers to endorse him...Disappointed that few people were focusing on the racial factor in the recorder's election, Stone went for the backlash vote by featuring Braun's photograph in his own campaign literature"

vs

• "Stone told reporters he didn't expect their newspapers to endorse him... Disappointed that few people were focusing on the racial factor in the recorder's election, Stone went for the backlash vote by taking the politically unusual step of featuring Braun's photograph in his own campaign literature."

constitute a copyright violation. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:23, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the review of the DYK nom. Thank you for your considerable time and attention to the sourcing. Thank you for pointing out the close paraphrasing. I will make a pass and correct the paraphrasing. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done remove close paraphrase: Stone included Braun's photograph in his campaign flyers. Stone told reporters that although he not expect their newspapers' endorsements, "Just run a picture of Braun. That's all I ask." Hugh (talk) 17:06, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Please see additional progress on close paraphrasing at DYK review Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Bernard_Stone. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

With the large number of close to copyright sentences WP:CLOP in the article I do not believe it should even be B class. I would also note that the author who is responsible for many of the copyright and close paraphrasing issues is the one who nominated for GA status. Here is such an example: (search for the phrase, "Eapen was found guilty on nine different counts") Insertion:[[1]] Concern in GA discussion:[[2]] While it is understandable that one takes pride in their contributions, I think it would be best if the article was held back from GA status until another editor gets a chance to really review the sources vs the content of the article. Springee (talk) 17:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

The page creator has made significant efforts to rewrite the close paraphrasing. I have checked the first dozen of the online sources on Earwig Copyvio Detector and can confirm that there is no more close paraphrasing from online sources. However, Nikkimaria has given one example that appears in an offline newspaper source. I don't have access to those offline sources. Yoninah (talk) 15:28, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. Below is the relevant excerpt from source for the close paraphrasing detected by Nikkimaria. I believe I have addressed the paraphrasing in this and other less immediately available sources. If you have other questions please let me know. The Chicago Sun-Times is archived by NewsBank and HighBeam. (BTW I'm not the page creator). Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 15:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Stone's tactics are unlikely to dim Braun's rising star

Chicago Sun-Times (IL) (Published as Chicago Sun-Times) - November 7, 1988 Author/Byline: Steve Neal Page: 21

State Rep. Carol Moseley Braun, the Democratic nominee for recorder of deeds, is likely to make political history in Tuesday's election by becoming the first black to win countywide executive office in Cook County....

Like Epton, Braun's Republican opponent, Ald. Bernard L. Stone (50th), is a serious and purposeful legislator who abandoned his better judgment to play racial politics. Earlier in the campaign, Stone told reporters he didn't expect their newspapers to endorse him. "Just run a picture of Braun," Stone said. "That's all I ask."

Disappointed that few people were focusing on the racial factor in the recorder's election, Stone went for the backlash vote by taking the politically unusual step of featuring Braun's photograph in his own campaign literature. The Stone literature also highlights Braun's opposition to the death penalty, an issue that has nothing to do with the recorder's office, and links her to former Mayor Washington.

Since most Cook County voters are white and Braun is black, Stone and his advisers thought that distributing Braun's photograph was a clever trick. A prominent GOP committeeman said he urged Stone to use Braun's picture. But when asked about his campaign flyer, Stone insisted to television reporters that he wasn't being cute by printing Braun's picture next to his own....

@HughD: I have access to HighBeam. Perhaps you could add the URLs for the HighBeam and NewsBank sources so I could check them? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 17:10, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I added a NewsBank openurl to the above ref. Can you please see if that works for you? thanks. Hugh (talk) 18:20, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it works for me. But now I see that the article isn't written according to the source. The article says way too little, and in the wrong order. It says:

In 1988, Stone ran as a Republican against African-American Democratic Illinois State Representative Carol Moseley Braun for Cook County Recorder of Deeds. Stone included Braun's photograph in his campaign flyers. Stone told reporters that although he did not expect their newspapers' endorsements, "Just run a picture of Braun. That's all I ask".

From the article, it's not clear what's going on. From the source, we understand the racist element in Stone's campaign approach. The last 2 points, about running the picture and talking to the press, are in reverse chronological order, per the source. I don't think the article captures the picture of the hard-hitting politician that Stone was. You have plenty of sources to back that up. It should also be mentioned in the lead. Yoninah (talk) 18:44, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, @HughD:, the more I look at sources, the more close paraphrasing I find. I just looked up a few of the articles on HighBeam and added URLs. Phrases and sentences were literally lifted from these sources. I edited out the close paraphrasing in 3 sources, but there's much more to do. Yoninah (talk) 19:16, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

You don't need to apologize for anything, thanks. Hugh (talk) 14:27, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Yoninah, if that's your conclusion, then the removal of the close paraphrasing template from the article page would seem to have been premature. Perhaps it should be restored and left in place until Nikkimaria—who opened this individual GAR and is the only one who can close it—signals her satisfaction that the article is free of problems in that area by removing it? BlueMoonset (talk) 21:36, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, I restored the tag. Yoninah (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

It's certainly much better than it was, but there continue to be some problems here: compare for example "arrested and charged with improperly steering primarily Indian and Pakistani voters toward casting absentee ballots for Stone" with "arrested Monday and charged -- along with another man -- with improperly steering primarily Indian and Pakistani voters toward absentee ballots for Stone". Of course the use of offline sources will hamper comprehensive checks. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@HughD: please add URLs to all the sources from News Bank and HighBeam so we can check them. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 09:24, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I will put in more time early next week. Thank you for your patience. Hugh (talk) 14:27, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you all again for your collaboration on addressing the close paraphrasing. I have added NewsBank and Chicago Tribune archive urls for almost all of the references and corrected some close paraphrasing. I believe any close paraphrase that might remaining is minor. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 19:09, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, better, but the example above from 14 August is still there, and I can't agree that it's minor. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:49, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Sorry, I missed that one from talk. New paraphrase: "On January 28, 2008, two employees of Stone's 2007 re-election campaign were arrested and charged with improperly influencing voters, primarily from the ward's Indian and Pakistani communities, to vote absentee for Stone." What do you think? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 02:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Given the improvements made I'm now comfortable keeping this as GA. However, HughD, given that you stated your earlier inexperience led to the problems here, I would strongly suggest you revisit your previous work to ensure it is copyright-compliant. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you all very much for your patience and collaboration and advice. Hugh (talk) 19:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150715005642/http://www.chicagotalks.org/2010/08/jail-time-for-former-aides-to-ald-berny-stone/ to http://www.chicagotalks.org/2010/08/jail-time-for-former-aides-to-ald-berny-stone/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150709160217/http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/17830244/two-bernie-stone-operatives-sentenced-to-jail-for-vote-getting-efforts to http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/17830244/two-bernie-stone-operatives-sentenced-to-jail-for-vote-getting-efforts
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://chicityclerk.com/documents/journal-of-proceedings/2015/2015_04_15_VI_VII.pdf
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150709154216/http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/229853/chicagos-old-guard-remembers-stone-skokie to http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/229853/chicagos-old-guard-remembers-stone-skokie
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141222163650/http://chicago.suntimes.com/news-chicago/7/71/224891/bernard-stone-former-chicago-alderman-dies-age-87 to http://chicago.suntimes.com/news-chicago/7/71/224891/bernard-stone-former-chicago-alderman-dies-age-87

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