Talk:Bab al-Asbat Minaret

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Huldra: In relation to your edit [1] (26-March-2019):

1. The source given as 43 Matériaux pour un Corpus Inscriptionum Arabicarum Part 2 Syrie du Sud T.1 Jérusalem "Ville" (Max van Berchem, 1922) - pp. 403-411 seems to be erroneous. The mention is rather on pg. 316: "En bordure nord de l’esplanade du haram, entre la porte apple Bab nitta (no. 168) a l’ouest et la minaret appele Ma’dhanat isra’il (no. 178) a l’est" - and does not refer to "Al-Asbat".

2. The source given as: MIFAO 45.2 Matériaux pour un Corpus Inscriptionum Arabicarum Part 2 Syrie du Sud T.3 Fasc. 2 Jérusalem Index general (Max van Berchem, 1920) - LXXI does not mention Al-Asbat at all in relation to the minaret, but rather "Ma’dhanat isra’il" - thrice:

• LXI no. 178. Ma’dhanat isra’il.
• LXXI: no. 178 Le Haram, cote nord, et le minaret Ma’dhanat isra’il
• LXXII: no. 178 Le Haram, pied du minaret Ma’dhanat isra’il

3. Only in the source given as: MIFAO 44 Matériaux pour un Corpus Inscriptionum Arabicarum Part 2 Syrie du Sud T.2 Jérusalem Haram (Max van Berchem, 1927) - pp. 133-136 does it mention "Minaret du Bab Al-Asbat (Ma’dhanat isra’il)". "Al-Asbat" is referenced to Guy Le Strange, but his works are in fact a translations of the medieval Arab geographers. His Description of the Noble Sanctuary at Jerusalem in 1470 A.D., by Kamâl (or Shams) ad Dîn as Suyûtî (pg. 286) states "and one that rises above the Bab as Asbat", while pg. 303 provides the Arabic. Palestine under the Moslems; a description of Syria and the Holy Land from A.D. 650 to 1500 (pg. 149) again only states "and one that rises above the Bab as Asbat". And where the minarets are referred to again on pg. 170, it again only mentions the Al-Asbat Gate, not the actual name of the minaret. James Reynolds in History Of The Temple Of Jerusalem (1836) also does not name the minaret, but states: "and one over the Gate of the Long-haired (a tribe of Arabia, Al-Asbat)" (pg. 192).

I therefore do not see how these provided references can be used to support the name change of this page from "Minaret of Israel" to "Bab Al-Asbat Minaret" on the grounds that it "is the name it is known under in all the academic literature." In the three sources you provided from the same author, "Ma’dhanat isra’il" is mentioned five times against the single "Minaret du Bab Al-Asbat". In the other reference you provided, Mamluk Jerusalem: An Architectural Study, I can only find "al-Asbat" mentioned once, again in relation to the adjacent gate. Besides from the existing reference to "Minaret of Israel" by Menashe Har-El, I have found the following:

• Zeitschrift des Deutschen Palästina-Vereins, Volumes 53-54 (1930) which explicitly states the Jewish connection to the names of these sites: "Die Zāwijat al - Lāwi fügt sich übrigens in die Reihe jüdisch benannter Denkmäler an der Nordseite des Haram, wie Ma’danat Bani Isra’il, Birket Bani Isra’il und Bab al-Isbat sehr gut an." (trans: "The Zāwijat al-Lāwi (?) by the way fits in well with the series of Jewish-named monuments on the north side of the Haram, such as Ma’danat Bani Isra’il, Birket Bani Isra’il and Bab al-Isbat.")
• Historical geography of Jerusalem throughout the ages (1996) pg. 216, which has a diagram labelling it "Israil Minaret"
• The Dome of the Rock (2006) pg. 9, another map labelling it "Israil Minaret"
• Journeyman in Jerusalem: Memories and Letters, 1933-1947, by Raphael Patai: “At the opposite end of the area, in the north, there was the Minarat Israll (Minaret of Israel), and next to it, at the at the northeastern corner of the Haram, was the Bab al-Asbat (Gate of the Tribes), thus named after the tribes of Israel. "As you can see," the shaykh concluded, “the ancient history of the Bani Isra’il [children of Israel] is well attested in our Muslim Haram.”

Regards, Chesdovi (talk) 03:01, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Chesdovi: thank you for your interesting post, I will try to address them one after the other.

1: the Archnet Digital Library calls it Bab al Asbat Minaret (clearly the same: look at pictures)

2: according to the Burgoyne directory, it mention Bab Al-Asbat Minaret at pages 77, 217, 415 infra, 526, 531.

p. 77: "AL-ASHRAF SHA'BAN (754-78/1363-76)

In the reign of al-Ashraf Sha'ban the Bab al-Asbat Minaret at the north wall of the Haram was erected in 769/1367-68 and the north-west colonnade restored in 778/1376.(18)

After Sha'ban until the rise of the first Circassian sultan, Barquq, there is no report of work done in the Haram. Once Barquq was established in power the business of maintenance and embellishment continued, but on a reduced scale."

p. 217: (Under no 15 Al-Karimiyya): Quoting Mujir al-Din al-Umari: ::::"in his day the land to the east of the Karlmiyya Madrasa, between it and the spot later occupied by the Bab al-Asbat Minaret (1367-68), was open."

p. 415-417, no. 38: is all about "Bab al-Asbat Minaret", ie, this place.

p. 526: (Under 54 Al-Ghadiriyya):

"[Al-Ghadiriyya is located] at the north border of the Haram between the Karlmiyya (no 15) and the Bab al-Asbat Minaret (no. 38)."

p. 532: picture

In all, when both archnet and Burgoyne agree about the name: I followed that. Clearly, this was build by the Mamluk ruler al-Ashraf Sha'ban: though other "tales" might have been spun.

As for old names: in the early 20th century, and in 19th century (and earlier!), and people loved making association with Biblical times. The minaret of the Mamluk Muazzamiyya was eg said to be "Tower of Antonia", see Commons cat.

I added the Max van Berchem sourced from the Biblio at Burgoyne.

Do you have the Burgoyne book? It is very interesting, Regards, Huldra (talk) 21:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Location?

Where? "along the north wall" is very vague (1/4 km long). Arminden (talk) 07:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)