Talk:30 December 2023 Belgorod shelling

"2023 Belgorod incident" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 2023 Belgorod incident has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 31 § 2023 Belgorod incident until a consensus is reached. HappyWith (talk) 04:53, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Might not be following all formal rules (which Wikipedia also says may be ignored) about russia's ideas

These edits of me that were removed by Borgenland might not be following all formal rules on Wikipedia (which Wikipedia also says may be ignored) but I do think that they expose russia's obsession with Ukrainian nationalism and thus gives a reader a deeper inside into the conflict then a dry explanation of what happened in Kharkiv yesterday. I think that that is more learnfull for the average reader on English Wikipedia than the article its current form. One can argue that there are other Wikipedia articles where one can read about russian ideas and motivations and obsession about the current war, but I doubt that the average reader would go to these articles after reading this Wikipedia article. (I hope I am wrong about this but people seem to never have a long attention spell for these kind of long searching of what is really going on, hinting at these issues in other Wikipedia articles is a service to those people who have an attention spell shorter then a flashlight). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 14:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I do thank Borgenland for his useful edits to the article (obviously I do not agree with all his edits on the article). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 14:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

It’s just that the source you cited just doesn’t mention Belgorod at all and your edit summary (“I think”) sounds a bit like OR. Anyways, I checked the link again and found that it was Putin’s speech last year. See the date again. Borgenland (talk) 14:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

As for the description of the attack on Kharkiv, the passages were a bit lengthy so I tried to make it concise without gutting what was in the Russian mind without making it sound like the article was parroting the Kremlin ad verbatim. Borgenland (talk) 14:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I made a footnote about this specific calling Right Sector "nationalistic group" which I think is remarkable. As far as I know all of Right Sector operational power has become the 67th Mechanized Brigade. "Right Sector" seems to be a non-existent organisation as of December 2023, non-existent things are also not a "nationalistic group"... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:33, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I just integrated the note into the text to make it more visible. Borgenland (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

— Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Anyway I found the right link to this year’s Putin speech. Feel free to include it. And my apologies if I sounded rather hawkish in addressing the reverts. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-new-year-address-makes-only-passing-reference-ukraine-2023-12-31/Borgenland (talk) 15:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

You are right about putin's new year's speech. Sorry about that. I saw a russian language news article (on the russian pro-opposition Meduza website) and went searching for an English language version of it but did not see that the one I found was one of last year. This year putin does not seem to mention the current war.... It looks like the speech could have been given on 1 January 2020. It still does not mention the Belgorod attacks/deaths which I think is odd... but not remarkable enough to include in this Wikipedia article I think. This Wikipedia article is not for showing the WP:OR that putin is not a very empathetic man (although most Wikipedia readers already think so about him I assume... Sorry I messed up on this and thanks for the correct link above. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I do not think you were "hawkish in addressing the reverts". With these on-line collaborations you can not see the other ones face or intentions, so misunderstandings can happen. Also misunderstandings can happen between 2 people being in the same room.... I do think that we made a better Wikipedia article of this Wikipedia article together — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

My phrasing of English sentences is a bit odd today for a reason I do not know... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Perpetrators Russia (claimed by Ukraine) Ukraine (claimed by Russia)

Its pretty obvious it was Ukraine as a response to the missile strikes Russia conducted on Ukraine, I don't understand why people aren't objective and turning it into a he said she said thing. When there are attacks in Ukraine and Russians in their information warfare claim it was Ukraine, people don't acquiesce to them, but for some reason the same rationale doesn't apply, I get some people want to support one side or the other, and want to right things in ways that best helps their side, but it loses objectivity. Midgetman433 (talk) 20:27, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

This is why: 2023 Belgorod accidental bombing. Until we have more precise information on what happened I think this is a fair situation. Ukraine does not have a record of targeting civilians unlike Russia so I think it is perfectly understandable to temporarily give it the benefit of the doubt. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

After looking at sources, I am no longer certain what it was: a shelling using a conventional artillery, Grad-like weapons or something else. Different named and unnamed officials are saying different things. Neither I saw any lists of victims with names. The claims by Russian MoD and officials are notoriously unreliable. This all should be treated with caution. My very best wishes (talk) 18:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

While it's true that we cannot know it with 100% certainty atm, we should follow RS, and quite a few of them say that it was a Ukrainian attack without any qualifications, while none, to the best of my knowledge, claims that it was a Russian one

• NYT The attack seemed to be Ukraine’s response, The back-to-back assaults underscored how both Moscow and Kyiv remain willing to escalate a war
• CNBC: which itself followed a Ukrainian air attack on Belgorod that killed 22 people earlier in the day

The article should reflect the position of the sources. Alaexis_¿question? 20:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I did see some serious websites (not as major as the NYT) calling it plainly a Ukrainian attack. Yes, the article should reflect what sources say. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:15, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course it was a Ukrainian attack. I am just not sure how exactly they conducted it, and who was hit, after reading these sources. For example, NBC says, specifically about the Belgorod: "More than 100 people were wounded in Saturday's strike on Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said... A man died and four other people were wounded when a missile struck a private home in the Belgorod region late Friday" What kind of missile? From something like Grad? What is the name of that man? My very best wishes (talk) 01:25, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Russia Admits To Accidentally Bombing Its Own Village. Goes to show things haven't improved since the April 2023 Belgorod bombing. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Both incidents You're referring to resulted in no deaths (if You have a source stating otherwise I would be eager to see it). And on December 30 two dozen Belgorod residents were killed. Doesn't quite fit the pattern, does it? Gorgedweller (talk) 11:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

There shouldn't be any pattern in accidental incidents. If there was it wouldn't be an accident. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Do we really have to go over this? There is a slight difference between accidentally losing a single projectile mid-air and "accidentally" conducting a barrage with dozens of rockets over a prolonged period of time. The former one can hardly cause as much damage as the latter. Seriously, even Ukrainian Wikipedia clearly says that Ukraine is behind the attack and they are the last ones who will be engaged in Russian whitewashing.

Title "Belgorod shelling"

Hello could you move the page "30 December, Belgorod shelling" in belgorod shelling.Wolfise (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)Wolfise