Talk:Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Statistics from records

If you look back at the revision in the original article that entered the table in the first place, you will notice based on the editors other edits that it was seemingly an attempt to prove that the number was actually lower than other estimates. Looking at the source quoted, it is very clear that the numbers do not indicate the actual number. Yes there are 327 in th records, but that same source clearly indicates that the number is lower than the actual count. KosherJava (talk) 02:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "Piotrowski" :
  • {{en icon}} {{cite book | author =[[Tadeusz Piotrowski]] | coauthors = | title =Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide... | year =1997 | editor = | pages =p. 49-65| chapter = | chapterurl = | publisher =McFarland & Company | location = | id =ISBN 0-7864-0371-3 | format = | accessdate = }}
  • {{cite book | author =Tadeusz Piotrowski | title =Poland's holocaust : ethnic strife, collaboration with occupying forces and genocide in the Second Republic, 1918-1947 | year =1998 | pages = 130 | chapter = | url=http://books.google.com/books?id=A4FlatJCro4C&pg=PA130&ots=0IlRM2OGVU&dq=1,500-2,000+jews+between+1944+and+1947&sig=84o9Z9cKWyrW65b6fIZmcBdgIWg#PPA130,M1 | publisher =McFarland and Company | oclc=37195289 | isbn=0786403713 }}

DumZiBoT (talk) 13:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Dr Lidiya Milyakova

Dr Lidiya Milyakova quotes unknknown sources, it's not her research. Does there exist an academic version of the quoted text? Xx236 (talk) 11:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Lack of context

Anti-Jewish riots took place in several countries. This Wikipedia informs only about Poland. Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This is an article about anti-Jewish violence in Poland between 1944 and 1946. Discussing anti-Jewish violence in other countries wouldn't be germane to the topic of the article, nor would anti-Jewish violence in Poland during other years or violence against non-Jews. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Any article can contain informations about the historical context, eg. See also Anti-Jewish violence in Eastern Europe, 1944–1946, but such article doesn't exist. Sometimes an ethnic group or nationality is selected as the object of special treatment in this Wikipedia. Xx236 (talk) 09:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Unless a WP:RS makes the connection clear, what you added is WP:OR. I've removed it. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Anti-Jewish violence in Eastern Europe isn't my OR but an academic subject. Your selection of the violence in Poalnd from the context is POV. Any article should be put in its context.Xx236 (talk) 10:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Xx236 (talk) 10:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

POV added

I added the POV because whole article again shows Polish society as a bloody hunger antisemites who didn't have anything to do during and shortly after the war except killing the innocent Jews. Article doesn't mention anything about Jews who died because of bandits or other criminals in Poland during and after war's anarchy in the country. Not all Jews were "saint", some of them killed Polish people during the war or collaborated with the occupiers so they got killed for being a traitors. Nothing like that is mentioned in the article. --Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Please don't use this talk page as a soapbox for anti-Jewish invective. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Please, don't put your own words and thoughts into my mouths. I just explained why I placed POV and that's it. As long as article will show what's pointed out above me it willbe tagget as a POV as it is now. --Krzyzowiec (talk) 05:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The article doesn't say that all Jews were saints. If you have specific suggestions about improving the article, please share them. Otherwise, this Talk page isn't a forum. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

tangentially-related topic

Killing Jews in Poland was an antisemitic crime. Killing Jews 100 km from Poland was tangential and doesn't deserve to be mentioned here. Let's bash the Poles!Xx236 (talk) 09:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Please note WP:TALK. What are you suggesting relative to improving the article? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Polish Jewish Holocaust survivors

Some of the victims lived in Soviet Union and returned after the war. Xx236 (talk) 14:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Relevance? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If someone survived Siberia and never met a Nazi, is he/she a Holocaust survivor? The quoted sources doesn't inform rather about Holocaust survivors, than about Jewish victims. Xx236 (talk) 10:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

A Polish Jew--who would surely have been murdered had they been caught by the Nazis--who survived the Holocaust, whether by hiding in a cellar or by being deported to Siberia, is a Holocaust survivor. Did the Poles who murdered 1500 or more of these Jews on their return to their homes make a distinction between those who had been in Siberia or not, or those who "met a Nazi" or not, when they were murdering these Jews? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It's your OR and POV. The quoted texts say Jews not Holocaust survivors.

A Holocaust survivor is a person who survived the Holocaust. A person who survived GULAG is aGULAG survivor. A Holocaust survivor is a Holocaust survivor, both the one living in Poland and the one who emigrated, the one who was killed and the one who killed.

If the Poles who murdered 1500 or more of these Jews on their return to their homes didn't make a distinction between those who had been in Siberia or not, or those who "met a Nazi" or not, when they were murdering these Jews so why to discuss the problem of survivors in this place? Xx236 (talk) 14:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Xx236 (talk) 14:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Many sources refer to the victims of this period as "Holocaust survivors"; however, I made an adjustment that should address your concern. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 21:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your cooperation. Unfortunately returning to their homes isn't precise. Jews from Eastern Poland weren't returning. Some Jews were murdered when leaving Poland, they weren't returning, either.Xx236 (talk) 09:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism a Polish pre-war tradition ?

I strongly disagree with wording "Polish pre-war tradition of Anti-Semitism" There are plenty of Polish traditions but in my personal opinion anti-Semitism is not one of them. I would love to hear comments from other editors. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 07:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to get into an edit war over it, but (1) the text was "traditional pre-war anti-Semitism", not "tradition of anti-Semitism", and (2) Midlarsky asks why there were so many killings of Jews and says "Traditional Polish anti-Semitism is the most often-cited answer". If the word "traditional" is so bothersome, leave it out. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 07:18, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Traditional" meaning "popular"? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding the meaning of it)...--Jacurek (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I guess by this it is meant, perhaps distinct to Poland pattern of the anti-Jewish violence that happened pre-WWII (wave of pogroms in Grodno, Brest-Litovsk, Minsk-Mazowiecki, Myslenice, Przytyk etc) during WWII (Warsaw, Jedwabne, Wasosz, Radzilow etc pogroms), and unprecedented by scale post-Holocaust anti-Jewish pogroms. M0RD00R (talk) 21:26, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I guess that we could as well use the phrase "worldwide tradition of Anti-Semitism", as pogroms and violence occurred virtually in all areas with Jewish population, no matter if in Poland or USA. Do you agree, Mordoor? Tymek (talk) 02:04, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Again

1. Article space should not be used for POV declarations. This is not what "Unbalanced" template is for. If you want this template on this article stick it in, but the arguments should be presented on talk page, and not on article space. And answer to "why were my references removed again?", has been voiced before by couple editors, including uninvolved and neutral in this content dispute [1]. WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT and WP:OWN is not an excuse to deface this article.

2. Why "Blood libel" and "Kielce pogrom" sections were merged back into background section. Background is what happened prior to the main subject of this article - pogroms that is, which should have the section of their own. Blood libel pogroms, Kielce pogrom should have their own section. Kielce pogrom is the seminal event in the history of Polish Jews. It was the turning point of postwar Jewish history in Poland, it should have separate section.

3. [2]. You've been asked not use lead section for introduction of the new claims, not present in the article itself. Lead should summarize the article. It is especially inappropriate when primary source is used in the lead to establish new claims not present in the article. This quote is not enough for the claim that the lack of food was major trigger for the anti-Jewish violence in Poland to be insterted in the lead section. A it is a primary source, it is an opinion of minor local official so WP:UNDUE for the lead also it is a primary source (opinion of the author, regarding this statement is not clear, from this quote). If you want to insert shortage of food in the lead section you'll have to present multiple WP:RS to establish that this opinion is mainstream and widely regarded as credible in academic community.

4. Statement that "A pogrom orchestrated by the chief of UB secret police and the Soviet intelligence" is not universally agreed by academic community .[3]. It is regarded rather as conspiracy theory. Even IPN dismissed the theory of Soviet inspiration because of "lack of direct evidence and lack of obvious Soviet interest in provoking the events". M0RD00R (talk) 22:06, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Wider context-number of overall victims of post-war repressions and fighting

What is the number of Jewish victims compared to other deaths from the violent post-war period. I mean compared to Soviet inflicted death on Polish resistance, Soviet deaths from Polish resistance, deaths from terror attacks of German Werwolf, Ukrainian partisans and so on ? The whole period consists of wider infighting within Poland and it would be useful to point out that it had not happened in peacefull times but in time of great strife and conflicts.--Molobo (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The article already says:

Polish historian Tadeusz Piotrowski cites 1500-2000 victims between the years 1944 and 1947 due to general civil strife that came about with Soviet consolidation of power,[38] constituting 2 to 3 percent of the total number of victims of postwar violence in the country.

Keep in mind that any discussion about the relative number of Jews and non-Jews killed during the post-war period must come from a source or it will be considered OR. The preceding sentence would be an example of OR if Piotrowski didn't tie together the 1500-2000 victims and the 2-3% (which he does). — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It should also be mentioned in the lead. Piotrowski specifically says "hundreds of thousands" (added correction: he says "tens of thousands") of non-Jewish Poles were murdered during this time as well and I'm certain there are more precise figures out there.radek (talk) 22:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW, I know that Malik sometimes considers multiplying two numbers together as OR but based on the Piotrowski statement - "1500-2000 victims between the years 1944 and 1947 due to general civil strife that... constituting 2 to 3 percent of the total number of victims of postwar violence" - the total number of victims of postwar violence would be between 50,000 and 100,000. Unlike in the other case, there's no ambiguity here about what the relevant 'population' is.

Ok, now the following is a bit OR but it is mean to at least partly answer Molobo's question - based on pre war Polish population numbers and the number of losses of non Jewish Poles and Jewish Poles, at the end of the war there were about 300,000 Jewish Poles and 27.8 million Non-Jewish Poles, which gives a total population of 28.1 million. This means that at the end of the war Jews (including those who returned from SU) constituted 1.06% of the population. In the light of that the fact that Jewish victims were 2% or 3% of total number of victims of post war violence this is significant. This is another instance where seemingly 'small' percentages imply large numbers. Very roughly speaking, what this means is that a Jewish person had roughly double the chance of being attacked and murdered (about .5%) (whether for antisemitic or other reasons - such as just basic vulnerability to banditry) than a non-Jewish person (about .26%).

I think that putting the first part - the 50,000 to 100,000 or just the 2% to 3% in the lead would be a good idea in order to provide context. The second part is, like I said, a bit of synth, though it is very much based on well referenced numbers and provides additional way of looking at the information.radek (talk) 01:33, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Engel expressed similar ideas, that statistically the Jews were more likely to be subjected to violent attacks than the average statistical citizen of Poland, will need to check on that. M0RD00R (talk) 01:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Here it is: "Comparing the most easily identifiable and quantifiable features of attacks upon Jews and upon Polish government supporters appears to suggest, then, that each set of aggressive acts displayed its own characteristic fingerprint, as it were, and that the two fingerprints deviated from one another far more than they coincided. Jews were more at risk of being killed at different times and in different places than were government supporters, and Jewish women and children were in considerably greater danger than were Poles of the same sex and age." [4]. Whole chapters are dedicated to statistical analysis of anti-Jewish and anti-government violence. M0RD00R (talk) 01:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

POV

This Wikipedia assumes that Jewish victims are more important than Polish ones, compare the series of "Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 articles" (about 100 000 bytes) and Augustów chase 1945, (1700 bytes) - comparable number of victims.Xx236 (talk) 09:41, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

B class

As part of the B-class review for WikiProject Poland, I reviewed this article and it appears to continue to meet the criteria for B-class. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:22, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I think there were some problems with where particular text was placed. I moved stuff about blood libel out of the "The anti-communist armed resistance" section and put it in the blood libel section where it actually belongs. I also moved the explanation of Dobroszycki up to the top of the numbers section, since subsequently discussed studies refer to him. Volunteer Marek  21:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

VM, maybe you're the best person to have a go at an article dealing in general with late 1940s violence in Poland. I've read that there were anything between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths caused by civil war, insurgency (the continuity AK, e.g. WiN), counter-insurgency (UOP etc), anti-Semitism (Kielce and elsewhere), lawlessness, ethnic rivalry (involving Germans and Ukrainians in particular), social engineering, political murders (especially of PSL supporters) etc etc. Is there a Polish article on this that could serve as a model? -Chumchum7 (talk) 14:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

That's actually not a bad idea for an article but it's a pretty comprehensive subject which would entail the civil war you mention, Operation Wisla, as well as the extent of common banditry, etc. It would be quite an undertaking which would involve pulling info from several disparate sources. Basically, at the moment I just don't have the time to devote to something like that. Volunteer Marek  02:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Bad opening sentence, section "The anti-communist armed resistance."

The section opens with the words "As the West celebrated its victory over Germany in May 1945..." This is a poor sentence. It clearly states that victory over Germany was won in 1945 by the western powers and not by the USSR, not by a collaboration of both Eastern and Western european armies. Obviously that is not the subject of the article, and the main point the sentence is trying to make is "while the west was celebrating, such and such unrest was happening in Poland." However, it must be rewritten as "As the West celebrate THE victory over Germany," so as not to give sole credit to the Western Allies (the contribution of the USSR cannot be emphasized enough), or make a more generalized statement about Allies celebrating, not only the west. At home the USSR, Yugoslavia, and plenty of other countries were in a much more stable and celebratory mood than poland was after the war, so it could be said "As most of the Allied bloc celebrated the victory over Germany..." or something. I realize that this isn't the main point of the article, and is a very minor issue, however, when I read the article (which in general I found satisfactory), this one strange sentence jumped out and made my overall perception of its quality go down. It can, potentially, make one suspect the author(s) of the article of having a non-objective political stance (alas, the subject of WWII and the victory remains controvertial), which must be avoided at all cost in an article on such a touchy subject (judging from the rest of the discussion page) such as this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.152.6.195 (talk) 21:24, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a reasonable point, though I think that wording was just do to a simple grammar mistake. Anyway, I changed it per your suggestion. Volunteer Marek  21:31, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz

The article ignores (quite biased) book Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz.Xx236 (talk) 08:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

'Jews constituted between 2% and 3% of the total number of victims of postwar violence in the country,'

First, I don't see this said in the sources cited. Second, if we have a citation for 2000 Polish Jewish deaths at the time, and a separate citation for XX,000 total Polish deaths at the time, we can put those two numbers in one sentence with our percentage calculation, but not our percentage calculation alone, per WP:SYNTH. So: "Around XX,000 Poles were killed in the postwar violence in the country [citation], as were 2000 Jews [citation], XX% of the total." -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:13, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

It's from Piotrowski. BTW it's interesting if Piotrowski includes German victims. Xx236 (talk) 08:00, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

No pogrom in Rzeszów

There was no pogrom in Rzeszów. A girl was murdered and evidenced found (?) in a Jewish flat. According to a report it was a "small anti-Jewish manifestation". Xx236 (talk) 09:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

This statement speaks volumes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.102.53.246 (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

This page speaks volumes, and your comment speak volums. Liberated prisoners committed many crimes, Poles, Jews, Russians. You don't become a saint in Auschwitz.

If everything is a pogrom, than a pogrom is nothing.

No similar pages about Anti-Jewish violence in Hungary, Slovakia, SU. Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

? — No relation to this article. Southern Poverty Law Center is a private law firm from Alabama representing victims of harassment, threats, and violence for profit as listed in Wikipedia. Poeticbent talk 16:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this is irrelevant to this particular article, but just wanted to note that they're actually a non-profit.VolunteerMarek 16:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Improve the article - Postwar antisemitism in Poland and its main reasons

The article should contain some more specific information as now it clearly attacks the Polish people. First of the main reasons of the Polish antisemitism were the postwar Jewish relations with the communists whom the Poles seen as the second occupants next to the nazis, while the Jews seen them as saviors and collaborated with them very tightly (Józef Różański is a perfect example here). The second reason is the Arab-Israeli war, where Polish people condemned Israel, claiming that Jews didn't learn nothing from what the Germans did to them, and they do the exact same thing to the Plestinian nation. Poles were disgusted by this, therefore many Poles started to see the Jews as imperialists, backstabbers and hipocrites. That's basically it. Antisemitism didn't exist in Poland until the 20th century. Jews in Poland had basically more privileges than ethnic Poles (you can read about it in many histroical sources), that's why Jewish people called Poland "the new promised land" and "the Jewish haven". Polish antisemitism started with the Soviet occupation and identifying the Jews with the communist occupants (so called Zydokomuna - you can also read about it). That's the main root of the matter. My opinion is - make a section titled i.e. Resons of antisemitism in Poland and put all the information there pointed out one by one. And please, be objective, because now the article is clearly biased against Poles. Don't you have this feeling? 192.162.150.105 (talk) 06:32, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The main reasons were:

the Nazi propaganda, isolation of the Jews, the Shoah;

the extermination of educated Poles and Communist toleration of crimes committed by socially preferred class;

the robbery of Jewish goods.Xx236 (talk) 06:58, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

as the Zionist underground concluded that there was no future for Jews in Europe

Zionists needed Jews in Palestine, so such opinion has no value.

At the very beginning the Soviets supported Israel.

The Jews in Poland wanted authonomy in Lower Silesia. When they were refused, they understood the idea of Stalinism.Xx236 (talk) 13:33, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

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