Talk:Alan Dawa Dolma

Name

If her name is actually a-lan zla-ba sgrol-ma in Wylie, then it is Alen Dawa Drölma in the THDL system, not "Alan", since the "standard" Tibetan pronunciation would be [álɛ̃ dàwa ɖø̀lma] (perhaps without the [l]). The fact that she goes by "alan" is probably because that's the Chinese pronunciation, and it might also be because it is pronounced that way in her local dialect.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

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Honestly I think you are correct. But let's leave it this way lest it gets too confusing. 129.130.204.26 (talk) 15:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm just suggesting that we remove dubious information. Do we have a source for the Wylie/Tibetan spelling of her name? Since the THDL spelling is intended to show a standard/Lhasa pronunciation, it isn't really appropriate for this article, since Alan is from elsewhere and her cultural relevance is not based in the Tibetophone world.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 17:45, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Fashion model

In Japanese fashion model business, most top models are tied to one magazine. They have to contract exclusivity. Currently, alan is regarded as a popular model in one of the most famous Japanese fashion magazine AneCan. For this reason I added alan to the fashion model.--Mogaop (talk) 09:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

And as I said, modeling for one magazine does not make her a model nor does it warrant a new infobox. It doesn't matter if she has an exclusive contract with them or not. For her to be considered a model she has to have experience in the model industry, working for more than one company. You can mention in the article with a reliable source that she has been chosen to model for AneCan, but she doesn't need her own infobox. Remember first and foremost Alan is a singer, everything else can just be written in the article. Look at Jennifer Lopez, she's a singer and actress but they don't use two infoboxes. They focus on her main career and mention the second career in the article. 月 (Moon)と暁 (Sunrise) 12:33, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I reverted the article. Which is your opinion?

1. She is a singer, not a fashion model.

2. She is a singer and a fashion model, but Wikipedia shoulde not put two infoboxes for one preson.

AneCan is not her first job as a model. And also she says, "I am a model" at http://ameblo.jp/alan-avex/entry-10258032730.html . I believe your opinion is 2. However, I cannot find the Wikipedia rule, "No two infoboxes". --Mogaop (talk) 16:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I would say two also. What's the point of having two infoboxes when all the information is the same? The only difference is you list her height, eye and hair color. You have no source saying that she model for any other company. I strongly suggest you read WP:BRD and reach consensus before reverting again. She says she's a model, so what? A next infobox still is not needed. 月 (Moon)と暁 (Sunrise) 17:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Chinese discography

Has anyone else noticed that while her Japanese discography is well and up-to-date, there is little information of her Chinese discography? There is no article for "Chi Bi: Da Jiang Dong Qu" (Red Cliff: The Great River Flows West) or her 2 full-length Chinese albums with Avex "Xin De Dong Fang" and "Lan Se: Love Moon Light" (Blue Color: Love Moon Light). --115.64.132.128 (talk) 05:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, can someone who has a Chinese-English translator, or who understands Chinese, please translate the Chinese Wikipedia articles for Xin De Dong Fang and Lan Se: Love Moon Light? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.132.128 (talk) 05:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

File:Alan Dawa Dolma MTV VMAJ Flea Market for Tohoku.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Where did she learn Japanese?

Where did she learn Japanese? 86.174.44.201 (talk) 00:48, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Number 57 15:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

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Alan Dawa Dolma → Alan (Chinese singer) – She has never been credited as Alan Dawa Dolma in English, her stage name in English since her Japanese days in English has always been alan (with a lower case "a"). I do understand the political sensitivity of Tibetan vs. Chinese but that shouldn't be reason not to move the page to the right place, and the Chinese label shouldn't be controversial since she clearly identifies with it. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 13:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC) Timmyshin (talk) 06:57, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - The proposed name is confusing. "Alan" is androgynous, so why can't the industry use "A-Lan" instead (阿蘭)? Also, Lan (蘭) is more of a feminine name, so it may not be masculine at all. Also, she's not even "Chinese singer", so why not "Tibetan singer" instead? Also, no reliable source uses the proposed name, and CNN Outlook Tibet use the current name. China Daily uses the current name, although it mistakenly considers her Chinese. --Gh87 in the public computer (talk) 23:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't have any particular opinion on the "Alan" part, however the reasoning that you give relating to the disambiguator is flawed. She self-identifies as a Chinese, therefore she is a Chinese. Third-party reliable sources affirm this. This is the site-wide trend and consensus that the Wikipedia community appears to be following, based on the earlier precedent given by the Chelsea Manning case. Furthermore, you seem to be confusing nationality with ethnicity, which are not the same thing - even though Mark Zuckerberg is an Ashkenazim, he is an American, and not a German. --benlisquare_T•C•E 23:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• ...Let's leave that "Chelsea" part out of this. A-Lan (阿蘭) is a self-identified genetically female person, not a self-identified transgender person. Period. As for Tibet thing, it was a sovereign state until the communist China invaded it. But I don't have much an opinion on that, as there is no guideline about Tibetan people. --George Ho (talk) 18:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• ""Alan" is androgynous, so why can't the industry use "A-Lan" instead" — it's not for us to answer the question. We have to follow the name she uses in the entertainment, i.e. WP:COMMONNAME, which is "alan" not "A-Lan". As for the disambiguator, Benlisquare already explained it. Timmyshin (talk) 07:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

How the Japanese record company uses it in a limited pool of sources in Japan is not sufficient to override MOS:CHINESE for names in non-English script. The Amazon.cn album cover here clearly shows aLan with a raised capital L in the English to indicate a-Lan (female) not Alan (male) Japanese language texts with "alan" do not determine how we represent the name of a Chinese national called 阿兰 A-Lan, and called A-Lan in mainland Chinese English publications, CCTV English, Beijing Review and so on. We can't crystal ball of course, but it's extremely unlikely any credible print source will in the future follow Japanese html rather than CCTV. For now let's stick to the MOS. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• How can you claim that "aLan" should be interpreted as "A-Lan" in English? Since you claim this and that publications use "A-Lan" please provide links. Timmyshin (talk) 19:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I am saying that "aLan" should be given as "A-Lan" in English because CCTV English, Beijing Review and so on do so, but CCTV English, Beijing Review are not "interpreting" a Japanese album stylism, but vice-versa the Japanese album stylism "aLan" is interpreting A-Lan which is the normal Chinese way of writing this name. Even the fact that it is "aLan" indicates that your proposal to move the male name Alan (not aLan) is problematic, and will probably lead people to think of male singers such as Alam Tam or Alan Ko. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Where did you find the CCTV English article, the Beijing Review article and the so on article that use "A-Lan"? Timmyshin (talk) 04:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - move to A-Lan Dawa Zhuoma (with redirect created from A-Lan Dawa Dolma per WP:NATURAL and WP:PINYIN. Yes in Japan she has a stylism "alan" for A-Lan, but 阿兰 is without exception always "A-Lan", just as any other Chinese girl's nickname with the 阿- prefix (approximates to Yorkshire "Our Kat'", for "Catherine". We shouldn't be following Japanese stylisms even when they overspill into the English edition of the Japan Times: "Later on, alan decided that having a family name would be useful, but her full name was just too long. “I combined my father’s name and my mother’s name to Atu-Lantai, but Atu-Lantai Dawa Zhuoma was too long for a passport so I made it simpler” she says. “So I put them together and made a surname: A-Lan. It’s very rare and special, I think.”. Zhuoma (girl Boddhisvata) is an extremely common Tibetan girl's suffix in China, and spelling it after processing via Japanese katakana into English Dolma seems odd. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• "阿兰 is without exception always "A-Lan",just as any other Chinese girl's nickname..." - unfounded claim/original research. In China she also stylizes her name as "alan" or "aLan", see [1] [2], never with a hyphen and never with Dawa Dolma/Dawa Zhuoma anywhere in any language. Timmyshin (talk) 07:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Google Books is not "original research", please look in Google Books and see how 阿兰 (Ah-Orchid) is without exception always "A-Lan", just as any other Chinese girl's nickname beginning with 阿- is "A- ".In ictu oculi (talk) 06:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• You haven't provided a single link so I've no clue what you referring to. Timmyshin (talk) 19:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

See Google Books "A Lan"In ictu oculi (talk) 00:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• What am I supposed to see there? I'm not finding the singer anywhere. Timmyshin (talk) 04:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Any non-blind person would see there is no "A-lan", nor "Dawa Dolma", nor "Dawa Zhuoma" anywhere.

file:Ashitaenosenka.jpg file:Hitotsucdonly.jpg file:Longingfuturecdonly.jpg file:sorautacdonly.jpg file:Kazenotegamicdonly.jpg (Non-images removed for violating WP:NFCC by being used outside article namespace.)
Timmyshin (talk) 04:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Timmyshin

1. insults based on disabilities are not allowed on Wikipedia, see WP:NPA
2. the use of these graphics here is not covered by fair use
3. I still agree with George Ho on "A-Lan".
4. but before these graphics are removed by an admin, what do you see in these graphics? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

George thanks for removing the images. Timmyshin, for the record the images had the artist with the title, aLan five times, not Alan. Particularly with the "Any non-blind person" comment above should be clear that the second letter is a capital L, a Japanese record company representation that 阿兰 is without exception always "A-Lan", not "Alan". In ictu oculi (talk) 01:16, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• You have made the same claim 3 times but have not shown once where the hyphen is. And for the third time, where did you find the CCTV English article, the Beijing Review article and the so on article that use "A-Lan"? Timmyshin (talk) 02:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• The Japanese record company's website for this artist: http://alan-web.jp/index.html. Where do you see "aLan" or "A-Lan"? Timmyshin (talk) 02:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Timmyshin

After your "Any non-blind person" comment you posted 5 images.

What do you see on the images you posted; do you see "Alan" or "aLan"? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. I see no problem whatsoever with the article in its current namesake. There are other Chinese singers named Alan. Many names are androgynous; in addition, entertainers often adopt androgynous names and I don't see a problem that needs to be solved by camelcasing "aLan". I'm a bit reticent to embrace album art as a RS for the name because they all have fancy lettering that is often associated with logos and styling, which should be ignored by our guidelines. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 03:43, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• If album art is not RS, how about an official site? http://alan-web.jp/index.html Timmyshin (talk) 02:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• Can you list any particular Chinese singers known commonly by "Alan". If "(Chinese singer)" is ambiguous or otherwise problematic, I'd prefer her full name be used as at present. —innotata 06:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support (although open to other names) it's clear that her predominant stage name is "alan" in roman characters. The arguments put forward against the move are a bit much. I won't go into how obviously wrong complaints about 'androgyny' are. Addressing the others: "aLan" appears to be a stylisation for albums given material calling her "alan"; a citation is needed for saying that "A-Lan" is the correct romanisation of her name and even then that must be weighed against the roman (and katakana) renditions of her name. —innotata 06:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.