Talk:Ana Ivanovic

Vast and unimportant

Some of the greatest people in history have shorter Wikipedia entries than Ana Ivanovic. Even as a tennis player she wasn't important enough to deserve this gargantuan entry. 74.128.114.146 (talk) 01:02, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 18 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There are more opposes than supports, and they cite the observation that the subject is commonly known in English without the diacritics. Some supporters pointed out that she uses it on her social media sites, but then others were identified that do not use it, so the MOS:IDENTITY argument is somewhat weak. Overall there is a rough consensus against moving at this time.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

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Ana Ivanovic → Ana Ivanović – Original name is Ana Ivanović. 5.43.102.127 (talk) 15:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - the only thing that has changed from the last 5 failed attempts is that Ivanovic got married and is now Ana Schweinsteiger. Her personal webpage does not use Schweinsteiger, it uses Ana Ivanovic as it always has. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Fyunck(click). This entry has 119 inline cites and, as far as can be determined, none uses the diacritic. Furthermore, under section header "External links", there are links to subject's official website and three tennis databases, none of which indicates her surname with the diacritic. Although Bosnian Wikipedia, Croatian Wikipedia, Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, Slovene Wikipedia and a number of others do use a diacritic for this surname, which is common in its native region, subject has apparently decided not to use the diacritic and her non-use has been respected in all reliable sources. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:23, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support - restore, consistent with all other East Europe BLPs the time for this campaign to make this tennis player the single sore thumb on en.wp has long passed. Let a Serbian be Serbian, and stop this nonsense. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Strong support per MOS:IDENTITY. She uses the proper spelling in her Instagram profile, her own logo, etc. Furthermore, it is incredibly inconsistent to have article titles like this: Ivanovic–Janković rivalry... Neodop (talk) 00:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

  She also uses no diacritic in the the proper spelling of this logo and personal website. And her facebook page name has none. Her last logo on facebook does have the diacritic. Most of her signatures and printing does not. It is very inconsistent and can change week to week. That is a difference from before when it was consistent that she did NOT use a diacritic in English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

See also WP:SERBIANNAMES. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment – what has been the practice till now? FkpCascais (talk) 21:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

  @FkpCascais:The practice has been to ignore all tennis authority sources and all English language sources, in regards to spelling. Including the spelling anyone uses in their required tennis registration. What we have gone with was personal usage in English. If a player has personal websites that they control, verified signatures, etc, that show they do not usually use diacritics in English, then we do not use diacritics here. If we have zero to go on, as with a low ranked player that really has no English input other than tennis scores, we tend to use the diacritics from their home country. There are always exceptions at wikipedia such as actor Raúl Juliá who was shown to personally spell his name with diacritics in multiple sources, yet was voted down in its usage by the community. Ivanovic has always disdained from diacritics in all her personal usage in English. Even her signature. However, two of her personal websites have recently changed to include it (Instagram & Twitter), but not in other sites. I don't think we'll get anymore current signatures because she has official change her name to "Ana Schweinsteiger." Some wikipedia articles move to the new name but tennis tends to use the name under which they became notable. Because of the two social account changes this move request was quite reasonable. Whether those two items are enough, especially with a logo that doesn't use it, is what is being questioned here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

  @FkpCascais: the practice for en.wp BLPs? As Fyunck says "The practice has been to ignore all tennis authority sources and all English language sources" - he's almost correct. :) There are a few high-MOS sources tennis books which use more than basic ASCII fonts, but not many, British, American and Australian sports writers and their publishers would be typographically challenged by café or Emily Brontë. And again along the lines of what Fyunck says en.wp practice is to not follow low-MOS sources for the entire article corpus, both title and text body. This is a fact - anyone can verify from a few clicks: Category:Serbian female tennis players, via Category:Towns_in_Malta to Category:Vietnamese footballers, to random article generator link Special:Random. The entire corpus of en.wikipedia's 6,146,513 follows this, except for (a) names outside the 26 letter standard Latin/English alphabet, (b) this article where Fyunck has being leading a WP:OWN local consensus since the bio was given an "English name" in 2012 Talk:Ana_Ivanovic/Archive_6#Requested_move_2012_#1. Fyunck has also been through the article corpus text removing ć from any mention of Ivanović, typically from pages bristling with full-fonts for other people. Either way this RM requires a relist to get broader set of eyes on this particular sore thumb. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

  Knock off the continual lying about me with OWN In ictu oculi, and stop making things personal. You have been warned many times by administrators about lying about people in the past so lying about them again doesn't get you any brownie points except with others who are incapable of telling the truth. Stop making things personal and stick to the topic at hand. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. I suppose my suggestion that you have been "leading an WP:OWN local consensus" was unnecessary and and I'm happy to apologise and strike that. It's a distraction from the basic point per MOS:IDENTITY made by Nedop above the subject of the BLP uses the Serbian spelling in her Instagram profile, her own logo, etc. And as Nedop says it inconsistent to have article titles like this: Ivanovic–Janković rivalry. Let's focus on that. Cheers. -- would also politely request the admin closer (ideally should be an admin close since this is a BLP) to address in the closing statement from policy why this BLP should be different MOS or same MOS as all other East European living persons please. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

It will be a case of community consensus overrides MOS, a la WP:IAR, which is pretty straightforward to understand. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 10:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

No, it will not, because that is exactly the opposite of what WP:LOCALCONSENSUS says: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale." Even if the same editors keep voting to have one BLP treated differently from all other East Europe BLPs, that WP:LOCALCONSENSUS cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. Fundamentally neither you, nor the others, have provided any policy-based reason why this BLP cannot have the MOS:IDENTITY shown on Instagram profile, her own logo, and shown in "sources reliable for purpose" (i.e. in this context sources with full Unicode Latin fonts). In ictu oculi (talk) 13:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Well you sound rather angry there. The irony, of course, is that you have policy (IAR) vs policy (CONSENSUS) vs guideline (MOS). So should this discussion go against your personal preference once again, it should be taken with a pinch of salt because all such outcomes are allowable. I'm sorry it's so upsetting for you, but this is a community project. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Would also politely request the admin closer check Category:Serbian people by occupation to verify the fact that en.wp does use Serbian fonts in Serbian BLPs, as indeed any other article anywhere on en.wp. Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - We should go without the diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 21:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per the perennial attempts, above which this offers precisely nothing. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 20:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support the perennial attempt, always opposed by the same group of editors. I fail to see why this article is treated differently from thousands of articles about Eastern European people and places, where we use diacritics according to proper spelling in the native alphabet. I don't think that the spelling used by Ivanović on her personal page ages ago, counts for a MOS:IDENTITY exception. The evidence provided by Neodop and In ictu oculi is pretty convincing. No such user (talk) 20:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Roman Spinners and TRM. -- Calidum 15:41, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A decade of special Anglicization for one Serbian

The the three man RM to separate Ana Ivanović from the rest of the Serbian BLP article corpus to an "English" was accomplished 21 February 2012. Keeping this article at odds with the rest of the encyclopedia has been rigorously defended for a decade. After a decade is there any stomach to return the article to en.wp normality? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)