Talk:2024 United States presidential election/Archive 8

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Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archive 8

Kennedy in infobox

Latest comment: 23 days ago115 comments47 people in discussion

I do not believe that Kennedy should be featured in the infobox. He does not have substantial support in the way Trump or Biden do. Is there rules for this? (Aricmfergie (talk) 22:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Personally I Support him being in the infobox, due to him polling above 5%, which is WP:5%. He is also gaining ballot access very quickly, and now has it in 7-8 states. Lukt64 (talk) 22:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Yep. WP:5% rule should be the end of the discussion. This has already been addressed in previous RFC's. As NYMag notes: The general election is now projected to be a three-way race between Biden, Trump, and their mutual, Kennedy, with a cluster of less popular third-party candidates filling out the constellation.. Editors who say that the infobox inclusion requires a substantive (which I'm assuming is 20% or more) chance of winning are violating the rule.

Considering previous consensus, precedent, and the present polling, this shouldn't even be a controversy. The guideline's are clear. KlayCax (talk) 22:49, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Undoubtedly Support.

People have used any argument they could to keep him off the infobox, but suddenly now without Trump or Biden getting their conventional nominations, or without requiring the pledge delegate threshold, suddenly it's that far out of the question to include a guy that's polled at Ross Perot levels? Definitely violation of the five-percent rule and Neutral Point of View to be saying that Kennedy shouldn't be up there.

There was no consensus before putting Biden and Trump up there, despite the flagrantly premature decision to do so, but it's premature to put him RFK Jr up there? What gives? Borifjiufchu (talk) 01:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I Oppose as the 5% rule only applies to actual results. Not just potential polling numbers. The 5% rule comes into play from the national threshold needed to get matching funds for party presidential campaigns, but even within our guidelines, it would not need to apply until actual results came in, as has been seen in every other page with election results present in the United States. Tipsyfishing (talk) 03:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tipsyfishing Support: The 5% rule as clearly defined in text doesn't specify rather if it is for election results or all. By default, it seems to refer to all.

I don't think we should do what SCOTUS constantly likes doing which is make up or use outside sources and say a law means something else when the law says nothing on it, which is lazy. 2600:100B:B13E:D56B:68C7:7A6:67CD:755 (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

If it were to just who get to be on the infobox by the actual results, then why put any candidate's name on the infobox until results come in on Election Day (when they are published by polling stations and news outlets)? We don't even know if Trump or Biden will still be the candidates come election day, they're just merely presumptive. And if the counter-argument is "well obviously they'll get more than 5%", then you have to look at polls to do so, which we are doing for Kennedy. Therefore I Support RFK being in the infobox 2600:1700:3A40:4800:68BD:F98A:5791:775F (talk) 03:43, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

If that’s what it truly means why aren’t you taking down Jorge Álvarez Máynez from the Mexican presidential info box? His election isn’t in 3 months and he’s polling numbers far bellow RFK here.

frankly, keeping RFK off the United States presidential infobox is only furthering biased reporting that’s trying to down play his campaign’s credibility. AfricanAlGore (talk) 08:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC) — AfricanAlGore (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Support he meets the polling requirements the guy may be a nut which is why people don’t want to put him up there but the rules don’t care about our opinions he meets the wiki requirements to be up there 2600:8801:1187:7F00:25D3:B97C:DDCA:F27C (talk) 05:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I Oppose Kennedy's inclusion in the infobox, as well as the descriptors in the opening paragraphs characterizing him as a major 3rd party candidate and the first since Ross Perot--too early to make such a claim. He may be a serious contender, but that is yet to be seen, him polling in the high single digits well before July/August conventions does not warrant treating him this way. For the moment, the race should be treated as a two-way rematch between Biden and Trump until we have more evidence that Kennedy can continue to remain relevant and pull significant support--especially after Biden and Trump are confirmed as their parties' nominees. If, even after that, Kennedy is polling at 10% or more (aggregated), then I think he would be worth mentioning. JUBJUBBB (talk) 06:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I Oppose bringing RFK Jr. into infobox. I suggest waiting until July to see if his average poll numbers can get above 10. Vuvietanh6204 (talk) 11:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed. (Provided that Biden and Trump are additionally excluded.) There was never a consensus to include anything in the infobox for the time being. KlayCax (talk) 12:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I Support because the 5% rule is clearly applicable here and he was considered a serious contender in the dem primary. Notwithstanding, He has already received serious and significant media coverage, way more than Johnson got in 2016 Cannolorosa (talk) 15:30, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I strongly support Kennedy to be included in the infobox. Lostfan333 (talk) 03:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Aricmfergie I think it's about time we put this as an official vote. 170.10.51.116 (talk) 04:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Aricmfergie RFC has went with 1a, 6 was not in the official consensus, he goes in Infobox now Buildershed (talk) 17:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Support Kennedy is well past the 5% needed to be on the infobox in almost every poll that has ever featured him, although I do think that a different photo of him should be used in the infobx CY223 (talk) 05:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I've deleted Kennedy from the infobox, until a consensus is reached to include him. GoodDay (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Kennedy consistently polls at 5%+. I don't expect him to win the election (or even a state) but that's not the criteria of inclusion. WP:5% rule is clear here. 1980 United States presidential election, 1992 United States presidential election, 1996 presidential election, and others all show candidates who received 5% of the vote. It's widely expected that Kennedy Jr. will obtain this. I haven't seen an argument against inclusion that doesn't go against precedent and previous RFC's.

He should be included, as @Lukt64: mentions. It would be a violation of WP: NPOV (and an instance of WP: CRYSTAL and WP: OR to do otherwise). KlayCax (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

My major concern here, is that there's no edit-warring over this. BTW - If it's decided to include Kennedy? Please adjust the images (downsize from 200px to 160px), so that they don't make the infobox too wide & thus squash the written intro into the left side of the page. The 1992 & 1996 prez election pages, are a good guide. GoodDay (talk) 22:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

That works with me. KlayCax (talk) 22:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose there is no such thing as a 5% rule. That is the name given to an information page that attempts to summarize prior discussions the subject, and generalize conclusions that do not appear in the discussions themselves. Wikipedia does not have rules; we have policies and and guidelines and this is neither. In any case, most prior discussions concerning a 5% threshold for inclusion in the were about election vote totals, not polling numbers. Those that do concern polling are about exclusion, not inclusion, of those candidates with ballot access. For example, Jo Jorgensen had ballot access, but some wanted to exclude her due to polling numbers. A larger issue is those discussions (like this one) concern very specific contemporary scenarios such that editors are commenting on the specific race and not the 5% principle more generally. There has never been a consensus on including a candidate without ballot access polling above 5%. And frankly, because the scenarios are so different, forcing a phony rule on the proceedings is unnecessary. It makes sense to evaluate each event separately. GreatCaesarsGhost 02:33, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support Kennedy in infobox, as he is a significant candidate. For now, his chance of winning is vanishingly small, but that isn't the point. He has more support than any independent since 1992 and is likely to change the outcome in some states, perhaps even the national result. Moonraker (talk) 05:09, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose 5% does not apply to polling. Gary Johnson in 2016 had a few polls that hit 10%, but was never included on the infobox. Ballot access is irrelevant as well. Kennedy's ballot access in 7-8 states is nothing compared to historical Libertarian access (typically all 50 states). If Kennedy is included in the debate or something similar, then there is a real case to include him in the infobox. Currently, there is none. Burger1018 (talk) 05:14, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

But getting above ten per cent in the opinion polls makes Kennedy a significant candidate, and there is a big problem with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. For consistency, the most relevant WP precedents to look at are the infoboxes of the previous elections in 1912, 1924, 1948, 1980, 1992, and 1996. Going against all precedent gives an impression of partisan bias. Moonraker (talk) 05:33, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Those elections has third party candidates that obtained more then 5% in the actual, final results, hence why those were included.

I'm all for 5% being the benchmark when it comes to actual, final election results. But not when it comes to polling. Tipsyfishing (talk) 06:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

We include "systematic opposition" candidates in Russian presidential elections that get 3-8% of the vote, are widely regarded as kooky, and absolutely have no chance of winning. It's inconsistent and goes against precedent if we exclude Kennedy Jr. but include them. There's no good argument against exclusion. CrackTheJack (talk) 10:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC) — CrackTheJack (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

As the users you've responded to have emphasized, though, that's about actual election results, not polls. We don't know what % of the vote RFK Jr will get. There's not even a lot of high quality polling data yet--you could make a stronger case for RFK in the infobox if he's polling at 10%+ in June or July when more Americans are paying attention and more polls are being done/aggregated. Right now, it feels super premature.

Arguably, isn't their inclusion in Russia's case quite different? They have sham elections, Putin has no real opposition (unlike Biden and Trump) so documenting the silly, sham candidates that are put up against Putin is important context? I'm not sure why we would use the same standard for entirely different electoral systems and levels of institutional legitimacy. JUBJUBBB (talk) 10:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

That's right.

And unlike the Russian candidates, Kennedy Jr. has a chance of actually competing, unlike Vladislav Davankov or Nikolay Kharitonov We don't know what percentage of the vote any candidate in this race will get.

The sources agree that Kennedy Jr. will likely get over 10% of the vote. New York Magazine labels him a major candidate. He routinely polls in the mid-20s. Only listing two candidates (and then hypothetically waiting until November) isn't neutral. It's tilting the scales to include Biden and Trump while excluding Kennedy Jr. CrackTheJack (talk) 10:45, 7 March 2024 (UTC) — CrackTheJack (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I agree he *could be* a major candidate, and I agree editors should not wait until November if he continues to poll significant support. But the singular NYMag article calling him a major candidate doesn't feel very convincing to me (nor the idea we can know 8 months in advance he'll get 10%), is major candidate a technical term? What does it mean? Do other outlets call him thus and continue to? I also do not put much stock in current polling--of which there is not a lot and even less of great quality. But more of the electorate will be tuned in and there will be more relevant polling 3+ months from now, but still before the election. JUBJUBBB (talk) 11:09, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

For our purposes? It's 5% in the general. The evidence is overwhelming that Kennedy Jr. will obtain that. He's listed as such by multiple citations, and even pollsters skeptical of his campaign's vitality believe he'll almost certainly obtain it. We wouldn't exclude Ross Perot in 1992 or 1996 from the infobox at this stage. The same should apply to Kennedy Jr. Only including two candidates gives an implicit bias of its own. The majority here is right. He deserves to be included in the infobox.

It's a double standard to include members of the Russian "systematic opposition" while excluding Kennedy Jr. If we adopt the same standard for Russian elections, then we should simply exclude anyone other than Putin, as Kennedy Jr. has an infinitely higher chance of becoming president than any of them.

Either we're consistent and exclude every candidate until the nominating convention or we include Trump, Biden, or Kennedy, anything else in my view gives a significant bias, as other editors have already expounded upon. CrackTheJack (talk) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC) — CrackTheJack (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

He does not "routinely polls in the mid-20s". RCP has him maxxing out at 22, and only hitting that 16% of the time. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Those candidates that you listed have actual election results though. Not just polling. I'm pretty sure everyone here is in agreement that any candidate that actually gets 5% of the vote would be included in the infobox. I'm in favor of that too, that's what we currently do with election results. However, polling is not election results.

Rags saying that he "might" get 10% of the vote doesn't mean anything.

If Kennedy gets on enough state ballots to reach 270 in the electoral college, then we can re-discuss. Till then, I will stay opposed. Tipsyfishing (talk) 20:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

@Moonraker Tbh, WP:FALSEBALANCE should be more limited in its appliance to political articles as it can result in accidental bias caused by our selected "Reliable Sources" 2600:100B:B13E:D56B:68C7:7A6:67CD:755 (talk) 19:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support: Why is Kennedy excluded from the infobox if he's being called a major candidate in multiple sources? Even wacky Russian candidates with no chance of winning are displayed before the Russian presidential "election" results are "announced. Yet, Kennedy Jr., who is consistently polling in the double digits, is getting removed by certain editors. What gives?

I don't like the guy but like others here I immediately noticed the bias. If we replaced "Kennedy Jr." with "Perot" in 1996... Would editors still exclude him? Seems much of the opposition is based on him being a kook rather than the data. CrackTheJack (talk) 09:56, 7 March 2024 (UTC) — CrackTheJack (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

WP did not exist during the '96 campaign, so we cannot speculate about how we would have treated Perot at a similar time in the campaign. That said, Perot received 19% of the vote in the previous presidential election, where RFK has not. No one is arguing that Kennedy should never be added to the Infobox, only that he be held to a similar standard as the others shown there. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

@Prcc27:'s proposal to exclude the infobox until either 1.) A majority of delegates are obtained for both 2.) The convention floor is the best course of action. @CrackTheJack: and @Moonraker: have expressed similar sentiments.

The essay of WP:NOTNP is apt here. Can someone revert every name from the infobox for the time being? There was no consensus to add it KlayCax (talk) 12:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Putting these two debates together makes sense: delay B/T as long as reasonable, and we can punt the RFK discussion to a point where we will have a greater sense of his credibility. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's do that, @GreatCaesarsGhost:. It would save editors hundreds of hours debating whether "Kennedy should be in the infobox" and whether "Trump and Biden are the nominees yet".

We all know it's coming otherwise. I was initially in favor of including Trump, Biden, and Kennedy in the infobox, but after the debate on here, the opinion I leaned towards reversed. It's still too early in my view.

If Kennedy Jr. however remains at current polling levels: I agree he should be included in the infobox. But let's punt that question for a few months. KlayCax (talk) 13:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the article you linked calls him a "major candidate." The closest is this section: "At this point, all that’s clear is that no one has any idea what will happen between now and November 2024 or how to respond to the threat Kennedy poses to the Biden-Trump binary. As it is, Kennedy is in some cases polling not far behind either likely major-party nominee and in all cases polling well enough that, were the election held today, his presence in the race would define what the next chapter of American history looks like." That's very tentative. It recognizes that at this stage we have no way of knowing anything. What we should be looking for is articles that are about the election generally talking about him as if he's a factor, rather than articles about him. --Jfhutson (talk) 18:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

he has been polling above 10% for months.. Lukt64 (talk) 14:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose as others have pointed out 5% only applies to results. I think RFK should be added to the infobox in one of two scenarios: he garners over 5% in the actual results in November or he is treated as a major candidate by: a clear consensus of sources treating him as such, invited to the major national debates, etc. Yeoutie (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

There's already enough of a consensus of sources treating him as major third-party contender that could even qualify for debates. We are lenient with other countries when it comes to candidates consistently hitting 10%+, but suddenly because it's an American election and you see a lot of reactionary behavior towards a third-party candidate, you get a lot of biases thrown around to exclude him.

Why should what one source say what is a major candidate be a major stepping stone anyways? That's heavily subjective. There is enough raw numbers and data as is, and precedent in certainly more than one country for what qualifies other candidates for infoboxes. Seems to be the American-bias in articles speaking more so than actual Wikipedia precedent and policy when it comes to people that Oppose him. But this goalposting in opposition is nothing short of, well, unfortunately baffling. Borifjiufchu (talk) 20:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose until we know what his ballot access looks like. Then I have no problem if his polling is still strong. --Woko Sapien (talk) 16:02, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support with caveat regarding existing consensus. I believe there is already consensus on this issue that candidates should be included if they poll over 5% and have ballot access in sufficient states to win 270 electoral votes. Naturally, the nominees of both parties have automatic ballot access in sufficient states. However, my understanding is that RFK Jr. does not have sufficient ballot access yet because a number of states require a vice presidential running mate to be granted access. With that in mind, we should reconsider whether Donald Trump will be added to the infobox upon his declaration as presumptive nominee by the Republican National Committee, or whether he must also choose a running mate and thereby gain ballot access to be added. -A-M-B-1996- (talk) 16:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support now that Trump has been added despite my outstanding questions regarding his ballot access. -A-M-B-1996- (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose It's a moot point until he secures ballot access in enough states to actually win the presidency, after which a polling threshold is sufficient to determine his inclusion in the infobox. 67.170.42.135 (talk) 19:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has had write-in candidates for many state elections, but ballot access is now a threshold? That part I don't get. There were a lot of candidates that had specific regional support or didn't have sufficient ballot access or nationwide representation, but still get represented in parliamentary or congressional elections. This sort of line of thinking is what Ballotpedia has, but it's not something that's consistent with Wikipedia. Borifjiufchu (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

That's all well and good but even counting states where he's eligible as a registered write-in that only brings him up to 122 delegates. We're not at a point where he can yet reach 270 and actually win. 67.170.42.135 (talk) 22:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support The Evidence speaks for itself. 24.189.38.39 (talk) 01:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

That isn't to say he doesn't post relevancy and ignored what I said. 5% rule and relevancy are likely to be in order, although even when he does inevitably cross eligibility for 270 (like any third-party candidate polling above 3% typically has), people will find yet another goalpost to make-up. He has the percent, and sources to back him up as a relevant candidate, which is what matters most - in consistency with other nation's elections, which are applied far more lenient standards than what you see here in U.S. election infoboxes. Borifjiufchu (talk) 05:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - Until he has ballot access in 50 states & if he's still at or above 5% in the polls. GoodDay (talk) 15:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
So, by this logic, Biden will have to be removed from the infobox if he ends up not being excluded from the ballot in Alabama and Ohio. There have been a number of times a major candidate has been excluded from a states ballot, for example in 1948, Harry Truman was completely excluded from the ballot in Alabama and won the presidency that year anyway. Being on the ballot in all 50 states has never been a threshold for inclusion in the infobox, and is entirely irrational and ridiculous.XavierGreen (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally I support, however i believe that as a matter of compromise we should wait until he gains ballot access that gives him the ability to get 270 electoral votesCompromise — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cannolorosa (talk • contribs) 15:34, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Support: Clearly meets the criteria. He's polling at 15%. American exceptionalist arguments from editors don't hold water. HickTheStick (talk) 10:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC) — HickTheStick (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Support Would be prejudice against Kennedy Jr. if he was not included. Echoing what others have stated. He's a major candidate. Roadtruck (talk) 12:52, 11 March 2024 (UTC) — Roadtruck (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

By my count, that now makes three new SPAs created to support Kennedy in this discussion, all with bold accusations and claims. WP:NEWBIES are welcome, but this tone is a little suspicious. GreatCaesarsGhost 19:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Why are we attacking the person? They brought up their own points. That's like if I were to go around attacking people because of blatantly pro-Democrat influences on their profile/talk page, then going towards their social media page, and finding out the amount of parroted stuff from the media that makes its way onto here without much independent thought or understanding in Wiki-historicism and precedent (remember the Gary Johnson debate?). I'm not advocating people to do that, but that is something you will easily find on the background of other users if one is to play the superficial context game of ad hominem 'kill the messenger', in which case, why shouldn't we be talking about the 'message'?

So again, what relevance does this have? Because in that case we can use that logic to say we should be suspicious of people that have been here long enough yet continue to indulge in echochambers and faux populi sentiments to deny candidates on rather systematic overtures of "American exceptionalism" when discussing sensitive elections. As you may be able to note that there are people here using the talk page to express their like/dislikeness for candidates. Borifjiufchu (talk) 03:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

We expect editors to contribute to improving the project, not advocate for their personal politics. The consensus has held that RFK has not yet demonstrated the relevancy to be added to the infobox. That we now see the opposing argument gaining significant support from IPs and and accounts created specifically for this discussion is clearly suggestive of sockpuppetry. KlayCax has made edits to the article citing support of these socks as rationale, and that is a mistake that needs to be avoided. It is difficult to recognize SOCK when it supports your own position, but it is incumbent upon a good wikipedian to do so. GreatCaesarsGhost 14:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I assume that falls on the jurisprudence of Wikipedia. But I am more skeptical of people that advocate for personal politics and let their biases get in the way, I would ignore these sockpuppets either way when it comes to any argument, as again, proper moderation would have the means to filter and deal out with such accounts, as they seem to work on both sides and lower the common denomination of the discussion - which seems better worth ignoring. Which is the habit that I follow - as indulging in them isn't generally worth the average user's time nor responsibility. Borifjiufchu (talk) 19:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Wait, until he gets more ballot access. At his current polling numbers, it's really not a question that Kennedy should be included. However, he isn't going to get 5% of the vote if he's only on the ballot in 8 states (which he's only at now). Once he reaches 25 states, or if the Libertarian party nominates him which has been speculated, I think this discussion can be reopened. Esolo5002 (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Really silly way to shut down a conversation, we already know the Libertarian party shut down this stuff if you were paying attention to the news, and that most of it was just speculatory media indulgence.

Then you go on to assume 'however he isn't going to get 5% of the vote if he's only in the ballot' which are two major leaps in assumptions. Then you say he needs ballot access, in which case, if we look at that track record you have the Constitution Party and multiple Nader candidacies. When in any other country this polling would be equivalent to act as a third way alignment in contrast to major parties (pre-coalition). And then more goalposting, and saying the conversation isn't worth talking about until they fulfill your criteria. Borifjiufchu (talk) 03:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment: This may have to go to a RFC. It's presently 55-45%/60-40% in favor of Kennedy, but a mere numerical majority isn't how the process works, and editors on both sides have given good arguments. There's no present consensus for either removing or including him in the infobox. We're going to have to take a (temporary: which could change) side in the next day or two. I personally favor inclusion, however. KlayCax (talk) 02:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose If he gets on the ballot in enough states to win 270 electoral votes, then maybe I would see the argument. 3rd party candidates always poll higher than they actually perform. CoryJosh (talk) 03:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

1.) Because of the electoral college, that's not how the United States presidential elections work. Even a candidate with 50 electoral college votes can have immense influence. (This was Strom Thurmond's goal as a Dixiecrat in 1948)

2.) Third party candidates do not usually perform anywhere near this well. Kennedy's polling around 1992 Perot numbers.

3.) Kennedy Jr. doesn't have to win to merit inclusion in the infobox. He just has to get 5%. He's polling that way and WP: RS's are unanimous in stating that he will likely get it. KlayCax (talk) 03:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding a bit snobbish... come on, he's not a real candidate. Gary Johnson polled at around 15%, and he (rightfully) was not included. CoryJosh (talk) 03:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

People said the same thing about Donald Trump in 2016. Look what happened. Gary Johnson never averaged anywhere near where Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is. KlayCax (talk) 03:41, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

He actually was included, various times, and up until the end of the election. So you're quite wrong there. Not only that, but his numbers were more around the 10% ballpark. Not 15%. John Anderson got around 15-20% and ended up with 7% in the end, but did he have an influence? Considering the massive polling errors (both in 1980 and 2016) that ended up benefitting the Republican, it is definitely fair to assume they had significant relevance both times, and did have an impact on the election. So even with that logic, you get someone that's more akin to John Anderson and not, say, Ross Perot, you are still getting a precedent for relevance. But saying 'he isnt' a real candidate' is far too subjective, and can be used to dismiss hundreds of other candidates in infoboxes all across Wikipedia. Borifjiufchu (talk) 03:43, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I mean he’s in poll aggregates at over 10% still, I think that’s something to not really sweep under the rug. I think he should be included, but maybe wait until Summer and if he’s still polling well, maybe add them then XboxGamer2002! (talk) 03:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)— XboxGamer2002! (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I think that's a good benchmark. We had many third party candidates in the 2016 infobox around that time, eventually including McMullin, however as they failed to reach more than 5%, they never ended up staying on the infobox. Borifjiufchu (talk) 03:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

i support. he's outpolling Biden in several states. it would be really really unfair to exclude him. all the major news networks are talking about him. JohnX92 (talk) 03:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC) — JohnX92 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Agreed, I would’ve thought he would’ve fallen further by know, but he’s doing well still XboxGamer2002! (talk) 03:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)— XboxGamer2002! (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Exactly, and keeping him off the infobox to me feels like trying to hide his campaign, considering he's polling very well. Lostfan333 (talk) 03:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, I’d add him for now, but I don’t know if he’s decline substantially, he’s polling very strong for a third party candidate 8 months out. So it’s probably better to see if he’s still polling at least high single didgets by summer. I think he’s gonna play an interesting role here XboxGamer2002! (talk) 03:55, 13 March 2024 (UTC)— XboxGamer2002! (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I might also add depending on what polls out there he’s polling at like 15 on some, like that’s something that’s not been seen since Perot, he’s definitely getting more chatter lately I’ve noticed in the media too XboxGamer2002! (talk) 04:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)— XboxGamer2002! (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Oppose for all the reasons I've opposed including him before. He's an unserious third party candidate like the others. I'm not sure that I believe that Aaron Rodgers and Jesse Ventura top his VP list, but I don't not believe it either. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- And I have concern with single-purpose accounts in this thread. The possible sockpuppetry and/or meatpuppetry on the supporting side of this argument needs to be taken into consideration. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  Kennedy polling in the 20s in numerous states is unserious?? Wow, okay. Keep your opinions to yourself. Lostfan333 (talk) 04:13, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  A serious campaign would have ballot access to 270. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  The ballot process is ongoing so keep your opinions to yourself. Lostfan333 (talk) 04:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  I can call this out as the publicity stunt that it is in a discussion about how we editors should consider the campaign. A poll in the 20s in March doesn't mean it's serious. You don't have to reply to me when I do. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:25, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  Wow Lostfan333 (talk) 04:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  
  You haven't done your research on the Constitution, Libertarian, or Reform parties if you think ballot access is the sole metric, nor are you aware of how people write-in candidates that get over 10% in races, or even win in the case of Murkowski if name recognition is high enough.
  
  Instead of looking for 'hey what's a serious candidate or not, oh god he has Ventura on his VP list according to some speculatory article', one should indulge in proper precedent more and look towards other info at the state and international level for how one measures and anticipates "seriousness". So far polling from many different organizations is a pretty reliable indicator all things considered (even if they get half of that, it still holds better weight than getting .5% with ballot access). Borifjiufchu (talk) 10:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
  Perhaps you should read about how polling this early is not predictive of results. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
  You know I'm a frequenter of 538 - and it pertains to a 2 person race. If you've seen my other replies, I've mentioned many other examples far beyond what that article even begins to touch upon. John Anderson polled in the 15 to 20% range in '80 election, and ended up with 6-7% of the vote, but undeniably had a major effect on the election. RFK Jr trumps Johnson's numbers during any point in the 2016 race.
  
  In-fact 538 has gone on to defend many polls as being pretty accurate, as a normal margin of error around the last quarter of the election season is typically 4%. Most people don't want Wikipedia to have anything pertaining to bias by having just Trump/Biden, and not a guy that has polling that would put him well above the 5% for qualifying for infoboxes and nearly dancing with qualifying for a debate.
  
  Not only that, but in that article, there is no examples of any elections post 1992 (when hyper-informed cycles and electorates became a significant norm) where there was any 10 point difference in major candidates when it came to polls in the early year vs the election results. I highly doubt editors would keep a Perot or Anderson off, and only try to have Reagan Carter, or Bush Clinton in the infoboxes when we had Gary Johnson in mid-2016. Borifjiufchu (talk) 12:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  Ross Perot lead Bush and Clinton at certain points in 1992. Anderson looked like a joke for much of the summer. Speculating how we would have treated them with contemporary knowledge is a fool's errand. GreatCaesarsGhost 14:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  "looked like a joke for much of the summer", you mean garnering 20% polling averages?
  
  Even aside from that, polling in the 3rd millennia hasn't been as variable as one may claim or suppose. Considering the bar for recognition, the shock and rebound factor for name recognition to dissipation has leaned towards inelasticity when you count national polls for various sources (and consider the fact modern polling and news cycle isn't as centralized or few and far between as the past).
  
  And were any other candidates jumping both of the candidates in polling, or hitting 20% averages? Your points just cement the fact that it would be of the reader's interest, and consistent intrigue that they hold historical relevance, rather than a 'joke' or 'fool's errand', so I am not quite convinced here. Borifjiufchu (talk) 15:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Oppose only if sources treat him as a serious candidate. Right now he is being treated just like Johnson or Stein in 2016. Yeoutie (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- That is not true at all. Kennedy has way way more media coverage than Johnson or Stein, is outspending them both by an order of magnitude and has polling that bounces regularly between 10 and 20% nationally. Stein never had more than 2 percent national polling, and Johnson's polling was never as high either. Kennedy's situation is much more akin to Ross Perot than anyone else at the present time.XavierGreen (talk) 19:21, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  Strong support in favor of including Kennedy.
  - Posting from mobile, so apologies for any strange formatting.
    
    I am reposting this comment from another thread on this subject, which I replied to mistakenly believing it was this one:
    
    RFK Jr. is, beyond a doubt, a relevant national candidate and will very likely affect the election, according to literally *all* available polling data and news reports. He is polling at over 15% and has been covered by every major news agency — not just after the announcement of his campaign, but repeatedly and at-length. A quick google search of “RFK JR.” will result in dozens of articles popping up — many of them published within the last *day*, from outlets such as the New York Times, ABC, MSNBC, etc.
    
    In the face of this, this entire “irrelevancy” argument several editors keep harking on is, frankly, a bit bizarre. The only
    
    conclusion I can draw is that the reason some would seem to keep perpetuating this idea is because they don’t appreciate Kennedy’s extremist ideology, and desire to, in a sense, “consign him to irrelevancy” because they believe promoting such ideas is harmful.
    
    Which would be reasonable, if it were not for the fact that this irrelevancy argument is, in fact, wholly illusionary, as I have laid out above. This seems like patent WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT.
    
    P.S.:
    
    Here are several arguments I have seen against this notion, and why I think they are invalid:
    
    1. “Third Party Candidates poll higher prior to general elections, and rarely meet expectations”:
    
    This argument fails to recognize the fact that, quite simply, the level of support these candidates achieved — such as Stein, Johnson, etc. - never came close to reaching that of Kennedy’s. That’d seem to indicate a far stronger base of support. He has also remained remarkably consistent over the course of many, many months, hovering around 10-20% and never dipping below 5%. And every poll his numbers continue to remain stable - or even improve — makes me find it increasingly harder to believe that he will simply “fizzle out” as some claim.
    
    To bring this point home: Kennedy’s numbers have never dipped below Johnson’s *best performance* in 2016.
    
    2. “Kennedy is a crank, and should therefore be excluded”
    
    This argument is entirely invalid. A candidates beliefs should not exclude their inclusion in the infobox if they meet the proper criteria.
    
    I do not know why several editors keep citing WP:FRINGE as evidence to the contrary. The page clearly states that “a Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is.” However, we have repeatedly acknowledged conspiracy theories/theorists who reach Wikipedia’s notability standards — which Kennedy certainly does, as I’ve argued at length — while clearly demonstrating these beliefs are not based in reality, a la Alex Jones. Half of the Republican party would seem to be shifting towards these very notions. Should we exclude these (certainly) notable candidates on the basis of their odd beliefs, or acknowledge them and make it clear how they are false? Gambitenthusiast99 (talk) 20:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  Well Put. Gambitenthusiast99. InterDoesWiki (talk) 01:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
  Also Support basically for your reasons above, unless there's a huge polling dip for Kennedy sometime soon he should be added now Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 03:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Wait: Ballot petitioning is still ongoing. As it stands, even including write-ins. Mr. Kennedy only has access to 137 electoral votes. That number drops to 71 if you include only states in which he will appear on the ballot. Until Mr. Kennedy obtains access to 270 electoral votes (a majority) I agree to keep him off the infobox. When he does obtain access to the majority of electoral votes. At that time I do not see a reasonable argument to oppose addition outside of personal bias. ThisUserIsTaken (talk) 02:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Reliable sources consistently state the race is a two-way between Biden and Trump, with Kennedy as an outlier in the same vein as Jill Stein or other third-party bids in years past. Kennedy has not even been able to get on the ballot in all states. As Wikipedians, we should go off of what reliable sources state the race is, not our own personal determinations of who is a major/minor candidate. BootsED (talk) 11:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Name one state where Kennedy has been excluded from the ballot. The deadline to apply for ballot access has not yet passed in the vast majority of states.XavierGreen (talk) 15:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Relying on sources to parrot subjective information on their interpretation of a competitive race by jumping to conclusions in contrary to polls, and wikipedia precedent is a horrible standard to abide by. You say you shouldn't go by personal determinations, yet that is the very definition of 'personal determinations'. Look at the 2016 election and see how they handled third party candidates during the middle of that year - all I gotta say.

And like other people said he has not been excluded. Borifjiufchu (talk) 05:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

'Support I support Kennedy being in the infobox, he is a third party candidate and has been gaining traction as of late. If it was another person who is unknown, is not news worthy or has not been in the news, then I would support not including that person but I believe Kennedy (regardless of one's politics) should be included in the infobox. Jurisdicta (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Survey proposal

We had a similar argument in November about whether we should add Kennedy to the infobox and we have clearly not gotten any more. We obviously need to come to some sort of consensus not only whether we should include Kennedy but when we should include Kennedy (or any similar third party candidate). I've come up with some options for citeria, but am very open to other criteria.

1: A consistent polling criteria (generally this has been assumed to +5%)
2: Some sort of ballot access criteria (reaching ballot access is enough states to win the presidency, 25+ states, etc.)
3: Reaching a Presidential Debate
4: Media coverage that treats Kennedy as a serious threat to affect the election.

Personally, I think we should have a mixture of 1 and 2. Someone who has consistently polled over 5% against major candidates, and has ballot access in a majority of states could reasonably effect the election. Whether or not he wins or even could win is irrelevent in my mind because all it takes is neither major candidate getting a majority of electoral college votes for Kennedy to have had a serious effect on the election. Esolo5002 (talk) 05:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Lostfan333 (talk) 05:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I think as long as a candidate meets 2 of those 4 criteria, said candidate should be included . Cannolorosa (talk) 20:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that we definitely need some kind of blend of these qualifications. I think that the 270 ballot access criteria (2) should be the most important, with the candidate then having to poll above 5% to qualify (1). So, if a candidate polls above 5%, but does not have ballot access in enough states to amount to 270 votes, they do not qualify. That way, we exclude the litany of smaller parties that have wide ballot access but no mainstream impact. Maybe also an inclusion of a stipulation that if a candidate is polling ahead in a state but fails the first two, then they can also qualify? I'm mainly writing this with Evan McMullin in mind, as a win in Utah would have meant he would have won electoral votes and have been in the 2016 election's wikibox.

I feel like options 3 and 4 are more subjective and definitely more difficult. Presidential debates are notoriously difficult for third parties to get into, and require their own polling threshold (15%). Doing so would just switch the 5% criteria to a much more stringent 15%, which excludes notable campaigns like Ross Perot's 1996 run. Media coverage is also a tricky thing to measure objectively, and I feel like any candidate that passes the first 2 criteria outlined above will already be in the limelight. We saw extensive coverage of Gary Johnson and Jill Stein in 2016, though those two campaigns never amounted to much, so anyone that polls higher should be equally as written about. QuailWatts (talk) 18:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

the ballot access proposal should be some sort of benchmark(ie take the number of EVs a candidate has balllot access to and compare it to the EVs a candidate can not get ballot access to due to failure to meet ballot filling deadlines. The candidate can be included in infobox if he/she has ballot access to more EV than he/she cant get) Cannolorosa (talk) 18:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

WP: Fringe rules it out His beliefs go against mainstream science. Duneatlas (talk) 07:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

that is not relevant here Cannolorosa (talk) 19:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

1 & 4 are probably the most important but I can also go with 2. InterDoesWiki (talk) 23:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

1)5% is the threshold for votes, polling would need to be higher. 2)Necessary, but not enough. Libertarian will be on the ballot in all states but not in the infobox. 3) Fine, but too high a standard. He is almost certain to be excluded. 4) Candidates who actually did swing the election are not there in 2000 and 2016. I would suggest name on ballot (not write-in) in 25 states or 270 votes AND polling at 10%. GreatCaesarsGhost 14:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Whether or not a candidate reaches a presidential debate is an entirely irrelevant factor. It is entirely possible that Donald Trump will not participate in debates set up by the commission on presidential debates or alternatively could choose to debate against third party candidates simply to afford media attention to them.XavierGreen (talk) 22:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Collorizador (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Support. John Anderson got 6.6% of the vote and is in the infobox for the 1980 United States presidential election. RFK is at least as notable as Anderson was in that election, if nor more so. Don't let your opinion of his political beliefs bias you here, Wikipedia articles have no opinion. Fryedk (talk) 12:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

His beliefs are completely irrelevant to whether or not he should be included in the infobox. If there were an American Nazi Party candidate who got over 5%, they would still be included in the infobox. AmericanBaath (talk) 11:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Support - Kennedy is polling above 5%. Any candidate that polls above 5% or has access to 270 electoral college votes should be included.XavierGreen (talk) 15:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Support, He is clearly above the 5% threshold, as shown by a plethora of polling. So... what needs to happen to actually get him into the infobox? Does some need of final vote need to happen or what? Chipka (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
You're going to get a narrative about how he needs to qualify for polling, and then you're going to get some other interpretations based on total lack of precedent and goalposting before people will even begin to give him the same credence as they would towards literally any other election - look at how we handle other countries and determine candidates of interest. It's a uniquely American perspective, and people are turning towards echo-chamber and bubble behaviors to intercede thought on what a relevant candidate is. Wikipedia should make that determination, not a bunch of op-ed perspectives that people keep on parroting. Borifjiufchu (talk) 05:26, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbcom

Due to the importance of this article and the fact that we have been going in circles on this and will probably continue to do so, would it be best to sumbit a request to wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests Cannolorosa (talk) 22:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Arbcom doesn't settle content disputes. GoodDay (talk) 02:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

RFC: In states where he has ballot access, should Kennedy Jr. be in the infobox of states without polling?

Latest comment: 27 days ago20 comments13 people in discussion

There is currently an edit dispute on whether Kennedy Jr. should appear in the infobox of states that will likely not receive polling in the 2024 presidential election or have not been polled yet.

Option #1: Kennedy Jr. should appear in the infobox of every state he has ballot access in.

Option #2: If the aggregate state polling shows Kennedy Jr. under >5% or >10% (whatever is determined by the RFC): then he shouldn't be included. If no polling has been done or he is above 5-10%, then he should be included.

Option #3: Kennedy Jr. should not appear in the infobox if polling of the state has not been performed.

Thanks! :) KlayCax (talk) 02:15, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

#3 - We should wait until after the November election, to see if Kennedy (assuming he still in the race) gets at least 5% of a state popular vote. GoodDay (talk) 02:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
That seems unfair, then why include anyone? PeacockShah (talk) 20:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Do we really need an RFC for this? Prcc27 (talk) 02:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, @Prcc27:. Because editors are going to keep reverting it back and forth if we don't. KlayCax (talk) 02:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

“Editors” meaning you? The consensus is already clear without the RfC, and the RfC is only going to reaffirm what was decided, this is a waste of time. Prcc27 (talk) 05:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

My simple opinion is this;

What’s the point of adding him now? Let’s be honest here, everyone knows of RFK Jr. now. He’s a Kennedy, people have seen him on TikTok, the Super Bowl. Wait till he gets the votes, THEN add him. I expect him to get 8%, which is an impressive demographic to be honest. IEditPolitics (talk) 16:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

That would be even more reason to add him now.. If the media is treating him like a serious candidate now, and he has ballot access to a state, why would we exclude him until after the election? An infobox is supposed to be a snapshot of the election, and if RFKJR is going to have a significant impact on the election, he should be included. We should probably wait until he polls consistently at 5%-10% in states though. Prcc27 (talk) 22:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. I agree with what you have said. Lostfan333 (talk) 02:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

#1 it would be unfair if he has access to them yet can't be on the infobox. InterDoesWiki (talk) 13:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

There are usually around 10 people that have ballot access. We will not add them all to the infobox, so we need some additional factor for those that we do add. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's again clarify (because there has been confusion on this point) that ballot access means name on the ballot. Write-in access is a different thing. As to the question, I pick none of the above. If Kennedy has ballot access in a state that is not polled, he should be included on that state if he has met the standard for the national infobox. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The state is polled, he just wasn’t included in it. Prcc27 (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

(For Utah that is; I know this RfC is for all the states in general). Prcc27 (talk) 14:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@KlayCax option #1 commie (talk) 12:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

#1 Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:09, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Option #1:, every entrant on the ballot should be listed.--Ortizesp (talk) 12:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

So if 20+ people are on the ballot, we should include all 20+ people in the infobox? Prcc27 (talk) 21:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Option 3: don't include him without any polling of the state. Including all candidates on the ballot without polling would be unworkable. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Option 3: If we include Kennedy in these situations, what is stopping other minor candidates from being added too? Yeoutie (talk) 21:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Option 2 Seems the most reasonable

Trivia

Latest comment: 15 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

We mention that if elected, Trump would become only the second person to serve non-consecutive terms as president. However, what about if Biden is elected? The latter would be only the second person to be elected vice president 'twice' & president 'twice'. Should we mention the latter trivia? I think also, for the first time in US history, both major candidates will be running for president for the last time (per the 22nd amendment), if elected. GoodDay (talk) 14:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, if there are reliable sources to back it up. Although not sure if trivia belongs in the lead; wondering if we should remove the Grover Cleveland stuff from the lead. Prcc27 (talk) 18:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Standard for adding candidate to the infobox (part...3?)

Latest comment: 14 days ago43 comments20 people in discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closed alongside above RFC. See #RFC: What should the criteria of inclusion be for the infobox? (Question 1) for the full summary. Soni (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Shall we adopt the following standard:

"A candidate shall be added to the infobox when they have achieved ballot access (i.e. name on ballot) in states holding 270 electoral votes while holding a polling average of 5% or greater in 3 of the 4 major aggregators: 538, RealClearPolitics, The Hill, and Race to the White House. Once added under this criteria, the candidate shall not be removed unless their average drops below 3% in 3 of the 4 named aggregators."

This is obviously a response to the RFC above, where it is difficult to read any consensus due to there being so many options. I have attempted to find a space that is fairly close to the consensus expressed there while also being specific enough to be enforceable. I want to be clear that this is a compromise position: it may not be exactly what you would choose, but it does offers something tangible to address the concerns of all sides. Please refrain from offering tweaks or edits so we can get a clean read on this proposal (though you can say what you don't like about it if you are opposed). GreatCaesarsGhost 12:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Support as nominator. I prefer the 10% standard, but can agree to 5% with the understanding that it has to stay at 5%. The 3% gives us an out here. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. I think the polling average should have to stay at at least 10%+, considering how unreliable they are at predicting the eventual result. At this stage in 1980 polls were predicting a landslide for Carter, and the same in 1988 for Dukakis. It's far too early and there's every chance his numbers that are already dropping will have fizzled out before November, not forgetting that he's currently nowhere near the criteria for ballot access. GhulamIslam (talk) 12:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. Whether or not a candidate should be included in the infobox should not solely be based on polling, which is notably inconsistent and unreliable, but also based on whether or not RS state that candidates are "major" or not. The majority of RS refer to Kennedy as a minor, although notable, third-party candidate. Kennedy also only has ballot access in a handful of states, so calling him a "major" candidate to be included in the infobox appears premature. BootsED (talk) 12:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Support. Polling is the best we have, if it was completely unreliable peopl wouldn't conduct it. That's why you use polling aggregators, so that the impact of outliers get muted. It's a quantitative, data driven figure. Deciding on someone being "major" or not is subjective. GeorgeMisty (talk) 13:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not decide who is or is not a major candidate. Wikipedia merely states what reliable sources on the topic state. If a majority of reliable sources start to say that Kennedy is a major candidate then the argument for including Kennedy in the infobox is much stronger than it is currently. Currently, reliable sources do not refer to Kennedy as a major candidate in the 2024 election. To ignore the consensus of reliable sources stating that Kennedy is not a major candidate, but to use polling to assert that he is would be original research. The only thing polls can tell us is what he is polling at. The article currently addresses this by stating that "Robert F. Kennedy Jr. emerged as the highest-polling third-party presidential candidate since Ross Perot." However, to make the assertion that he is a major candidate deserving to be included in the infobox would be original research as such a claim is not supported by the majority of reliable sources. BootsED (talk) 13:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
In the context of US elections, the word major literally means Democrat and Republican. A third party candidate definitionally cannot be a major candidate. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Would you remove John Anderson from the 1980 election info box then? 2600:1009:B063:F87:650A:DB51:AD7B:F8CB (talk) 17:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

That is not true at all. There are "third parties" that have major party status in various states. Having major party status often entitles a party to have publicly funded primaries, while minor parties under many states' laws are not entitle to have such primaries. For example, the Libertarian Party is legally a major party in the State of Massachusetts with equal standing to the Democratic and Republican parties and is entitled to have a primary. [1] By your definition, User:GreatCaesarsGhost, the Libertarian party candidate would automatically have their candidate in the infobox, since they are a recognized as a major party under united states law.XavierGreen (talk) 17:40, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
My comment was a response to the prior comment, and it is necessary to read it in context. I'm arguing that expecting sources to refer to RFK as a "major candidate" is a bad standard because they probably never will use that word no matter how well he does. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I may actually support 3%, due to Cornel West. Lukt64 (talk) 17:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Leaning support. I do worry about polling because third party candidates tend to poll much better than they actually do. I would say 8% as the start and 5% as the drop might be better. Esolo5002 (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

~~Oppose~~:I support including write-in access in the 270 electoral college vote threshold, especially if it is a candidate that is polling relatively high (around 15% nationwide). The polling threshold should be 10% unless we can account for margin of error and/or ballot access, only then it should be 5%. I am not strongly against a 5% threshold though. I also think that a candidate should have to meet the polling threshold (whether that be 5% or 10%) and maintain it. If they fall below the polling threshold consistently for 2 weeks straight in at least 3 of 4 aggregates, they should be removed. They should only be re-added if they poll at the polling threshold (5% or 10%) for 2 weeks straight in at least 3 of 4 aggregates. I feel like that is a better solution to not going back and forth. Nevertheless, I agree that a candidate polling below 3% should be removed regardless. Prcc27 (talk) 20:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I am okay with the compromise, with the exception of when to remove/re-add candidates. I think what I proposed above is better. Prcc27 (talk) 04:34, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@GreatCaesarsGhost Support, let's end this fighting on here once and for all. Buildershed (talk) 23:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Nah. That standard should be "Is/was it an an actual three-way race by any reasonable stretch of the imagination"? 270 is just an attempt to put a GO/NOGO number there to save brainwork. But it's just arbitrary and doesn't work. Norman Thomas was on enough ballots to win; Strom Thurmond wasn't. The Prohibition Party used to get itself on ballots in most states IIRC. It doesn't mean much, and the reader won't even know that we're using that standard. And The Hill today has him at 8.4% and falling steadily. Do we keep putting in and taking out the picture as the polls fluctuate.

A picture is worth a thousand words, so putting in three pictures gives the visual signal that this is three-way race, particularly since an infobox is supposed to be for quick get-the-basic-facts scans. But it's not a three-way race. It's a two-way race, with a third guy messing around who is a conspiracy theorist who has never held any office and doesn't seem to have a coherent platform or much money doing a vanity project. He's not going to impact the election significantly. And visually implying otherwise is misleading the reader. Herostratus (talk) 05:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

5% is the threshold used by literally every Wikipedia page on elections for inclusion in the infobox, including all other presidential election pages (with the exception of getting electoral college votes). So why should this page be any different? The 5% standard is clearly reasonable, since it is what is already in use on every other page.XavierGreen (talk) 18:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"The 5% standard" is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, in any case, the threshold only applies to actual results, not inconsequential polling numbers. Reliable sources only mention him as a third party outlier in what is essentially a two-way race between Biden and Trump. Gary Johnson got on the ballot in all 50 states and polled over 10% but only got 3% of the actual vote. GhulamIslam (talk) 22:35, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The 5% standard is also relevant, because that is the level of support required for a party to win the right to be entitled to publican campaign financing in the next general election. FEC | Public funding of presidential elections XavierGreen (talk) 02:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, "we mislead the reader in a lot of places, so lets do it here too" doesn't win me over.

To be fair, Trump is also a conspiracy theorist who had never held any office. GhulamIslam (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose both of these standards are based on original research when that is not needed here. We have a plethora of reliable sources who declare who and who is not a major candidate. Yeoutie (talk) 15:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- Can you explain further? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeMisty (talk • contribs) 16:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- How is a threshold ballot access to 270 votes original research? That is the minimum someone must get to be elected by the electoral college. Without access to 270 votes, it is literally impossible to win.XavierGreen (talk) 18:54, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
  “Without access to 270 votes, it is literally impossible to win”. No, it is only impossible to win with less than 270+ EVs if there isn’t a contingent election.. Prcc27 (talk) 20:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
  Case in point, you have just proven that a 270 threshold is not "original research". I stated above that 270 "is the minimum someone must get to be elected by the electoral college". A contingent election is by house delegations, not the electoral college. My statement is thus still accurate.XavierGreen (talk) 00:05, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Mnmh, good point. Suppose RFK is only on the ballot in states that total 240 electoral votes. If he wins them all, he will very likely become president (by horsetrading with the party that doesn't control the House to get it to tell its electors to switch to him). That's not going to happen, but neither is him winning outright. Herostratus (talk) 04:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Support either at 5% or a modifies 10% mark. If and only if 270 is reached. RFK is at 10.7% currently in the realclearpolitics avg. We'll see if that continues, if it does and he gets to 270, it makes sense to add him. No original research involved, this is public data. Fryedk (talk) 20:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
too non mainstream. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1009:B023:4E97:C17A:6D85:8C51:CA24 (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Wait check this out: at List of third-party and independent performances in United States presidential elections#Notable performances we have made a list that someone here decided are notable third-party candidates. I see that all the people on this list all meet these criteria:

Won some states, or
Got 16% of the popular vote (let's make it 15%), or
Is a former president and got 10% of the popular vote (this gets Van Buren in).

This seems like a reasonable standard for "was an actually important candidate, so gets a picture". If we want to write something up I'd go for that. (A simple "won a state" criteria emerged at 1948 United States presidential election which I was involved in. Strom Thurmond won some states and got a picture, Henry Wallace didn't and didn't, even though Wallace got many votes as Thurmand and was just as important and notable in various other ways.

Bobby Kennedy is not going to win any states, is not going to get 15% of the vote, and is not Martin van Buren (I hope). I mean we can't know that for a stone fact, but we also can't know if Trump is going to win the Nobel Peace Prize, etc. But we do have the brains to figure out the chances are vanishingly small, so why pretend otherwise.

Really we should have a big well-advertised RfC about thi. Its ridiculous that John Anderson has a picture in 1980 United States presidential election. If we going to do that, we should also write "The 1980 American presidential campaign was a three-way race between Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, and John Anderson". But we don't do that cos it's not true. So the pictures and article text are telling different stories. That's bad. Herostratus (talk) 04:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If you bothered to read the actual List of third-party and independent performances in United States presidential elections#Notable performances page, you would see that the threshold for inclusion there is a mere 1% with a second section for those candidates who received 5% or more. So by your analysis, all candidates polling at 1% or higher should be included, since they qualify for inclusion at the aforementioned page.XavierGreen (talk) 04:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Anderson is moot, because there is a well established consensus that we will add someone who gets 5% of the vote. But this is about what we do pre-election. Everyone accepts that we add the D and R candidates, but we don't have an established reason for WHY, such that we could apply that to other candidates. Some people say we can't use polls, but what else is there? There could be a third party candidate leading in the polls who eventually wins who we do not add. Obviously RFK is not that candidate, but we do need some rationale that fits everyone to be neutral. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Herostratus, where on earth do you get your analysis based on the article? The article has tables that reference candidates above 1% and above 5%. GeorgeMisty (talk) 12:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Support. I have closely followed the discussion and this is a good compromise position, soundly reasoned. -A-M-B-1996- (talk) 17:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Please reference the Wikipedia 5 percent page to get an understanding of best pratice'. See here: Wikipedia:Five percent rule.

"Several RFCs have established that third party candidates must poll over 5% to be included in an infobox, unless only one candidate polls over 5%, in which case the second-place finisher may be included if determined appropriate by local consensus."

These debates have happened before for prior elections. And in those RFCs, it was deemed that 5% polling was sufficient. GeorgeMisty (talk) 13:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

As has already been mentioned, the RFCs collated on that misleadingly titled infopage are related to voting results, not pre-election polling. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

And that makes sense, Kennedy has not gained 5% of the vote yet, thus he should not be included in the infobox unless he does so. The standard I've seen for pages on upcoming elections, whether it be for state or federal elections, is to include candidates who got 5% or more of the vote in the previous election, and which have filed for a candidate in the upcoming election, which so far includes only the Dems and Reps. But an example of this includes 2024 Indiana gubernatorial election. In 2020, Donald Rainwater got around 10% of the vote in the election, so he's being included on the 2024 page, but will likely be removed if he does not get 5% or more of the vote this november. (This page, 2024 Puerto Rico gubernatorial election, is another example of this). Kennedy should only be included if he wins 5% of the vote, that has been the standard for recent elections now, and for several years now. It seems to me like people only want to change this because it's Kennedy. But that's just my two cents. Talthiel (talk) 19:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Support. It's good that the part about 270 electoral votes is needed. That will require polling to have some staying power. If the polls remain around 10% or so come late June, then despite any potential polling overestimations, the candidate is certainly likely to over the 5% final result that would be needed post election. Just my thought. MannyMammal (talk) 02:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Comment - What's the current inclusion criteria? These multiple discussions about basically the same topic, is getting confusing. GoodDay (talk) 16:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
We don’t really have an official inclusion criteria yet. But I think most users would support (or at the very least would be okay with) including a third party candidate that a) has ballot access (excluding write-in status) to 270+ electoral votes, and b) polls consistently at 10%+ (maybe even 5%+) nationwide. The 5%+ threshold already seems to be the de facto consensus for state infoboxes? Although, one could argue there is a valid reason for having a 5% threshold for state infoboxes and 10% threshold for the national infobox. My guess is RFKJR will be added once he has 270+ EVs ballot access and averages 5%+. Hope this answers your question. Anyone disagree with my analysis? Prcc27 (talk) 18:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Agree, there is no inclusion criteria. In my estimation, even the major party candidates are included more or less by acclaim rather than for any stated reason. Pro-RFK voices have argued that there should be a standard to add him so the goalposts don't get moved. We are trying to find that standard, but because there are lots of variables and opinions, it has been difficult. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Support For the reasons i said above, i would prefer the standard just be access to 270 electoral college votes, but would accept 5% as a comprimise.XavierGreen (talk) 23:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Support - No need for an American exceptionalist interpretation of the data. Consensus from the previous RFC was clear that 10% and 270+ electoral votes was good enough for the infobox. I'm okay with 5% as well. KlayCax (talk) 20:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFKJR Utah infobox?

Latest comment: 12 days ago27 comments7 people in discussion

It looks like RFKJR has been added to many state infoboxes in which he has ballot access. I am not against adding third party candidates to state infoboxes that consistently meet the polling threshold. But should we include a candidate if they were only included and met the threshold in 1 or a few polls? If we do, it could be risky, especially since some polls could be outliers. I think a candidate should have to at least be included in/meet the threshold in 5 state polls before being added to a state’s infobox. Consequently, I feel like he should be excluded from the Utah infobox for now. Prcc27 (talk) 15:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Exclude Kennedy, from the Utah's infobox-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Include, if he meets 5% he should be included.XavierGreen (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

If/when editors do add a third candidate. They should lower the image size in the infobox. That way, the infobox won't be too wide & thus wipe out the written intro. A reduction from 200px to 160px, will suffice. GoodDay (talk) 16:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Include, Checks all boxes for inclusion. InterDoesWiki (talk) 23:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Checks what boxes, exactly..? If we do not make consistent polling a requirement, we could end up adding, then removing, then re-adding candidates to the state infoboxes quite frequently. Including a candidate based on 1 poll that could be an outlier would be WP:UNDUE. Moreover, 1 bad poll in a state could also inadvertently lead to a minor third party candidate (even less prominent than RFKJR and Cornell West) being included in the infobox. Prcc27 (talk) 04:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright Prcc27, so a few things, 1. I'll give you the first one, I should've added a more specific reason. 2. You would be correct in everything else, but (mostly) none of it is correct for two specific reasons. This is a specific question to specifically answer Whether or not Kennedy is in the infobox of Utah, of which there are two sides, one in favor, one not in favor, the second is that if you can find more polls to put in, please do. But I do think consistent polling is much needed. InterDoesWiki (talk) 18:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Having one standard for RFKJR and another for other third party candidates would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Prcc27 (talk) 05:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I never said there was a single standard. InterDoesWiki (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well we certainly shouldn’t have a double standard. Prcc27 (talk) 19:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Didn't you just say "Having ibe atand for RFKJR and another for other third party candidates would be a violation of WP:NOV." That Is a Contradiction. InterDoesWiki (talk) 00:09, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

one standard

InterDoesWiki (talk) 00:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

? Prcc27 (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Exclude we have asked the question many different ways, and many folks have weighed in. The consensus of the community is clear that we don't add yet. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I've noticed that an editor had added Kennedy to a few of the state pages-in-question. I've reverted their additions based on lack of consensus for inclusion. That being said, I do wish if any editor adds a third candidate in the top line of an election infobox? They'd reduce the images from 200px to 160px, so the written intro won't be distorted. GoodDay (talk) 22:43, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Consistently polled states

I see RFKJR was removed from the California and Michigan infoboxes. For those states, I really don’t have strong feelings one way or the other if he is included, which is why I have not removed or re-added him. He has been consistently polling at 5%+ in those states, so if 5% is the threshold, he should be re-added, IMO. If 10% is the threshold, then he should be excluded. While 5% may not have a strong consensus, most users seem open to it as a compromise (even though some compromisers personally prefer a 10% threshold). Prcc27 (talk) 23:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Slight adjustment. I believe 150px (rather than 160px) is better, for when we've got three candidates in the infobox's top row. It gives the written intro more room. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe we should add to the state infobox when we add to the national. It will be difficult to objectively measure support in each state as polling will be much less frequent (California has one poll since February). With the national standard now so low due to the (incorrectly) decided RFC, Kennedy will almost certainly be added eventually. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
We should continue to add any candidate who is at 5% in the polls. The frequency of the polling does not matter.XavierGreen (talk) 14:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree. A candidate in the national infobox should not be in the state infobox if they are polling below 5% in a state (and vice versa). Evan McMullin is currently in the Utah 2016 infobox, so it is possible to qualify for a state infobox post-election while not meeting the threshold nationwide. We should do our best to do the same for the pre-election criteria. If you feel it is too soon to add RFKJR to California, I will not get mad at you if you revert my BOLD edit. I think 5 polls within the past 6 months is consistent enough, but if you disagree, maybe we could agree on a different threshold (maybe 5 polls within the last 3 months, etc.) Nevertheless, I think Kennedy should definitely remain in Michigan since that state is unquestionably consistently polled. As for the RfC close, if you want you can talk to the closer then possibly contest the closure? Sometimes consensus is about compromise. Yes, many users (including myself) had reservations about the 5% threshold. But most of us agree that it is important to have a pre-election criteria heading into the election, and that 5% isn’t too outlandish. Prcc27 (talk) 14:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
  - I think this was targeted at me, not XavierGreen? A) I'm not going to raise too much of a stink on the RFC, as it was roughly 50-50 and the closer ruled objectively. B) For the umpteenth time, we cannot use post-election standards for a pre-election decision, as polling /= vote count. C) I don't think we should be "boldly" doing something runs counter to so much discussion, especially as D) the RFC specifically said it would not apply to other pages. There is no consensus for the notion that ballot access plus 5% gets you on the state. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
    The consensus at the RfC for the national infobox seems to be use polling in lieu of actual results. So we should do the same for state infoboxes. I did not do anything counter to discussion, the poorly worded RfC on state infoboxes seems to mainly be concerned about what to do if a candidate has ballot access, but has not been polled. Not applicable to Kennedy in Michigan and maybe even California. We could open yet another RfC, but I think it seems more practical to just follow the lead of the national infobox criteria. Prcc27 (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, the RfC was explicitly for this page only, so it cannot be transferred to the states without discussion. Because the national consensus concerns polling averages, the reality of limited polling at the state lever changes the conversation considerably. The national race gets polled dozens of times every month, giving aggregation a smoothing effect. A state may be polled once a month or less (indeed, California has one poll in two and a half months) such that ordinary error makes the results unreliable at the low end. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we need some sort of amount of polls, say 3+, before he's added. But if Kennedy is certified on the ballot and is getting more than 5% in three plus polls I have no opposition to his inclusion in state infoboxes. I also agree that making the infoboxes smaller makes sense with three candidates. Esolo5002 (talk) 18:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

A lot of states aren't polled 3+ in an entire election cycle. Some are polled 100+. That doesn't work. KlayCax (talk) 03:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

If a state is polled less than 5 (or even 3) times, we should wait until after the election before adding RFKJR. We need *consistent* polling, that is a must. Prcc27 (talk) 06:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

This is why state level polling is a bad choice - you'll have him listed at some states and not others based on whether third party pollsters choose to poll a state, rather than any objective read on the state of the campaign. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2024

Latest comment: 11 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This edit request to 2024 United States presidential election has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

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I see that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has met the guidelines by consensus. I would like to see him added back into the infobox. He was recently removed from such and I would like him to be added back. Add the candidate back into the infobox, and it would be nice to see discussion in the talk page about which color to use. Purple was previously used, and I think Green or Gray are also acceptable, but I am not proposing that. Jayson (talk) 21:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done: There is no consensus to add him to the infobox. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Define the threshold in national polls to include candidates in the infobox - new proposal

Latest comment: 10 days ago22 comments8 people in discussion

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Procedural close, please refer to previous discussions on this page, e.g. RFC: What should the criteria of inclusion be for the infobox? (Question 1), Standard for adding candidate to the infobox (part...3?). Also, the RfC statement is not neutral. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Define the threshold in national polls to include candidates in the infobox

You must only choose one option.

A) 15%

B) 10%

C) 5%

I believe that a previous RfC that addressed the minimum number in national polls that candidates should have to be included in the infobox is ambiguous and don't provide a clear and solid consensus. Several of the users who participated in that RfC did not fully decide on 5% or 10%

I think the threshold in polls must be 15% nationwide, the same threshold that the Commission on Presidential Debates imposes on third party candidates in order for them to participate in debates. Third party candidates tend to be above 5% in the months leading up to the election and drop off as election day approaches. A very clear example was candidate Gary Johnson in 2016. In the months leading up to the election polls consistently showed him above 5%, there were even several polls that had him above 10%. However, Gary Johnson only received 3% of the nationwide vote. Esterau16 (talk) 05:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Procedural close: we literally just had an RfC on this. The consensus is 5%, and not likely to change. Prcc27 (talk) 06:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

B) 10% as that is what the prior consensus was actually for. Only half of the editors supported 5%, and that ain't consensus. Besides, 5% is basically within the margin of error for nothing. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If 10% was the prior consensus we need the original RfC to be reviewed and possibly get a new closure. We should not be doing a whole new RfC. I am going to ask for this RfC to be closed. Prcc27 (talk) 15:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If the prior RFC was closed with a good faith read of consensus, it can stand. But the community can now review this decision and say "no, that's not what we want" and tweak it. I don't see what the problem is with letting the community decide this. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Procedural close - RFC came to the consensus of 5%. This is gaming the system. KlayCax (talk) 13:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

And furthermore, Kennedy is polling at by far the highest level of an independent candidate (on average) in 30+ years, this isn't a "every 4 years" type of thing. KlayCax (talk) 13:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Procedural close/Uphold Previous Consensus - 3 Days Ago, everyone had finally come to a conclusion on the criteria for infobox, This RFC Is Unnecessary. InterDoesWiki (talk) 18:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not gaming the system. It is always appropriate to ask for a change to established consensus if it is reasonable to believe that consensus does not reflect the community's actual opinion. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No it is not ever appropriate. We have procedures for contesting an RfC closure. Starting the same RfC a few days later, is not how we go about things. Prcc27 (talk) 18:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, fine. How does that work? That RFC closure was completely incorrect. GreatCaesarsGhost 19:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@GreatCaesarsGhost: See WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Prcc27 (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

GreatCaesarsGhost, This seems like something YOU want rather than What EVERYONE/CONSENSUS wants. InterDoesWiki (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Also GreatCaesarsGhost, Your Claims ("With the national standard now so low due to the (incorrectly) decided RFC","If the prior RFC was closed with a good faith read of consensus, it can stand. But the community can now review this decision and say "no, that's not what we want" and tweak it. I don't see what the problem is with letting the community decide this," "That RFC closure was completely incorrect" - GreatCaesarsGhost) that the "RFC: What should be thr crieria of Inclusion be for the Infobox?" Is Incorrect is, ironically enough, Incorrect, about 60-75% went with 1a (5%) rather than 1b (10%) InterDoesWiki (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The 15% threshold is bogus, given the new news that Biden and Trump do not plan on participating in CPD debates. Prcc27 (talk) 15:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

¿Bogus? 15% in polls has always been the threshold imposes by the CPD, who has organized the United States presidential debates for more than 30 years. That now, Biden and Trump are not going to participate in the CPD debates, is another matter. And anyway, the confirmed debate between Biden and Trump for June 27, organized by CNN, imposes the same CPD threshold: 15% in polls. CNN: «To qualify for participation, candidates must fulfill the requirements outlined in Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States; file a Statement of Candidacy with the Federal Election Commission; a candidate’s name must appear on a sufficient number of state ballots to reach the 270 electoral vote threshold to win the presidency prior to the eligibility deadline; agree to accept the rules and format of the debate; and receive at least 15% in four separate national polls of registered or likely voters that meet CNN’s standards for reporting.»^[1] Esterau16 (talk) 16:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Strike the parenthetical from option A. You shouldn't editorialize in the options. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@GreatCaesarsGhost I did it. Esterau16 (talk) 18:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The two non-CPD debates have a polling criterion of 4 national polls with 15%, not polling averages like the CPD requires. Prcc27 (talk) 18:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Procedural close: This has been settled at 5%. -A-M-B-1996- (talk) 19:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Procedural Close The CPD threshold is meaningless, since the CPD is now effectively dead. The 5% threshold actually has legal meaning as it is the FEC public funding threshold. Additionally, this is all moot since the RFC adopted the 5% threshold.

Procedural Close - as we already had an RFC on this matter, mere weeks ago. GoodDay (talk) 20:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

References

^ https://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2024/05/15/cnn-to-host-2024-election-presidential-debate-between-president-joe-biden-and-former-president-donald-j-trump-on-june-27/

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Adding Kennedy to infobox

Latest comment: 9 days ago54 comments12 people in discussion

Hes got ballot access in California and Texas, and has the signatures for New York. He could theoretically get 269 electoral votes with a write-in campaign and winning every state he has ballot access in. He is polling at above 10%. There is no reason to not add him to the infobox, and if there is no real opposition by tomorrow then I will add him. Lukt64 (talk) 19:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I oppose relitigating this same argument again and again. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd recommend waiting until after the Democratic & Republican Conventions, to see where Kennedy is in the state-by-state polls. GoodDay (talk) 20:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That doesn't matter, the standard as adopted by the RFC says once he has access to 270 votes and 5% on a poll aggregator, he's in the infobox. Nothing else matters. He hasn't hit 270 yet, so he's not supposed to be on yet.XavierGreen (talk) 20:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

He has 270 now. So I added him. Prcc27 and other editors have been in favor of including write-ins.

200 electoral votes have been confirmed.
69 for write-in.
And Louisiana takes him from 269 to >270.

KlayCax (talk) 03:36, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think “petition awaiting certification” counts as ballot access. Either way, there is no consensus for using write-in access towards the threshold. Prcc27 (talk) 06:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no consensus against it either, @Prcc27:. You yourself stated that write-ins should count. KlayCax (talk) 13:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:ONUS is on inclusion, not exclusion, and I oppose considering write-in access . – Muboshgu (talk) 14:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I will note that I considered consensus in favour of "ballot access for 270+ EV" to explicitly exclude "write in access". The standard people established was 5% as well as ballot access, so adding electoral votes by another method would go against the 2nd bit.

Some people did explicitly support counting write-in access as ballot access, but it was too few. It wasn't mentioned in the final close because it's too long to write every minority preference as "There was consensus against X". There can be consensus against things without needing the summary to explicitly list them all. Soni (talk) 06:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Louisiana? What are you talking about? Prcc27 (talk) 07:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Louisiana doesn't require signatures. It just requires $500. KlayCax (talk) 13:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Haven't seen anything about Louisiana. Their petitioning window hasn't even opened yet... Longestview (talk) 08:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Louisiana doesn't require signatures. It just requires $500. KlayCax (talk) 13:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Either way, he can't get on until July. Longestview (talk) 13:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the third time you've added him in contradiction to established consensus here. This is bordering on bad faith. Please do not do so again. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

He has 270 electoral votes right now with write-ins, @GreatCaesarsGhost:. Even if you exclude Nevada for the time being. KlayCax (talk) 13:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Saying that he wont get 270 electoral votes in ballot access is absurd at this point. Lukt64 (talk) 12:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

This is not about what he will get, it's about what he has now. As far as I can tell, "Kennedy is officially on the ballot in five states: battleground Michigan, Utah, Hawaii, Delaware and California."[2] We will not consider the campaign's own claims as reliable. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:54, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

We do for the Trump and Biden campaigns, @GreatCaesarsGhost:. I adhor his views, but Kennedy's campaign operation has been surprisingly successful. KlayCax (talk) 13:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Trump and Biden have major party lines waiting for them with 50 state access. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

And RFK will be on the ballot in an aggregate total of states with >270 electoral votes. KlayCax (talk) 02:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I say that we should add him. He has met the criteria by consensus. The consensus says that a candidate with over 5% of the polling and with ballot access in states comprising 270+ of the Electoral College votes should be added. If you are wondering where I got that I got that on this very page where the discussion has been closed. The very top one, for example. -Jayson (talk) 17:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

He does not have ballot access to 270 EVs. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

According to the AP, he has only qualified for the ballot in CA, MI and UT, while there are eight other states he hasn't yet qualified for. [3] Maybe we should check our math on his ballot access. David O. Johnson (talk) 19:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

New Jersey is now added, getting him up to 283 Lukt64 (talk) 20:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Claiming that RFK Jr has ballot access to 283 is farcical. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

He has credible - that is, essentially ensured - petitions in states with 201 electoral votes (195 if you exclude Nevada.) With write-ins, it is 270 electoral votes, @Muboshgu:. KlayCax (talk) 02:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Petitions are never "essentially assured". They don't count until the SoS says he's on the ballot. Write-in access is worth nothing given the RfC consensus. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

We can't just say petitions are "essentially ensured". His petition was put in dispute in two states (Hawaii and Nevada) and he completely withdrew petitions from three states (Arizona, Georgia, and South Carolina). So I think that we should wait. Longestview (talk) 02:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't help that many news agencies can't really agree on how many states he's officially on the ballot on. Five from CNN on May 8, Three from The Hill on May 11, and Four from Politico on May 13. Wikipedia lists six. Longestview (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Longestview Ok guys, I can tell that we need consensus on which states he has access in. We need to see what states we count in this number Jayson (talk) 22:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The only viable requirement I can think of is official ballot listings or statements from secretaries of state or state boards of elections. I have no idea what these news agencies' various criteria are. Longestview (talk) 22:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Longestview I agree, but we gotta come up with something quick. Guys, come up with some ideas XD Jayson (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Would it count if its write in access? What if it is "petition awaiting certification"? Jayson (talk) 22:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Someone create an RFC!!! Jayson (talk) 22:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that we're not counting "petition awaiting certification" towards his electoral vote total, since those are EVs that the Kennedy campaign does not currently have. It would violate WP:CRYSTAL if we did include them. David O. Johnson (talk) 22:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@David O. Johnson Ok then. So what about write ins? Jayson (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

~~Looking at previous comments in the thread, it doesn't look like we've come to a consensus on whether write-ins should count.~~ Edit: Struck through my incorrect comment.

As it stands, Kennedy is pretty far from getting 270 EVs, even if write-ins are counted; he's certified for 93 EVs, while he has 60 write-in EVs, so that would only take him to 153.

Please see Third party and independent candidates for the 2024 United States presidential election#General election candidates for sources. David O. Johnson (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to think write-ins should count because those are votes he could get hence, he could (longshot, but could) win a state based on write-ins. There have been successful write-in votes in senate elections before (Liberman and Murkowski for example). However, I agree that we should have some establishment as what states we'd consider he's officially on the ballot for. Someone mentioned official statements from sec. of states, that's a good step in the right direction. The moment RFK Jr. hits 270 electoral votes (write-ins included) I think there's no argument as to exclude him from the infobox. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The RfC closer was clear that they should not count. I will note that I considered consensus in favour of "ballot access for 270+ EV" to explicitly exclude "write in access". The standard people established was 5% as well as ballot access, so adding electoral votes by another method would go against the 2nd bit. Some people did explicitly support counting write-in access as ballot access, but it was too few. It wasn't mentioned in the final close because it's too long to write every minority preference as "There was consensus against X". There can be consensus against things without needing the summary to explicitly list them all. [4] – Muboshgu (talk) 23:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu I think we all got good ideas. So, lets be clear about this: Once Robert F. Kennedy Jr has ballot access in states comprising up of 270 votes in the electoral college or more, and if he is still polling greater than 5% in the trusted national polls, then he should be in the infobox. Am I correct? Jayson (talk) 02:10, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jayson:. Official ballot certification in many states doesn't occur until a month before the election. Meaning that it serves as a de facto exclusion of RFK Jr. from the infobox for the vast majority of the campaign. "Credibly finishing petitioning for the ballot awaiting certification" is the only criteria that makes sense. (Once again, the goal posts are being moved to exclude him, despite the RFC being intended to be a definite resolution to the question.) Right now, Kennedy has 201 of those (195 without Nevada), and 69 write-in votes, which gives him presently 264-270 electoral votes that are essentially fait accompli.

What they're actually arguing is keeping Kennedy Jr. from the infobox entirely: which goes against the spirit of the RFC.

I'll hold off until 270 electoral votes — even excluding write-ins if need be — but then I'm adding. It's absolutely ridiculous how the goalposts are forever shifting. If we include Leonid Slutsky, Vladislav Davankov, and Nikolay Kharitonov in the 2024 Russian presidential election infobox — all of which were essentially puppet candidates for Putin — then we're including Kennedy Jr. There's no realistic argument for this double standard. (Outside of "he's crazy" or "I don't like his views". I don't either. Both facts are irrelevant.) It's once again a ridiculous instance of American exceptionalism on Wikipedia.

He's still polling >10% (and even rising outside of the YouGov polls) and will have 270 electoral votes. The Wikilawyering is getting old. KlayCax (talk) 02:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no "wikilawyering" here, you just don't like what other people are saying. I don't know where you're getting your EV access figures and including write-in access in someone's EV total is bogus, in my opinion. And the opinion of the RfC, as noted above. It's a two-party system and I object to adding any third party candidate until they get enough votes in the election to prove that their candidacy mattered more than the typical third party candidacy. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu Ok, trying to wrap my minor brain around this whole ordeal is crazy, but I am learning. So I assume that Mr Cax is including all the states where he received enough signatures, declined or accepted, or waiting approval. If what he says is true, then the "waiting for certification" thing is bogus anyway. Also, you might be alone in that you think he should only be included after the election. Most of the other Wikipedians who set their toes into this debate also agreed that he must gain enough in polling and enough ballot access. It is clear that he is running a strong and viable candidacy. Jayson (talk) 03:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jayson:, in summary, @Muboshgu: is arguing that RFK Jr. has to be officially certified by a state's election board before it counts for the infobox.

This article on ballot access in the 2024 United States presidential election excellently displays what I mean. I'm arguing that the blue checkmark — "indicates that the party or candidate has credibly finished petitioning for the ballot awaiting certification (that is, it is basically ensured that they'll be on the ballot) — should be the criteria used. He is arguing for the other criteria. I think both the green and blue-check marks listed should count. He thinks that only the green-check marks would. In reality, this ensures that Kennedy Jr. will never appear in the infobox until the very last moment, if at all, despite the fact that is guaranteed to be on the ballot in states with >270 electoral votes already. It's a neutralish-sounding way of ensuring a non-neutral outcome.

It is also ridiculous that Muboshgu is arguing that only parties with a "realistic chance" of winning should be displayed because the United States is a "two-party system". Singapore, South Africa, Venezuela, and Paraguay are all de facto one party states, yet their election articles all include parties with no realistic chance of winning. We don't exclude the Workers Party and Progress Singapore Party for the next Singaporean general election article, or the Economic Freedom Fighters for the 2024 South African general election article, and so on and so forth. As mentioned elsewhere: Wikipedia even includes a de jure communist and puppet candidate who got 4% of the vote in the 2024 Russian presidential election page. (And on similar articles.) His suggested criteria are absurd. It is a suggested American exceptionalist and hyperstrict standard for infobox inclusion that is quite found nowhere else on election articles on the website. KlayCax (talk) 04:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@KlayCax I agree with that. I will say that Muboshgu is a very devoted editor with a lot of experience in Wikipedia, even helping me make my first Wikipedia article. But, alas, his arguments simply do not hold up. They do not match international election page standards. I, however, am only at 402 edits on the English Wikipedia and cannot edit this article. So, continue saying what we believe in, as I will help, and remember, ignore all rules! Jayson (talk) 04:16, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I said ignore all rules as an Easter egg and not to incite vandalism and you putting him in the info box anyway. Jayson (talk) 04:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Whatever you think international election page standards are, they don't apply here when an RfC just recently closed with a result that you don't like. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know why I said that! Just ignore what I said nevermind Jayson (talk) 04:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Just so you know, about your last comment on the Russian election, it is general procedure to include the second-place candidate in an election infobox, even if they get below 5% of the vote. Longestview (talk) 04:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Each election page gets treated based on its own local consensuses. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu You guys have made fair points. Jayson (talk) 04:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu You guys have made fair points. Though I will say that, in the case of the last election in Singapore, there were 2 other candidates included even though they got like 11% of the vote. Both did. Each Jayson (talk) 04:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I have got to go to bed! It is 10:42 PM in my time zone, and I am glad that I have no school tomorrow! But, before I go, I propose to @KlayCax of another RFC, asking editors what should constitute ballot access. It should go something like this simple rendition:

a. If a candidate has gotten enough valid signatures to have a valid petition

b. If a candidate has been certified

c. If a candidate has gained future placement on the ballot or write in signatures

something like that, you go ahead and do that. Jayson (talk) 04:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@KlayCax, I agree. The consensus at the RFC at the very top of this page concluded that the editors there said they are ok with the guidelines proposed, which Bobby met. Unfortunately, I am not yet an extended confirmed user and thus cannot add him.

Grammar to be corrected

Latest comment: 8 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

"Take effect", not "take affect". Creatoreoccasionale (talk) 12:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Where? I'm not seeing either phrase in article. David O. Johnson (talk) 08:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

[1] ttps://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2024/05/15/cnn-to-host-2024-election-presidential-debate-between-president-joe-biden-and-former-president-donald-j-trump-on-june-27/

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