Talk:Al-Aqsa Mosque

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2023

Please add the following passage to section 4.4 Conflicts:

On the morning of 5 April 2023, Israeli forces smashed doors and windows to enter al-Aqsa mosque and deployed stun grenades and rubber bullets once inside. Footage shared on social media showed Israeli officers striking screaming people with batons inside the building. Israeli police said their forces entered the mosque after "hundreds of rioters...barricaded themselves inside." When the police entered, stones were thrown at them and fireworks were fired from inside the mosque. Police arrested more than 350 people in the mosque and at least 12 people were injured during the clash. Later that evening, Israeli forces stormed al-Aqsa again, deployed stun grenades, and ordered Muslim worshippers to leave. Six people were treated for injuries.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/05/middleeast/israel-al-aqsa-mosque-clash-intl-hnk/index.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neoman2026 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Another addition for the conflict section, in light of recent events:

Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa Mosque complex on fifth day of Sukkot

Ryz (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Aqsa

Al Aqsa (compound) is back in the news today. I have been slowly compiling User talk:Onceinawhile/MAA, a list of pre-modern historical references to the term Masjid Al Aqsa. I still have not found any pre-modern Arabic sources using the term Masjid Al Aqsa to refer to the subject of this article. I proposed at Talk:Temple Mount#Masjid Al Aqsa article that the modern partial application of Masjid Al Aqsa to the southern building may be due to the 1865 Ordnance Survey, and I have yet to find anything to disprove that theory.

I have been working my way through Kaplony's 800-page work on the compound. Of the sources he refers to in the footnote to A084 (page 39 note 3) I have checked a good number and all have failed to help so far [I have not managed to get my hands of all of them yet], and his support for B202.6 is bizarre as he writes "Nasir calls this building al-Masjid al-Aqsà", quoting Le Strange where he read Nasir, yet reading Le Strange's quotation of Nasir it says the exact opposite.[1] All very frustrating work. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Nasir

Here is a longer translation of Nasir. He is taking us on a tour of the Haram and when he comes to the main building he calls it Al-Masjid Al-'Aqsâ. The "cradle of Jesus" is in the south-east part of the Haram. "Du côté oriental de cette mosquée on trouve le mihrâb de Maryam ainsi qu’un autre mihrâb attribué à Zacharie ; sur ces deux mihrâbs sont tracés les versets du Qôran qui se rapportent à Zacharie et à Marie. On dit que Jésus est né dans ce sanctuaire, sur une pierre de l’un de ses piliers. On y trouve l’em­ preinte de deux doigts, comme si une personne l’avait saisie. On dit que Marie, en accouchant, l’avait tenue de ses doigts. Cette mosquée s’appelle le berceau de Jésus. On y remarque des lampes nombreuses en cuivre et en argent. On les allume chaque soir. En sortant de ce sanctuaire et en suivant le mur oriental, on trouve, en arrivant à l’angle de l’enceinte du Haram, une autre mosquée très vaste, deux (ou plutôt dix) fois plus grande que celle du berceau de Jésus; elle s’appelle Al-Masjid Al-'Aqsâ. C’est celui vers lequel Dieu fit voyager nuitamment l’Élu, la nuit de l’ascension, de la Mecque; et c’est de là qu’il est monté au ciel, selon la parole du Qôran : « Soit exalté celui qui fit voyager nuitamment son serviteur de la mosquée sacrée à al-Masjid al-’Aqsâ »." (Marmardji, Textes Géographiques Arabes sur la Palestine, p218). That seems to contradict the description of Le Strange in his book, but in Le Strange's full translation of Nasir in "Diary of a Journey thorough Syria and Palestine" he puts it like this: "After passing the entrance to this mosque [the Cradle of Jesus], near by the (south-east) angle of the east wall (of the Haram Area), you come to a great and beautiful mosque, which is other than that called the Cradle of Jesus, and is of many times its size. This is called the Masjid al Aksa (or the Further Mosque), and it is that to which Allah — be He exalted and glorified! — brought His chosen (Apostle) in the night journey from Mekkah..." A few sentences later the text refers to the "main building (of the Aksa mosque)", but here it isn't clear whether the parenthetical comment comes from Nasir or Le Strange. Zero^talk 13:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

A footnote to this. Nasir refers to the whole compound as "the Masjid", but when he comes to introduce the southern building he says explicitly "It is called Masjid al-Aqsa." With the help of a Persian friend I verified that "Masjid" is the word used in the Persian original as it appears near the top of Persian page 25 in Schefer's edition (page 422 by the archive.org numbering). Zero^talk 01:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Zero0000: that is really helpful. Here is an extract of the Persian:

و چون از در اين مسجد بگذري هم بر ديوار شرقي چون به گوشه مسجد بزرگ رسند، مسجدي ديگر است عظيم نيكو، دوباره بزرگ تر از مسجد مهد عيسي و آن را مسجد الاقصي گويند و آن است كه خداي، عزوجل، مصطفي را صلي الله عليه و سلم شب معراج از مكه آنجا آورد، و از آنجا به آسمان شد چنانكه در قرآن آن را ياد كرده است: «سبحان الذي اسري بعبده ليلا من المسجدالحرام الي المسجدالاقصي». الآيه و آنجا را عمارتي به تكلف كرده‌اند و فرش هاي پاكيزه افكنده و خادمان جداگانه ايستاده هميشه خدمت آن را كنند و چون به ديوار جنوبي بازگردي از آن گوشه مقدار دويست گز پوشش نيست و ساحت است و پوشش مسجد بزرگ، كه مقصوره در اوست، بر ديوار جنوبي است و غربي اين پوشش را چهارصد و بيست ارش طول است در صد و پنجاه ارش عرض و دويست و هشتاد ستون رخامي است و بر سر اسطوانه‌ها طاقي از سنگ درزده و همه سر و تن ستونها منقش است و درزها به ارزيز گرفته، چنانکه از آن محکم تر نتواند بود و ميان دو ستون شش گز است همه فرش رخام ملون انداخته و درزها را به ارزير گرفته، چنانکه از آن محکم تر نتواند بود و ميان دو شش گزاست همه فرش رخام ملون انداخته به ارزيز گرفته و مقصوره بر وسط ديوار جنوبي است، بسيار بزرگ چنان كه شانزده ستون در آنجا ست و قبه اي نيز عظيم بزرگ منقش به مينا، چنان كه صفت كرده آمد و در آنجا حصيرهايي مغربي انداخته و قنديل‌ها و مسرج‌ها جداجدا به سلسله‌ها آويخته است و محرابي بزرگ ساخته‌اند، همه منقش به مينا و دو جانب محراب دو عمود رخام ـ است به رنگ عقيق سرخ و تمامت ازاره مقصوره رخام هاي ملون و بر دست راست محراب معاويه است، و بر دست چپ محراب عمر است، رضي الله عنه و سقف اين مسجد به چوب پوشيده است، منقش و متكلف و دو ديوار مقصوره كه با جانب ساحت است پانزده درگاه است و درهاي به تكلف بر آنجا نهاده هر يك ده گز علو در شش گز عرض ده از آن جمله بر آن ديوار كه چهارصد و بيست گز است، و پنج بر آنكه صد و پنجاه گز است، و از جمله آن درها يكي برنجي بيش از حدبه تكلف و نيكويي ساخته‌اند، چنان كه گويي زرين است، به سيم سوخته نقش كرده، و نام مامون خليفه بر آنجاست ـ گويند مامون از بغداد فرستاده است ـ و چون همه درها باز كنند، اندرون مسجد چنان روشن شود كه گويي ساحت بي سقف است اما وقتي كه باد و باران باشد و درها باز نكنند، روشني از روزن‌ها باشد و بر چهار جانب اين پوشش از آن شهري از شهرهاي شام و عراق صندوق هاست و مجاوران نشسته، چنان كه اندر مسجد حرام است به مكه، شرفهاالله تعالي و ازبيرون پوشش بر ديوار بزرگ كه ذكر رفت رواقي است به چهل و دو طاق و همه ستون هاش از رخام ملون و اين رواق با رواق مغربي پيوسته است و در اندرون پوشش حوضي در زمين است، كه چون سر نهاده باشد با زمين مستوي باشد، جهت آب، تا چون باران آيد در آنجا رود و بر ديوار جنوبي دري است و آنجا متوضاست و آب، كه اگر كسي مخناج وضوي شود در آنجا رود وتجديد وضو كند، چه اگر از مسجد بيرون شود به نماز نرسد و نماز فوت شود، از بزرگي مسجد و همه پشت بام‌ها به ارزير اندوده باشد، و در زمين مسجد حوض‌ها و آبگيرها بسيار است، در زمين بريده، چه مسجد به يكباره بر سر سنگ است، چنانكه هر چند باران ببارد هيچ آب بيرون نرود و تلف نشود همه در آبگيرها رود و مردم بر مي دارند و ناودانها از ارزيز ساخته که آب بدان فرود آيد، و حوض هاي سنگين در زير ناودان‌ها نهاده، سوراخي در زير آن كه آب از آن سوراخ به مجري رود و به حوض رسد، ملوث ناشده، و آسيب به وي نارسيده

Now to compare it to the Le Strange quote (1890, p.97): Nâsir-i-Khusrau, who wrote in Persian, uses for the Main-building of the Aksâ Mosque the Persian word Pûshish, that is, “Covered part," which exactly translates the Arabic Al Mughatta. On some occasions, however, the Aksâ Mosque (as we call it) is spoken of by Nâsir as the Maksûrah, a term used especially to denote the railed-off oratory of the Sultan, facing the Mihrâb, and hence in an extended sense applied to the building which includes the The great Court of the Haram Area, Nâsir always speaks of as the Masjid, or the Masjid al Akså, or again as the Friday Mosque (Masjid-i-Jum'ah).

Onceinawhile (talk) 06:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

To understand this you have to realise that Le Strange considers "Aksa Mosque" to mean the compound, so by "main building of the Aksa Mosque" he means "main building of what Le Strange calls the Aksa Mosque". It is true that Nasir refers to the covered part of "the masjid", meaning the covered part of the compound, but it is undeniable that he refers specifically to the building as Masjid al Aqsa. It is near the top of your Persian quote: "When you have left the mosque of the cradle of Jesus, you arrive, following the eastern wall, at the corner of the Haram enclosure. There is another extremely beautiful mosque there, which is twice as large as that of the cradle of Jesus. It bears the name of Masjid el Aqsa." First, the "cradle of Jesus" is itself within the compound yet "Masjid el Aqsa" is being compared to it, and second the compound is vastly more than twice the size of it. Le Strange does not disagree with this reading of the Persian, see the quote from him I gave above, and if you factor in Le Strange's meaning for al Aqsa I don't see a contradiction. For Nasir's name of the whole compound see Shefer's footnote on page 72: "Nasir designates, under the name of Masjid, the enclosure of the temple and all the monuments which have been erected there. I sometimes substitute in the translation for the word Masjid those of Haram or Haram es Sharif which is the term under which we designate the courtyard, the dome of the Sakhrah and the Masjid el Aqsa." I don't know of any instance where Nasir clearly names the compound as Masjid el Aqsa. Zero^talk 09:46, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The translation of Thackston is equivalent: "Passing out through the door, again on the east wall at a corner of the large sanctuary area, you see another very beautiful mosque, twice as large as Jesus' Cradle Mosque, called al-Aqsa Mosque." and also see the footnote on page 23 that agrees with Schefer. Zero^talk 12:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Mujir ad-Din

Mujir ad-Din (ca. 1496) wrote that in his day the name Al-Aksa was most commonly applied to the southern building, even though he disagreed on the grounds that the building is modern. Here are two French translations of the relevant sentence: Marmardji p225: "Il a été déjà dit, au commencement de la description d'al- Masjid al-'Aqsâ, que l’opinion généralement admise parmi les gens est qu'al-'Aqsâ est la mosquée construite du côté sud au fond de l’enceinte d'al-Masjid et dans laquelle sont renfermés le Minbar et le Grand Mihrâb."; Sauvaire, Historire de Jérusalem et D'Hébron, pp120–121 : "Nous avons déjà dit, en faisant pour la première fois la description du Masdjed, que, communément, on donnait le nom d'El-Aqsa à la mosquée construite au fond de l'enceinte sacre'e, du côté du sud, et renfermant la chaire et le grand Mehrâb." This proves that the application of the name to only the building is not a modern innovation. Since Mujir ad-Din is referring to something he wrote earlier, we can inspect that place as a check. Marmardji, p247 : "La mosquée de commu­ nauté (Jâmi') qui se trouve au fond de son enceinte, auprès de la Qiblah où l’on fait la prière du vendredi — celle connue parmi le peuple sous le nom d,al-Masjid al-Aqsâ — embrasse un grand édifice où l’on trouve une coupole élevée et ornée de châtons coloriés."; Sauvaire, p95 : "Le Djâmé' (mosquée) qui en occupe le fond, auprès delà qebleh (la partie méridionale) où se célèbre la prière du vendredi, et qui est communément appelé le Masdjed- el-Aqsa , se compose d'un grand bâtiment surmonté d'une coupole élevée et ornée de chatons de diverses couleurs (mosaïques); au dessous de la coupole se trouve le Menbar (la chaire) et le Mehrâb." So, according to Mujir ad-Din, in his day "Masjid al-Aqsa" was the common name for the building alone, but he himself disagreed. Zero^talk 03:56, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe the Arabic is here but I'm not going to mine it. Zero^talk 12:06, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is a selectable version:[2]

واما ذرع الْمَسْجِد فقد اجتهدت فِي تحريره وتوليت ذَلِك بنفسي وَقيس بحضوري بالحبال فَكَانَ طوله قبْلَة بشمال من السُّور القبلي عِنْد الْمِحْرَاب الْمَعْرُوف بمحراب دَاوُد عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام الى صدر الرواق الشمالي عِنْد بَاب الأسباط سِتّمائَة وَسِتِّينَ ذِرَاعا بِذِرَاع الْعَمَل الَّتِي تذرع الابنية بِهِ فِي عصرنا غير عرض السورين وان كَانَ فِيهِ زِيَادَة اَوْ نقص نَحْو ذراعين اَوْ ثَلَاثَة فَهِيَ لاضطراب الْقيَاس لبعد الْمسَافَة فَإِنِّي احتطت فِي تحريره وَقيس بحضوري مرَّتَيْنِ حَتَّى تحققت صِحَة الْقيَاس وَعرضه شرقا بغرب من السُّور الشَّرْقِي المطل على مَقَابِر بَاب الرَّحْمَة الى صدر الرواق الغربي الَّذِي هُوَ سفل مجمع الْمدرسَة التنكزية اربعمائة ذِرَاع وَسِتَّة اذرع بِذِرَاع الْعَمَل غير عرض السورين (تَنْبِيه) قد تقدم عِنْد ابْتِدَاء ذكر صفة الْمَسْجِد الْأَقْصَى أَن الْمُتَعَارف عِنْد النَّاس أَن الْأَقْصَى من جِهَة الْقبْلَة الْجَامِع الْمَبْنِيّ فِي صدر الْمَسْجِد الَّذِي بِهِ الْمِنْبَر والمحراب الْكَبِير وَحَقِيقَة الْحَال ان الْأَقْصَى اسْم لجَمِيع الْمَسْجِد مِمَّا دَار عَلَيْهِ السُّور وَذكر قِيَاسه هُنَا طولا وعرضا فان هَذَا الْبناء الْمَوْجُود فِي صدر الْمَسْجِد وَغَيره من قبَّة الصَّخْرَة والأروقة وَغَيرهَا محدثة وَالْمرَاد بِالْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى هُوَ جمع مَا دَار عَلَيْهِ السُّور - كَمَا تقدم - وَأما صحن الصَّخْرَة الشَّرِيفَة فطوله قبْلَة بشام من السُّور القبلي الَّذِي هُوَ بَين الدرجتين القبليتين يمر بِالْقِيَاسِ فِيمَا بَين بَاب الصَّخْرَة الشَّرْقِي وقبة السلسلة الى السُّور الشمالي المشرف على جِهَة بَاب حطة مِائَتَان وَخَمْسَة وَثَلَاثُونَ ذِرَاعا وَعرضه شرقا بغرب من السُّور الشَّرْقِي المشرف على الزَّيْتُون عِنْد قبَّة الطومار الى السُّور الغربي الْمُقَابل للمدرسة الشَّرِيفَة السُّلْطَانِيَّة مائَة وَتِسْعَة وَثَمَانُونَ ذِرَاعا كل ذَلِك بِذِرَاع

Onceinawhile (talk) 23:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Al-'Umari

Al-'Umarî, ca.1342, from Marmardji p236 : "A la suite de Jâmi' al-Magâribah se trouve une vaste place suivie elle-même de Jâmi' an-Nisâ' dont la longueur, de l’est à l’ouest, est de 62 pics et demi, et la largeur, du sud au nord, est de 22 pics et deux tiers. Il consiste en deux gale­ ries dont le toit a 12 cintres; chaque galerie en a 6 qui sont soutenus au milieu par six piliers massifs. Dans sa partie antérieure, il y a 5 fenêtres dont la première a pour largeur 2 pics et demi; pour profondeur dans le rempart, 3 pics — ce qui est la profondeur de ce rempart lui-même, dans cette région — et pour hauteur, 3 pics et un tiers. Le reste des fenêtres ont une mesure infé­ rieure à celle-ci. Dans son mur occidental, il y a une fenêtre donnant sur le quar­ tier des Magâribah. La porte de ce Jâmi' s’ouvre vers le nord. Dans chacun de ses chambranles, il y a quatre colonnes de marbre blanc (unis) dans un même corps et ayant pour longueur, en dehors des bases, 2 pics moins un quart. Devant ce même Jâmi` il y a deux noyers, sous lesquels se trouve une estrade où les gens prient. On entre par la dite porte et on descend par cinq degrés jusqu’aux galeries mentionnées. De la porte de Jâmi' an-Nisâ' à distance de 27 pics, en direction de l’est, se trouve la porte occidentale parmi les portes du Jâmi' appelé à présent al-Masjid al-Aqsâ.". Zero^talk 00:21, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

This one is very interesting. A detailed description of the compound is included. A part I didn't notice before is on page 212:

ولنذكر الان ما يتعلق بصفة المسجد الأقصى، وما اشتمل عليه من المزارات، على ما استقر عليه بناؤه إلى سنة ثلاث وأربعين وسبعمائة.

It appears to speak of shrines "included" in al-Masjid al-Aqsa, which may be a usage of that name for the whole compound. Maybe. The important part of what I quoted from Marmardji is on page 222:

ويدخل من الباب المذكور وينزل بخمس درج إلى الأروقة المذكورة. ومن باب جامع النساء على مضي سبعة وعشرين ذراعا من جهة الشرق، الباب الغربي من أبواب الجامع المسمى ا لآن بالمسجد ا لأقصى.

("From the door of al-Jami an-Nisa, at a distance of 27 cubits in the easterly direction, is the western door of the Jami now called al-Masjid al-Aqsa.) The use of "Jami" here is very clear. I don't want to analyse it too much without being a scholar of medieval Arabic, but the "now called" which Marmardji uses in his translation is really there. Is it a hint that Umari considers this not the original name?

I also noticed "Haram esh-Sharif" in these pages as a name for the compound, more than once. An example is on page 217. I didn't think that name was in use until later. Zero^talk 11:56, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

This really is very interesting. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:58, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Ibn Batutah

Ibn Batûtah, ca.1347, from Marmardji p244 : "Toute la mosquée n’est qu’un espace sans toit, sauf al-Masjid al-’Aqsâ qui est couvert, construit d’une manière fort solide, avec une rare habi­ leté; il est verni d’or et de couleurs brillantes." Zero^talk 13:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

In his travelogue know as The Rihla, Ibn Batutah wrote

ذكرالمسجد المقدس وهومن المساجد الكبيبة الرايقع الغايقة للحسن يقال انه ليس على وجه الارى مسجد آكيرمغء وان طوله مى شرق الى غرب سبعماية وثنتان وخمسون دراعا بالذراع الماكلية وعرضه من الفية الى للجوفي اربعماية ذراع وخمس وثلاثون ذراعا وله ابواب كثيرة ق جهاته الثلاح واتما لجهة القبلية منه فلا اعم بها إلا بابا واحدا وهوالذى يدخد منه الامام ولماجد له فصاء غيرمسقد الا المسجد الأقصى فهومسقغ غى النهاية من إحكام العمل ودقان الصنعة موه بالذهب والاصبغة الرايقة ون ألمسجد موافمع سواه مسقفة،

He describes the compound as a vast and wonderful mosque (masjid), which is not covered except for the part called al-Masjid al-Aqsa. I checked multiple English and French translations, including the English translation of Gibb here and the French translation of Defrémery and Sanguinetti here, which includes the Arabic text. The Arabic uses "المسجد الأقصى" (al-Masjid al-Aqsa) which is split between pages 121 and 122 in the latter source. In all readings, Ibn Battuta identifies al-Masjid al-Aqsa as a part of the compound and not its whole. Note that Ibn Battuta (like many others) may have partly copied from earlier writers; the details are unknowable. Zero^talk 14:26, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Sahin ad-Dahiri

Sâhîn ad-Ḑâhirî, ca.1467, from Marmardi p244-245 : "A Jérusalem, il y a une plate-forme sur la terrasse du Roc, d’où l’on voit la forteresse d'al-Karak qui est à distance de quatre jours de marche. On fait, dans la mosquée de Bayt al-Maqdis, avec ses appels à la prière, quatre services de prières, selon les quatre rites. On commence selon le rite de l’Imam Mâlik dans la mosquée des Magâribah, puis dans Al-Masjid al-Aqsâ, selon le rite de l’Imam Muhammad ben Adrîs As-Sâfi'î; ensuite, dans la coupole du Roc, selon le rite de l'Imâm Abu Hanîfah; puis, sous la coupole de Moïse et la galerie occi­ dentale, selon le rite d’al-Imâm Ahmad al-Hanbali." Zero^talk 13:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Hard to get a clean scan, probably errors:

وبالقدس الشريغ مصطبة على سطح المخرة يرى منها قلعة اللرك وى مسيرة اربعة اثام وبصلى بمسجد بيت المقدس-ن اذن اربع صلوات على المذاهب الاربعة اول ما يهدأ بمذهب الامام مالك بجامع المغاربة ثم بالمسجد الاقصى على مذهب الامام د بن ادريس الشافق ثم بقتة العخرة على مذهب الامام الأعظم ابى حفيغة ثم بقبة موسى والرواق الغرن على مذهب الاسام اجد بن حنبد ولهذا لحرم اوقاف كثيروخدام ومباشرون اخنصرت ذكرهم خشية الاطالة

Here he uses "بالمسجد الاقصى" (at al-Masjid al-Aqsa).

Evliya Çelebi

The Turkish text of relevant parts of Seyahatnâme (1670s) is here and here. The latter is a modern critical edition which notes that the original manuscript of this volume is lost so the text had to be reconstructed from three manuscripts known to have been copied from the original. The observation that Çelebi uses "Masjid Aqsa" to refer to the southern building is proved by his frequent use of "Sahratullah’ı ve Mescid-i Aksayı" (the Dome of the Rock and Masjid Aqsa). As for the whole compound, I found "Mesci̇di̇ Aksa avlusu" (Masjid Aqsa court) and "Mescid-i Aksâ‘nın haremi" (Madjid Aqsa haram) but there might be others. Zero^talk 13:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

General remarks

Sorry for the delayed response on this.

I meant to thank you for providing these. Thank you.

I need to find the time to look into each one. The only way to be sure is to read the underlying Arabic.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Al-Aqsa Mosque compound

I have taken the long overdue step of creating an Al-Aqsa Mosque compound page to encompass the full architectural history of Al-Aqsa all in one place. This was not done previously, with there being separate articles for the Dome of the Rock, Al-Aqsa Mosque and Minarets of the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, etc., but no single page drawing them all together historically and architecturally. The temple mount page provides some architectural overview, but it is so bound up in narrating the full history of the site and is substructure (so much so that it uses the 'mountain' infobox template, not the 'religious building' one) that it has never done full credit to the actual superstructure. Now there is a page that ties it all together. @Al Ameer son: A shout out to you, as the one responsible for much of the material on the page (some copied). In a previous move discussion here, it came to light that when the page was originally created that some details also got tangled up between the congregational prayer hall that is the focus of this page and the wider compound. With the new page, the two are now properly disambiguated. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

In the same vein I have simplified the title of the compound page to its commonname. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:44, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The claim that it is the commonname has not been established. Note also that WP:COMMONNAME tells us to use the common English name, so even if was true that Al-Aqsa is the common name of the compound in Arabic that would be worth noting but not relevant to the title. Zero^talk 10:57, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Given the overlapping terminology, I would put this one down more to a matter of natural disambiguation, per WP:NCDAB, then to common name, per se. There are plenty of alt names. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:10, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: Sorry I don't understand. Using "al-Aqsa" for just one of its two common meanings is the opposite of disambiguation. "Al-Aqsa compound" or "Al-Aqsa Mosque compound", your first choice, is disambiguation. I think your choice of names was good and it should go back. Zero^talk 11:34, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Well I thought I was playing it safe, yes. However, I do also think that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of "Al-Aqsa" is unambiguously the whole compound, rather than just the prayer hall. We have this clearly stated in scholarship from as early as the 15th century, and confirmed in modern scholarship. It also appears, abridged, in titular form in other scholarly instances, such as here, where it is presented as equivalent to the whole space. Given the present-day ambiguity of "Al-Aqsa Mosque", but the seemingly ongoing acceptance that "Al-Aqsa" alone is short for the whole space, I don't see a major problem in falling back on this as the title. Are there sources that use "Al-Aqsa" alone in the narrow sense of just the prayer hall? Iskandar323 (talk) 11:55, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

The ambiguity of "Al-Aqsa Mosque" is not "present day" but at least 1000 years old. "Al-Aqsa" by itself in modern discourse is usually intended as an abbreviated form of "Al-Aqsa Mosque". Of course it is also true that it can be used for the compound, and probably that usage is increasing. The source you give is about a political decision, not really a historical one. It quotes Mujir ad-Din's opinion, but it doesn't quote his admission that his opinion was contrary to the popular opinion of his day, as I showed above on this page. Zero^talk 15:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

probably that usage is increasing Seems to be. Haaretz says

"The clashing sides don’t even agree on what to call this holy place. Hebrew-speakers usually refer to the mosque as Al-Aqsa, while Palestinians call it Al-Qibli. This difference highlights the gap between Israeli and Palestinian perceptions of the Temple Mount. The difference in nomenclature is significant. Over the last decades, the Palestinian outlook has been that the entire compound is a mosque, and is called Al-Aqsa." Selfstudier (talk) 16:29, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Area

There is something wrong with the description of the mosque's size in section "Architecture". It says 5 ha; that would be 100x500 m but the states length & width are much smaller. 2A02:3030:810:7EB5:6478:226C:C345:7C79 (talk) 07:57, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

To be precise, 5 ha equals 50'000 m2. The stated length & width result in approximately 4000 m2, less than 10%. The Azhar mosque has 15'000 m2 and holds 4 times as many worshippers. 2A02:3030:810:7EB5:6478:226C:C345:7C79 (talk) 08:02, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Right, the stated size is only 0.46 hectares or 1.15 acres. I used the dimensions in feet given in the source, which is not a great source but is close to what I measured on a map so it can't be far off. I changed it. Zero^talk 14:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

The 2022 PASSIA guide gives slightly smaller dimensions: 80m by 55m. Zero^talk 14:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 October 2023

Conflicts

Further information: 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis and 2022 Al-Aqsa clashes

Apply to change to->

Conflicts

Further information: 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis, 2022 Al-Aqsa clashes, and 2023 Al-Aqsa clashes

Cbls1911 (talk) 11:57, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done NotAGenious (talk) 14:34, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

the page needs a more specific name

The current name is confusing for people who have never heard of this place, or heard about it mostly from a non-western perspective. Because, according to most people with strong feelings about a place they call "Al-Aqsa mosque" (those being the people most likely to speak or write about the a place they call Al-Aqsa mosque) this is only part of Al-Aqsa mosque. So if somebody who has no knowledge of this complex hears a news story about "Al-Aqsa mosque", them finding this article will often be telling them about the wrong building.

I can add heaps of examples if you don't believe me about common usage?

The introduction currently does a fairly good job of explaining it, but adding some words like "controversial" or "disputed" could explain to that hypothetical reader why that news story seemed to be about a completely different building.

I think the page probably needs to be moved to avoid confusion, but I only found out this week that some people think "Al-Aqsa mosque" is only this part of it, so I'm still a bit unclear on what a better page title would be.

Also … if the other thing is not a mosque what IS it? (and I mean currently use, not in future or in the distant past.) I don't think a prayer hall by itself is a mosque? A mosque is bigger? The prayer hall at my university (an entire converted 3-bedroom house, not small) was never called a "mosque" just a "prayer room", but that distinction could be administrative rather than architectural.

Irtapil (talk) 12:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Irtapil: we have been working on fixing this, on and off, for a couple of years now. I agree that there remains room for improvement. Have you read the article Al-Aqsa? Onceinawhile (talk) 14:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

It's a good question about the Dome of the Rock. Certainly it is not currently used as a mosque, but that's not a complete answer. The fact that it has a mihrab (usually given as one of the characteristics of a mosque) complicates the question. Zero^talk 03:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)