Wikipedia talk:Recent years

RFC: International notability - All sections

There is no consensus to implement this proposal.

Cunard (talk) 02:04, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I know there is another RFC still open but it does not seem to be going anywhere meaningful. I propose to replace the section "Inclusion and exclusion criteria" with the following:

• "Recent years pages are intended to provide an overview of events of international and lasting notability that occur during that year:
• In general, events meeting this criterion should recieve significant independent news reporting from at least three continents or should recieve coverage by multiple reliable sources as one of the most significant global events to have occured during that year. (For example in a year in review article in a major newspaper).
• Births or Deaths which recieve significant independent news reporting from three continents or recieve coverage by multiple reliable sources as one of the most important global events to have occured during that year are included in this criterion.
• Some categories of reccuring events often recieve significant international coverage but are still not usually of lasting notability. We have special additional rules to deal with these categories. If such events recieve coverage by multiple reliable sources as one of the most significant global events to have occured during that year this may be evidence that they are of unusual importance and should be included.

Then, we would retain the other sub-sections - with the exception of the three continent rule, births and deaths which would be subsumed above.

I think that this change would improve the balance of recent years articles. Dramatically reduce squabbling over dumb things and give a more balanced overall picture. There might be a lag with a few things until reliable sources start to round up a year but I think that is emmiently preferable to the current arbitrary standards which manage to be both too flexible (to allow random dead musicians and athletes who happen to be WP:BIAS beneficiaries) and too inflexible (not allowing election of Donald Trump on 2016 even though we can now clearly see it was one of the most significant events of the year.)

I am not a wiki policy wonk and I am sure there are some flaws in what i have put above, but we can correct small things later. I hope this would be a positive change that would fix a lot of the big issues we nearly all seem to acknowledge. AlasdairEdits (talk) 19:09, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose your proposal just gives more latitude to hidden rules and subversive "we don't do that" approaches, because something like "... significant independent news reporting ..." needs objective criteria to assess against. We need something concrete that can't be over-ruled by regulars who claim some kind of provenance, e.g. "the death is reported in at least two reliable sources in at least two continents". As for events, similar applies. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

  PS, the other RFC is perfectly meaningful, it's enabling a much wider audience to comment on the current situation and therefore hopefully bringing more views to the next phase: the solution. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

  I think editors understand words like significant, independent and reliable - these are concepts that are enshrined within wikipedia that we have to deal with every day, they are not totally objective of course but they are also not at all arbitrary. This is my attempt at a solution. I am trying to strike a balance between now and "just an article of links to other X in RY articles" neither of which serve our readers. AlasdairEdits (talk) 19:24, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

  I know what you're trying to do, it fails, but it's good to make a effort. My approach was to gather together as many interested individuals as possible and then get a brainstorm on how to fix it all up. To each their own. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

• Support. This resembles one of my suggestioms above. It would be constructive even if the other active RfC were constructive. (NOTE: I'm not saying the other RfC was not intended to be constructive, just that it could not be constructive.) I think "significant" coverage is good phrasing. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:34, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
• Ironic, isn't it, that the other RFC is getting so much discussion and support in favour of finding an alternative solution. It's done exactly what it intended to do, i.e. get many more eyes on the problem rather than just the regulars who keep stonewalling. This "one-size-fits-all" suggestion is well-intended, but not adequate. We need to work with the community to come up with more precisely and objectively defined criteria, not the current bizarre carnival of oddities that currently consitutes the essay for inclusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:39, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

That's enough, guys Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:21, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This is a proposed alternative solution. Why are you opposed to any proposed solutions? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:01, 16 September 2017 (UTC) I'm not opposed to "any" proposed solution, that's a lie. I'm opposed to this proposal. Please don't make false assertions yet again. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:11, 16 September 2017 (UTC) You have opposed all proposed solutions or specific changes (and most insufficiently specfic changes) which have been presented other than by yourself. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC) Arthur, are we going to have to bring this up at Arbcom? Diffs that prove I have "opposed all proposed solutions or specific changes " right now or a redaction and retraction of your accusation is needed. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:33, 16 September 2017 (UTC) It's impossible very difficult to prove a negative. However, if there is a specific proposal at WT:RY, other than those you proposed, which you did not oppose, and you can provide a diff, I'll admit my error. I can provide many diffs where you opposed proposals, but it wouldn't prove anything. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC) It would be impossible to demonstrate in the space available. I would have to list each formal proposal (and I could not prove I caught all of them), and point to one of your diffs opposing each one. If you believe the statement to be false, you could easily point to a specific proposal which you did not oppose; it would be easy enough for me to verify you didn't oppose the proposal, although I obviously couldn't provide proof. Before you bring up the proposal to eliminate the #Deaths sections from RY articles, you made the proposal before it was formally asked as a question requesting response, so it doesn't count as a proposal you didn't make. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:08, 17 September 2017 (UTC) Rubin, you don't have many options here, either provide diffs that support your unsubstantiated claim or remove the claim. You're already about to be desyssoped for making false and unsubstantiated claims, continued abuse like this will result in you being blocked. I'm sure you don't want that. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC) Arthur Rubin I'm still waiting for those diffs. The onus is absolutely 100% on you to prove your assertion. You know that, or at least you should know that as you are currently still an admin and that kind of thing is like Admin 101. You can't just level an unfounded accusation at someone and then state they need to defend it. I'm sure you don't want to be blocked, but continuing to edit like this will ultimately result in you being banned from Wikipedia. If you don't redact your latest unfounded accusations, I'll ask Arbcom to add it to the ongoing case as further evidence that not only can you not be trusted with the admin tools, but you can't be trusted here at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 18 September 2017 (UTC) Obviously, I can provide diffs that you have opposed many proposals; but diffs are not necessary – the presence of your "Oppose" !vote is sufficient evidence. Diffs would be insufficient to prove my statement, as I might have missed a proposal. The onus is on you to point to a proposal, which was not originally made by you, which you failed to oppose. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:54, 18 September 2017 (UTC) Please stop making unfounded accusations about me. I won't ask again, I will simply report you to Arbcom for each and every single infraction where you make an accusation and then refuse to back it up without any evidence whatsoever. The presence of my oppose vote here does not equate to your claim that I am "opposed to any proposed solutions". That is a pure lie and you need to redact it. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

How about deaths of (former) heads of state/government? Many of them aren't widely reported by the media. Jim Michael (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Deaths of individual of international and lasting significance like Nelson Mandela or Fidel Castro they are. minor heads of state of random small nations not so much. I don't propose to keep any special categories for inclusionAlasdairEdits (talk) 06:30, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Where would you draw the line in regard to heads of state/government? Jim Michael (talk) 18:52, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Just don't draw any line, to do so encourages systemic bias. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

How would we decide which (former) heads of state should be included and which should not? The guide of including all of them made sense - a leader of a nation is by definition of significant international notability. To include some but not others will be deemed as bias towards some parts of the world and bias against others. Jim Michael (talk) 19:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Include them all. ITNR has a good stab at this. Then there is no bias, simply reporting everyone. It's very simple. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

ITN doesn't include all or nearly all of them. We have been including them all on RY articles for years - so we agree on the matter of including all (former) heads of state/government. Jim Michael (talk) 22:53, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Only because ITN insists on a minimum quality threshold and no BLP violations, unlike this project. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:54, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Putting dead people under BLP rules is factually wrong. Excluding internationally notable people from Year articles - just because their articles don't meet a particular standard - would mean that some of the most notable people would be missing. That doesn't help anyone. Jim Michael (talk) 13:20, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I think you may need to read WP:BLP Jim. You are factually wrong (again). And many individuals are missing from your cherry-picked list. That doesn't help anyone. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not my personal list - it was formed by following RY criteria which had been written by the regulars over a period of years.
I'm not aware of any internationally notable people who died this year who are missing from 2017. Jim Michael (talk) 18:04, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

So redact your BLP violations, and of course you're not aware of any missing people because you have your own version of "internationally notable" which is not commensurate with the community. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

What BLP vios? I'm not responsible for vios of any kind which were added by other people to articles which I've linked to - whether on RY articles or elsewhere. As far as I'm aware, all of the people who have significant international notability and died this year are currently in this article. Jim Michael (talk) 23:25, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

The statements you yourself have made. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:38, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

• Generally support. I think this proposal takes the best of the current policy while removing the worst of it. The key point is that the proposal frames international notability in terms of the coverage of the event as opposed to the event itself. An event can be "domestic" in nature while still being internationally notable, and I think that a number of those have gotten lost previously. I do still think it needs some fine-tuning. The biggest hole I see in the "three continent" rule is that it automatically creates a systemic bias because Australia is its own continent and is culturally similar to the US/Canada (North America) and the UK (Europe). I don't want to make a kind of rule where Australia doesn't "count," but I'm not sure how else to resolve the issue. agtx 15:30, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

That's why the three-continent rule wasn't enough by itself to demonstrate international notability. It was merely one of the requirements. Jim Michael (talk) 19:13, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Right, a requirement that the regulars on these pages invoked when it was something they wanted to have on the page and pooh-poohed when it wasn't. Consider such absurd discussions as this one on the Charlie Hebdo shooting and this one on the US same-sex marriage decision. Under the proposal above, both of these events would be listed in the article (as I think is proper, and as Charlie Hebdo eventually was). I agree that there is no need for a bright-line rule here, but I think that reference to coverage in reliable sources is way better than discussions about "international impact" without citation to any sources. agtx 15:27, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment – This is a really good start. The biggest problem we currently have is determining what is and what is not "internationally significant". I don't think this proposal adequately addresses that problem, but it is better than our current system. I particularly like the addition regarding reliable sources assessing events as the most significant events of the year, although that does have the potential to create a system where the page is relatively bare for most of the year with a flurry of additions at the end of the year/beginning of the following year. I don't like the emphasis on the coverage of deaths; I think the emphasis should be on the person, not their death. Someone's death could go relatively unnoticed when their life was very significant. But I don't think the converse is true: if someone's death does receive the requisite coverage, then that does some indicative of significance. -- Irn (talk) 00:15, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes - someone can have a long, successful career but their death still receives little attention. That's the case with most of the important scientists (because most people aren't interested in them) and with many sportspeople who retired many years before their deaths and vanished from the public eye. It can even be the case with entertainers - for example, Lauren Bacall's death received little media coverage. However, it's not true to say that a high-profile death proves (s)he had an internationally (or even nationally) important career. A death can receive a large amount of coverage due to there being legal action, campaigning etc. involved (such as Terri Schiavo and Charlie Gard) - or due having been the victim of a high-profile murder (such as Rachel Nickell). Jim Michael (talk) 14:06, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

You're right, and I agree with everything you wrote in that comment. I apologize for the apparent contradiction in my comment as a result of not expressing myself clearly. While I think the focus should be on the person's life, I also think that people whose deaths were notable internationally ought to be considered as well. (Neither Rachel Nickell, Terri Schiavo, nor Charlie Gard has their own article, so those aren't the best examples. I was thinking someone more along the lines of Berta Cáceres.) I expect you to still disagree with that, and I don't hope to convince you otherwise. I just wanted to make sure I was expressing myself clearly. -- Irn (talk) 18:41, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Caceres was little-known outside her country during her lifetime. The circumstances of her death is the main thing that brought media coverage of her. This often happens with victims of murder who were of fairly low notability during their lifetimes, such as Sharon Tate and Rebecca Schaeffer. Jim Michael (talk) 21:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Right. If those deaths received the requisite coverage, then that would seem indicative of significance to me, but not to you. Like I said, I expect you to disagree with me, and I don't hope to convince you otherwise. -- Irn (talk) 01:11, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Couldn't we find one or more reliable, international sources which provide annual reviews including obituaries, where they have already identified notability, and use these sources as the determiner? Example: say the BBC, Guardian, New York Times, Reuters, and Sky have such articles, if individual X appears in 3 of those 5, they are deemed internationally notable? 62.255.118.6 (talk) 15:28, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes! That's what I've been mentioning for months now. Except perhaps a non-Western one or two would be useful to avoid bias and the problem is that we can't use them for the current year. But a good idea about the subsetting, if the requirement that the individual notice to appear in all of them proves to be too harsh. — Yerpo ^Eh? 16:52, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Sure; if we are seeking to define international notability it would be good to include a non-western source in the list of annual review publications. But essentially, if the source is international, then their selection by default would be international too. I think it's good to be inclusive but it's also worth remembering that this is the English Wikipedia, at to some extent it is to be expected to carry some bias towards the nationality of its audience and editors, according to what sources we can find, translate and understand. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose the solution for the events. Sorry, but the key requirement is too vague - what is "lasting" notability and how do you prove it if editors disagree? For this reason, I think that this proposal is not a significant improvement over the existing system. — Yerpo ^Eh? 18:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose This is far too woolly, and I'm more in favour of what has been discussed a few comments up with Yerpo - using annual review articles from reliable international sources to establish evidence of international notability; i.e. if the individual is notable enough to be included in 1/2/3/4/5 other annual review articles (from the BBC, Guardian, New York Times or whichever publications are decided to be internationally representative), then they are good enough to be included here. Simple, logical and nonsubjective. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 10:52, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

What do we do during the current year? agtx 13:10, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

We can use one of the other options, such as three-continent obituaries, then cleanup after the lists are published. — Yerpo ^Eh? 20:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Assume you mean news articles rather than obits (since we're talking about events). I think the "year in review" type pieces should be considered a preferred source for RY articles. That's a reliable source saying "here's the most important things that happened this year," which is exactly what we're looking for. I'm not convinced it should be a requirement, but it's a good indication that something should be on the page. agtx 21:39, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Support proposal by agtx: follow RS to compile the most influential events of each year. We could break it down by categories, using a couple sources for science, a couple others for politics, some more for entertainment, etc. — JFG ^talk 02:43, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I was talking about obituaries for compiling the deaths section. As for events, we could use the same approach, of course, but I'm not sure yet what to do in the current year, because the three continent rule hasn't proven to be an effective filter. — Yerpo ^Eh? 05:18, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Do we have to have anything for current year? Yerpo, earlier you were championing the inclusion of cherry-picked deaths in RY articles "because its what others do". Well, if others DON'T do current year annual reviews until the end of the year, why don't we follow suit? That leaves the current year either blank, or a set of links to all encyclopaedic-worthy deaths/events. We then correlate that list, 'cherry pick' according to criteria (ie. presence in alternative obit/annual review articles) and produce our own finished annual review article just as everyone else does. Without needing weird rules fraudulently promoted to guideline status by those currently lacking credibility. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

We do need a list of deaths on 2017, because many people view it each day. Many organisations have lists of notable people who've died this year so far. Jim Michael (talk) 01:29, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

many people view it each day - Links please. Many organisations have lists of notable people who've died this year so far. - Links please. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:54, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: - Jim: many people view it each day - Links please. Many organisations have lists of notable people who've died this year so far. - Links please. You've been editing so you are aware of my request. If you don't have the evidence to back up your claims, no problem - simply strike them from the record. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 10:14, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Go to WP:Pageview statistics, where you can search whichever timeframe you like, which will show you that this article receives thousands of views per day. Examples of RS which have published lists of deaths so far this year include the Daily Express People who died in 2017 and CNN People we've lost in 2017. Jim Michael (talk) 10:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Well that's great news, if we can find Reliable Sources such as these which cherry-pick in real time rather than end of year, the objection to the Annual Review/obit Reliable Source method in terms of making Current Year articles untenable, is completely overturned, wouldn't you agree? 62.255.118.6 (talk) 13:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

The problem is which sources to use. Even if we exclude tabloid sources, they will still be entertainer-centric, Americentric etc. Jim Michael (talk) 01:24, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Come on man, work with me here. For one, you can't just dismiss every RS as entertainer-centric. For two, this is Wikipedia. We aren't trying to outdo every other information source out there. If its good enough for Time magazine, or Forbes, or Reuters, or The Guardian, or the BBC, or Al Jazera, or Sky, or the New York Times etc etc. For three, a list slightly biased though its aggregation of a set of proffesional, international media group obits/annual reviews, is far far far far far superior to what you are fighting so desperately to uphold - a list biased by you and a weird, proves-nothing, principle breaching 9Wiki rule. You want to stick with something because its the best option available? Then let go of the 9wiki, cos best it certainly isn't. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:54, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Oppose for several of the above reasons. This page is not a guideline, so it shouldn't be trying to make "rules" any longer anyway. There's a germ of truth in the proposal, and a compressed version of it would probably be useful as broad advice. Take the tactic used by subject-specific notability guidelines, and address this a probability matter: "An addition to a year article is more likely to be accepted by consensus, if it has one or more of the following going for it: [bullet list here]".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  06:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC: Do we need to differentiate between "recent years" and other years?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The WP:RY "sub-project" (of WP:YEARS) mandates a unique set of inclusion criteria for years 2002 onwards. These criteria are not applied to years prior to 2002. Do we need to apply different inclusion criteria to year articles? Does our readership understand the reason for such differences in articles between 2001 and 2002? Or should our readers expect consistent formats across all year articles? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

• Is there an actual problem to address? I get the feeling that we don't bother with stricter inclusion criteria on older year articles due to reduced tendency to add trivia to them. I'm not sure why 2002 in particular was picked. Is it just a 15-year boundary that migrates as time goes on, or set permanently at 2002? (Never mind; discussions above answer this.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  05:40, 16 October 2017 (UTC), rev'd. 05:47, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

  I support the notion in a thread above to set the mark at 20 years (approx. 1 generation), which as JFG says is generally time enough for something to have transitioned from news to history and thus for its lasting importance to be more certain. However, this page is not a guideline, so anything it says should be framed as general advice, about the kind of list addition that is likely or not likely to be accepted. We can't actually impose any rule here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  06:16, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

  Yes, as noted, why should our readers inherently understand that articles from 2001 backward have different inclusion criteria from 2002 onward? How does this approach help our readers? The Rambling Man (talk) 06:33, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

  Discussion above indicates this date was chosen based on when WP started, and has a connection to the apparently now-rejected "seven Wikipedias rule" (which would no longer actually be a rule even if it hadn't been rejected, since this is no longer a guideline). The 2002 date is based on a string of assumptions that don't hold. It makes more sense to set this at 20 years or so, and have the boundary auto-update. Some might prefer 10 years. Regardless, this can be done with simple parser functions right in the page itself, so it auto-updates on its own. If the ultimate question is "should there be any difference between the 2017 and 1980 articles", I would say yes, for reasons JFG already outlined in two threads above, and which boil down the difference between well-analyzed history versus reactionarily-covered news. The closer in time to an event that seemingly secondary-source material about the event is, the more primary-source in nature that material really is.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  06:42, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

  I'm not sure you're answering the question, why should a reader expect to see a difference between 2001 and 2002 articles? And when this "recent" window expires on an article, as the inclusion criteria no longer applies, we would expect to see a load of edits... The Rambling Man (talk) 06:44, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Part of the ambiguity appears to be rooted in an underlying assumption that has not been demonstrated. The original author and some other prominent editors appear to have believed that a RY guideline, and its admittedly arbitrary time cut-offs, are necessary to prevent the mass additions of spurious and frivolous entries into the 2002+ articles. This "assumes facts not in evidence," to use the legal phrase. The hypothesis that this essay guideline essay reduced the number of entries that had to be reverted after 2010 should be testable. I haven't seen that evidence brought forward in recent discussions here, or in the original discussions surrounding the creation of this piece. In the absence of evidence of those problems, having any time cut-off seems needlessly arbitrary. The lede could just as easily say: "Recent year articles are among the most heavily edited..." and be done with it. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

"most edited" is actually factually inaccurate... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:40, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Would "...among the most-viewed..." be accurate? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:46, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

No. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:50, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

In that case, then there's no reason for the sentence to exist at all. There may not even be a reason for the essay to exist if there's no evidence of large-scale disruption and if the pages are not among the most edited or most viewed. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

• No. We do not need a differentiation. It's an attempted 'fix' for a problem that doesn't exist, and just convolutes our records and confuses our readers. Bin it. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 11:18, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
• No. We should use the same inclusion criteria for all years, regardless of recency. Events/births/deaths of international importance as supported by reliable sources should be included. WP:YEARS is an appropriate place to centralize that effort, not this essay. The arguments I've seen to the contrary largely involve concerns about the growth of Wikipedia and of the internet, but I fail to see how that problem is unique to a handful of year pages. All this recent years business has gotten us is WP:OWN behavior and poor guidelines. agtx 05:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

In that case, we would need a guideline for what is eligible for inclusion in any year article, whether it be in the distant past, the recent past, the present or the future. Jim Michael (talk) 13:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

I thought we already had such guidelines for the entire project. What's so special about any year article, recent, ancient, or otherwise? That said, such standards are already in place. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:55, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

We don't have guidelines for what should or should not be in Year articles, but we need them. Jim Michael (talk) 18:38, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

"...but we need them," um, why? Please provide some concrete evidence that year articles, especially recent ones, have created an actual (as opposed to perceived) problem to support this necessity. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:46, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

The evidence is that, prior to the implementation of the RY guideline, the articles in question were flooded with insufficiently notable events and deaths. Jim Michael (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's extremely unconvincing to me. The attempts to curate these pages have largely failed. The recent years articles are not particularly useful right now. agtx 02:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

• Yes - The growth of Wikipedia and the internet are relevant because we now have far more information compiled across Wikipedia with each passing year. I think everyone is aware of WP:RECENTISM, but I don't think everyone quite sees how that affects these articles. To try to break it down, for the year 1517, we can easily list every single person we have an article for who died in that year in the 1517 article itself. For 2017, we simply can't – the article would just get too long. The same applies to events. Consequently, we need to have a different standard for the events, births, and deaths of 2017 than we do for 1517. 2002 is an arbitrarily chosen year where this line has been drawn. If we look at the amount of information available and the number of biographical articles and articles on events, it makes sense to go with somewhere near 2001 or 2002 because that coincides with the birth of Wikipedia and the explosion of the internet, because as things happen, they are added to the encyclopedia. -- irn (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Edit conflictThis argument still pre-supposes that there is a problem with these articles being made "too long" and does not show any evidence of such a problem. To pick some examples at a random set of ten-year intervals, 1978 is 87,993bytes and has been viewed 7,954 times in the last 30 days, 1988 is 97,555bytes and has been viewed 12,943 times in the last 30 days, 1998 is 65,047bytes and has been viewed 15,152 times in the last 30 days while 2008 is 42,027bytes and has been viewed 13,267 times in the last 30 days. That sample, at least, shows that post-2002 articles are shorter and there is no relationship between length of the page and whether readers are likely to use the page. There is no evidence that the essay provides any necessary selectivity. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't think I understand your point. You ask for proof that the pages have gotten too long, but RY has effectively prevented that, so it's impossible to prove. 2008 is shorter because of RY. The problem with page length isn't about how many visits a particular article may receive, but rather about readability and technical issues like load times. I readily concede that 2002 is arbitrary. Perhaps a better date would be 1990 (the invention of the World Wide Web) or 1950 (roughly the onset of the digital revolution) or even something like 1920 (to cover the lifespans of most people affected by the changes noted in my previous comment). (Regarding post-2002 articles being shorter than other year articles, I see that as a problem with the implementation/interpretation of RY and reason to change either the way it's written or interpreted, but I don't think that's reason to discard RY entirely.) -- irn (talk) 16:09, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

2008 is (was?, may be?, should have been?) covered by the essay but is a year that pre-dates the creation of the essay. If the hypothesis that this essay is necessary to prevent issues for readers is true, it should either show evidence of such a length so as to cause those problems you mention or show evidence that large post-2010 deletions were necessary and justified by the essay to remove such problems. As shown above, the length is obviously not a problem in comparison to other year articles not covered by the policy and the edit history of the page does not show any such large efforts were undertaken to bring it in line with the essay. In other words, this sample at least does not support the hypothesis that is basal to the need for this essay and I have seen no-one providing any positive evidence for the hypothesis. In the absence of such evidence, we should consider the hypothesis unproven and the essay not needed.

tl;dr version: We don't have any reason to believe that such readability issues exist or that the essay solves any concrete problem. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:23, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

So the condition of the 2008 article is what led to the creation of RY. By the end of June 2008, the 2008 article was already over 90,000 bytes. With six more months to go in the year, it was already in "probably should be divided" territory and clearly on a path to exceeding "almost certainly should be divided" territory, and the efforts that went into trimming it back are ultimately what led to the creation of RY (see the section above #Historical education: One editor's history of this project). -- irn (talk) 16:44, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for being the first to provide some version of the evidence I've been stating has been lacking throughout these multiple discussions, @Irn:. I obviously didn't go back far enough in the edit history. That said, I don't agree that the page history shows good evidence that the article was getting too long and would have created difficulties even if allowed to grow unchecked. There are literally 10,000 pages that are currently longer than 2008 at it greatest extent. Even on my 5-year-old Android phone, I have zero problems loading or reading Raymond Burr (119,842bytes). It didn't even choke on 1944 Birthday Honours (500,083 bytes). Admittedly, List of members of the Lok Sabha 1952-2017 at 1,113,541bytes does crash my phone's app, but that's an order of magnitude bigger than any post-2002 year article I looked at. Unless or until recent year articles start breaking the >500,000byte level, I still don't see that there's an issue justifying the essay. If we look at all the years articles between 2002 (the earliest covered by the policy) and 2009 (the latest covered for a year before the essay was created), none reached anything like that at their greatest extents:

Year article	Greatest extent (bytes)	Peaked in year
2002	52.238	2006
2003	56,349	2007
2004	67,614	2007
2005	75,328	2008
2006	112,995	2009
2007	122,508	2007
2008	108,851	2012
2009	78,038	2016

The more I look for concrete evidence and statistics supporting the hypothesis that this essay is necessary (rather than anecdotes or armchair theorizing), the less I find supporting it and the more I find support for countervailing arguments. Most of them had gotten smaller even before the earliest efforts at a policy on exclusivity of year articles. The other two of those articles got bigger after this essay was created and one reached its greatest length when it had gotten elevated to guideline status. These are exactly the opposite effects we'd expect if the hypothesis was true. That suggests that not only is this essay not creating smaller articles but also that it isn't having even the selectivity effects that its proponents envisioned. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:55, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

First, just some minor nit-picking: Xtools doesn't track article size perfectly. I think it just gives the size at the end of the year. So, for example, the largest that 2007 ever got was actually 128,324 bytes on August 18, 2008. Ultimately, I don't know how much of a difference that makes, and I don't feel like going through and checking all of them; I think your general point still stands.

Your argument that the recommendations of WP:AS should be ignored is an interesting one, and I hadn't thought about that. I had just kind of assumed that the people who created WP:AS created those recommendations for good reason, but that is merely an assumption.

However, accepting that the general recommendations of WP:AS are still valid, your greater argument (that you don't see the need) strikes me as flawed. There was a problem (as seen in 2008); RY was created to address that problem. The fact that there has been no problem since then is as much proof that this has been working as it is that there's no need for it.

You can also compare the growth of year articles over time. Whereas most non-RY but still relatively recent year articles have grown over time as little by little people add births, deaths, and events (especially those from the late 80s into the 90s), RY articles have generally held pretty stable, which I see as evidence that RY is working. -- irn (talk) 22:09, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

• No this "birth of the internet" or "Birth of Wikipedia" is a red herring, and a really unhelpful one, especially to our readers who are not aware (nor should they be) of the arcane machinations of project selection criteria. Books and encyclopedias were printed before, during and after the internet boom, and no-one is talking about listing everyone who died in any year in the year article, that's already covered elsewhere. The delineation is completely fake and totally unnecessary. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

The RY guideline was created to counter the flood of insufficiently notable events and deaths which were being added to recent year articles. In the absence of restriction on entries, the more recent a Year article is, the longer it tends to be. Media coverage has increased massively during the last few decades. Jim Michael (talk) 18:42, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Adequately and evidentially disproven above. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:36, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

• No per The Rambling Man. Double sharp (talk) 10:29, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

The fact that, during the 2010s, year articles covering the 80s and 90s have been greatly expanded - whilst RY articles haven't - is proof that the RY guideline is necessary and was effective. If anything, it should cover more years. Jim Michael (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Like...... all years!!!!!!! Checkmate. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:59, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

• No The fact that, even at their largest extents, no year article of any recency shows up anywhere on LongPages proves that the repeated argument that the guideline is "necessary" is either personal preference of a tiny handful of editors or outdated information. The project is more than capable of handling year article pages of unrestrained length. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:27, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

The Year articles which have been most expanded are those which are the most recent not to be covered by RY. If the RY guideline hadn't been implemented, the years covered by RY would be the longest of all the Year articles. Very long articles full of events and deaths that aren't internationally notable would dilute the value of the articles and would reduce the number of people reading the sub-articles such as 2017 in science and 2017 in the United States. Jim Michael (talk) 21:38, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Prove your assertion, and even if you could, that's a problem because.... ? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

By the way, so-called "very long articles full of ... deaths which aren't inernationally notable" such as Deaths in 2017 receive an average of 105,000 views per day, while the curated and heavily managed 2017 gets around 5,500. Why are you working so hard to ensure our readers avoid these cherry-picked pages and head straight for the comprehensive versions? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

No-one is suggesting that Deaths in 2017 and similar articles be deleted or reduced in length. They're so long that they're divided by month. The deaths list for the current year is always one of the most frequently viewed pages because it's where readers who are looking for information about people who died recently. All those deaths can't be and shouldn't be on the relevant year article.

You appear to be implying that RY articles would be read more often if they were longer. That's almost certainly true, but it would also almost certainly significantly reduce the number of people who would read the subarticles, such as 2017 in music and 2017 in the United Kingdom. Many people go directly to either one of the subarticles, or to the articles of the people or events which they want to read. I disagree with your assertion that lengthening RY articles is in the interests of our readers. Jim Michael (talk) 13:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with your continued assertions of what should be testable facts without any evidence to back it up. How do we know that longer year articles would "...almost certainly significantly reduce..." readership of any articles? Did we test that previously? Are there readership trends that can be linked to? Is it anecdotal memory or personal supposition? Where is the evidence to support these conclusions? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:30, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, it's tiring to combat the continual reiteration of the "Kim Kardashian" argument or the "unpopular around a watercooler" claims. These are absolutely not what our readers believe, and absolutely not what our community believes. One could conjure up 100 arguments in an attempt to claim some kind of RY boundary exists, but the simple fact of the matter is that it really doesn't. Apply a common approach to all year articles. Some will have more than others. A good comparison is taking a look at the content in The Boat Races 2016 and The Boat Race 1963 for example. Both are comprehensive, for the available material, and that's what our readers expect. They don't suddenly expect a cut-off point at which some items are mysteriously (to them, because they don't and shouldn't need to read the essay at RY) aren't allowed. That's not serving our readers well at all. And honestly, this is 2017, all this talk of "long pages" relating to >100KB, give me strength, I have a <1MB/s connection at home and I can cope with just about every page Wikipedia throws at me. It only actually gets a little worse when rendering pages with tons of transcluded templates, and articles such as 2017 don't have that all. So, time to get with the present people. TL;dr: we may need some criteria, but they should apply to all year articles and we shouldn't be scared of large articles!! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:10, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I think a really important point is being missed here. Irn and Jim - why are we working so hard to create weird, inexplicably cherry-picked annual summaries of incomplete information, based on POV and suffering problems with bias and arguments regarding criteria, when the supposedly more bloated and horrible articles of complete information receive 20 times the daily hits? Sounds like people aren't liking your annual summaries. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 16:15, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

  Yes, as I noted above, the RY articles seem to get a readership about equivalent to a weak DYK while the main "Deaths in..." articles receive nearly as much interest as the Main Page. So in any language, that would seem to imply that readers prefer the comprehensive list to the cherry-picked list, by about 20 to 1. Ironically, we have some of the regulars here "maintaining" articles like 2010s which (despite it being three years from completion) is already at >370KB. What a terrible mishmash of ideas, doctrine, implementation and enforcement. Pity our readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for the big post: This is actually what brought me to this ol’ mess to begin with. I was in the office discussing the spate of deaths to have occurred in the last year and ventured onto Wikipedia for a ballpark figure – I went in via the year and noticed several deaths were missing.

There was no explanation as to why they were not included, no explanation that the year article was a cherry picked summary, how this cherry picking was undertaken, by who and why. It just appeared like an article inexplicably missing information.

I then came across the ‘deaths in’ article and found a comprehensive list. It occurred to me that I would never use the Year article from that point forward, because it would be missing information and perhaps I wouldn’t know what was missing or why - the article would basically be erroneous and redundant.

Realising this would be true of all year articles, I thought I’d see what was going on ‘under the hood’. At first I thought a better criteria for inclusion should be established which helped make it clear to readers (like me) what the situation was. I must say I’ve been pretty shocked by the behaviour of Arthur Rubin, an admin, and a handful of others, most notably Jim Michael, who have been so difficult and averse to change. The regulars here have taken things personally, shown incredible ownership issues, even resorting to lying to discredit another editor, talk page harassment, warnings and general roadblocking to keep the status quo, which considering the mess, seemed utterly irrational and in no way putting the readers and the project first.

That aside, and having learnt more about the Recent Years differential, I find the whole thing to be an even bigger, convoluted and confusing mess – especially when looking through the eyes of a reader.

We don’t need Recent Years. Nobody outside of Wikipedia understands. It’s only defence seems to be to ensure Year articles don’t become comprehensive accounts of what happened that year. Read that back and tell me you don’t instantly recoil and think WHAT? And WHY? Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. It should be showing comprehensive and complete information. It’s not Heat magazine, providing tasty snippets of favourite deaths and events. We don’t have the means to justify cherry-picking – we aren’t a source that is supposed to operate under a bias, or for a target audience. We are supposed to be an impartial, factual record. We shouldn’t be writing articles with the mentality of “Hey! We are Wikipedia and these are the deaths and events we think are most important!” So Year articles very much should be what the core ‘owners’ are fighting against – a comprehensive record of events and deaths that year.

Or they shouldn’t exist at all and we should stop duplicating information in an unclear, misleading manner that readers have zero clue about. As how would anyone know that the list of deaths they found in 2017 (or any year) was missing important information? If it was Arthur and Jim’s article, in 2017 major earthquakes and shootings would not have happened and famous people like Bruce Forsyth, Sean Hughes and the co-founder of an international seminal rock band would not have died. Is this really what we want to be showcasing?

In my mind, scrap Recent Years entirely. Year articles can provide links to the more comprehensive lists at country-based year articles, and the complete ‘Deaths in’ articles. There is zero need to duplicate information, especially incomplete information, with no explanation to the reader and no clear rationale for doing so. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:55, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Sean Hughes and Scott Putesky aren't among the most important people to have died this year - they're not even among the most important in their respective countries.

Information being duplicated is inevitable. Articles such as 2017 in music, 2017 in film and 2017 in science will include some of the info that's on 2017 in the United States, 2017 in the United Kingdom etc. Jim Michael (talk) 19:42, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it would be much easier for our readers, and much more comprehensive, to point at Deaths in 2017. Burying each notable death or omitting it entirely because of a personal preference or arcane selection criterion should be discouraged, the pageviews clearly make a case for the comprehensive WP:GNG list, rather than this rather opaquely selected group of "super notable" individuals. Page length is not an issue by the way, this is 2017 now, not 2002 when most of us dreamed of free dial-up accounts at Compuserve. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:00, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michaels: So why duplicate it further unnecessarily in a clandestine, confusing and incomplete manner? 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

At the end of each year, many mainstream media sources produce lists of people who died during the year; some produce lists much earlier of those who've died during the year so far. Those lists don't usually include people of marginal notability - they're shorter lists of the more important people. We should do likewise - and we do. No-one's claiming that RY articles would be so long that they would take a long time to load or would crash. We're providing a concise review of the events & deaths of each year. Jim Michael (talk) 12:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

No, that's not what's being provided at all, as evidenced by page views. If readers genuinely felt they were getting something positive from these RY articles, they'd received more than an average DYK's worth of hits per day. The current approach may serve the needs and wishes of the established users here, but that is in direct contradiction of all the evidence suggesting that the current approach does not serve the general community of editors well, nor, most importantly, our readers. Take an example. 2005 received an average of 440 page views per day over the past month. Thats only twice as many page views as my own talk page. No-one is interested in these RY articles, they contain (to our readers) a bizarrely selected set of events and a group of "super notable" deaths, the criteria for which is completely undetermined. Little wonder no-one outside the users here are really interested in such articles. Concise (in this situation) is the enemy of the reader. This is not a paper encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: Mainstream media sources have a target demographic they shape their content for. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedic database of information. We shouldn't be cultivating POV lists, especially when doing so is highly contentious and barely worth doing in terms of readership. Encyclopaedias should strive to provide complete information. Not half the information with no explanation or warning that what we are presenting is missing so much. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

• No - There should be the same format and consistency throughout, The whole "before 2002 this applies and after 2002 this applies" makes no sense, Apply one consistent format or whatever throughout all years. –Davey2010^Talk 15:59, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Then we need to establish a set of inclusion criteria for all year articles. Jim Michael (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree Jim, By all means start another RFC to establish a criteria (I'm only saying you because you're the most knowledgable with all this), Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 17:57, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

No, that's not true. The "non-RY" articles, i.e. everything from 2001 backwards, have had no inclusion criteria applied whatsoever. Why do we have literally hundreds of articles about year events without any criteria and yet around 16 with criteria, most of which have been deemed patently unsuitable? We could just rely on our community to decide what is in and what is out, that's a perfectly Wikipedian manner of inclusion, and presumably how every single article from 2001 backwards has operated for some time now. We have GNG and community consensus, that's all we need! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

They should all have criteria, but writing and establishing them has been neglected. Older years haven't had as much added to them, so the problem of insufficiently notable additions is less severe there. The RY criteria were established to stem the flow to the worst-affected year articles. Jim Michael (talk) 01:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

If the thousands of pre-2001 articles have been fine for time immemorial then there's no logic in trying to apply any kind of RY at all. And we have plenty of consensus here agreeing with that position, so we will simply mark RY as historical and move on. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Not since time immemorial; WP was created in 2001. They aren't fine - they need inclusion criteria because insufficently notable events, births and deaths are frequently added to them.

Another reason for having a higher entry bar for recent years compared to older ones is that recent years have far more subarticles to accommodate the many more entries. Jim Michael (talk) 16:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

No, that's not true. They're just fine. Check this out, it demonstrates that the two years before the RY boundary get 50% more pageviews than the two years after RY! And even extending that search range demonstrates that RY adds nothing at all to the readership of the recent articles. Our readers seem to think that articles outside the remit of the RY criteria are just fine and that's what we're here to do, provide our readers with what they want. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:12, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

That supports my assertion to a degree. The articles that weren't under RY are longer, so they receive more views - but there are fewer sub-articles than there are for recent years. The RY criteria had the effect of diverting many readers from the main page to its subarticles for more in-depth coverage devoted to its topic/country. Jim Michael (talk) 17:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

No, it directly contradicts what you've just said. The years prior to RY are more popular than the RY ones, and the years prior to RY have no guidelines. This is all about serving our readers, and the RY articles, per the evidence, clearly do not. Readers are not diverted elsewhere, those articles are seldom viewed. Anyway, we have a clear consensus here to remove RY altogether, so I think we're done for now! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

They're viewed less often because many readers go directly to the sub-article(s) which they are interested in. Jim Michael (talk) 18:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

The more recent a year article is, the more sub-articles it has. The total number of views of all sub-articles for a year increase the more recent it is. That proves that more readers are going to the sub-articles for recent years. Jim Michael (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

No Jim, that's not true. There are hundreds of articles prior to RY which are sub-articles of years. RY doesn't have exclusive rights over sub-articles. Please don't continue to make false assertions. WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I didn't claim that RY has exclusive rights over sub-articles. I said that the older the year, the fewer sub-articles it has. The larger number of sub-articles for recent years means that many readers go to those sub-articles - decreasing the viewership for the main articles for recent years. Jim Michael (talk) 23:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what you believe to be the case, we have a clearcut consensus that RY is no longer required. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

• No per TRM. If there is going to be a set criteria at all, which might itself be overly bureaucratic as opposed to just the normal BRD cycle, they should be standardized across all years. Looking at recent discussions on this topic, it seems that this guideline is used to artificially relocate items that would've made into pre-RY articles on the basis of arbitrary criteria. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 14:55, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Comment no comments have been made on this discussion for nearly four weeks so I suggest it is closed according to the consensus. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:09, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
• Kind of? 2002 is very arbitrary, but I can see applying a different set of standards to the current year (and perhaps the previous year) to prevent issues with WP:RECENTISM. On the other hand, I see no reason to distinguish between 2001 and 2008. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 17:26, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

  Do you think our readers expect such an arbitrary delineation? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:27, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

• Comment time to close this discussion and end the debate. There's a clear consensus against this arbitrary delineation between the format of so-called "recent year" articles, there's been no substantive addition to this debate for several weeks, so it's time to finally resolve this. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:39, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

• Neutral – Special guidelines for recent years may not be required at all. If we do keep any, they should be drawn out from wide community input, instead of the walled garden approach that has been prevalent since this guideline was established. — JFG ^talk 12:13, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

• Comment – Close requested.[1] — JFG ^talk 12:13, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Format Year Articles Solution

We should always favour the most simple, clear and logical way to present our information.

It’s my opinion that there is no logical need to differentiate recent years from non-recent years, as discussed above.

Wikipedia is NOT a media company with a POV tailored to a target demographic. We are an encyclopaedic source of complete information. We should always strive to avoid creating content according to bias. Cultivating discriminate lists IS creating content according to bias. The criteria by which we are trying to cultivate these lists, is controversial in itself, as the notion of notability is subjective and we as editors cannot even agree what it is, or on a way to measure it.

The simplest, clearest and most logical step forward would be to simply stop doing it. There is no coherent argument as to why we should be doing it. “Other media sources do it” – well, we aren’t a media source. “It’s helpful to our readers” – our readers don’t seem to visit these cherry-picked articles at all, and much favour the comprehensive lists RY link to. “It presents information in a clearer way” – well, it doesn’t because the reader is completely in the dark; nowhere in these articles is it explained that the events/deaths listed are incomplete, why they are incomplete, why specific information may be missing or how the process works.

So I propose a completely simple resolution, that avoids POV, conflict, controversy, argument, duplication and confusion. Just YEAR articles, formatted thus:

---

20XX

--Lede--

Events

By Topic:

• Events by topic links

By Place:

• Events by place Links

Births

Deaths

• Link to Deaths in 20XX

---

Job done. Minimal admin, minimal conflict, just a clean source of links to complete, comprehensive information and no need for these redundant, meaningless, unused, time sink POV lists. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:45, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

That is a very reasonable and logical argument. Thank you for proposing it! However, I think it misses a key point: these are articles about years. There's no reason that 2017 as a year can't have an article explaining what happened that year just like 2017 in India exists as an article explaining what happened in India that year. Just because we're having a hard time reaching consensus doesn't mean we should give up entirely. Also, what would go in the lead? And how would we write the lead while avoiding all of the pitfalls you've enumerated?

Also, Cultivating discriminate lists IS creating content according to bias. This is a bit more philosophical, but literally every decision that is made by an editor is subjective and is, therefore, affected by bias. Every edit is the result of someone's opinion. We can't get rid of that; we can only try to create systems to minimize its effect (see, for example, WP:SYSTEMICBIAS). But even looking at your solution, 2017 in India is subject to the same bias problems as 2017, only on a smaller scale: instead of asking which events are of international importance, the question becomes which events are of national importance. You can't avoid that sort of subjectivity; it's present in literally everything we do here. It's just that in this situation, it's more obvious than in others. But the solution shouldn't be to gut the article, but rather to come up with a system to handle these differences of opinion. RY was an attempt at that. It wasn't perfect – the 9 wiki rule is arbitrary and the “international significance” requirement is vague and was interpreted by the most active users in a very restrictive sense, both of which seem to have frustrated many users – but it's better than ditching the year articles all together.

And there seems to be this idea that because RY is no longer a guideline, it should be disregarded entirely, but I would like to point to the closing decision, which stated editors are advised to try to follow by the essay as far as possible, while working in the subject area. -- irn (talk) 13:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

What happened in India in 2017 is not up for the same level of debate. It happened in 2017. It happened in India. There is very little cherry-picking, as the objective is clearer and events are fewer. As it is sourced at 2017 in India, we would simply just have to link to it from the 2017 year article, under ‘by country’. The data would be recorded, and would be filed correctly and logically.

On the other hand, what happened in ‘the world’ in 2017, is entirely up for debate. We don’t have any idea what constitutes as internationally significant. We have different nationalities, with different POV’s, arguing with different ideas of whether something is important or not. Instead of a national gauge of impact we have a varying degrees of crystal balling and conjecture. Cherry-picking what ‘domestic events’ (every event is domestic) is significant to the world incurs offence, exclusion, accusation and argument – which occurs far less under a shared nationality. If we record everything that happened, we may as well just link to the sub-articles and avoid duplication. If we present an abridged list, it is entirely subject to POV/bias as I outlined above. And we would need a reason to do this, and a way of doing so. We don’t have either.

I’m not arguing that, because RY is no longer a guideline, we should abandon it. I’m arguing that there is actually no logical reason for RY and no sound way of doing it anyway. Pointing out the country sub-articles as a reason for RY is an erroneous argument. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 11:39, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

While what is "national" may not be up for the same level of debate, it's still very much up for debate, and I see no reason to believe that any list aggregating national events won't run into the problems with aggregating a list of international events. Just as some events appear "international" to some and merely "national" to others, within a country, you can just as easily have events that appear to be "national" to some and merely "local" to others. (I do agree with you that I would expect there to be less disagreement and less conflict, but, as you've stated, forcing all events off the main year page will draw more attention to the year-in-country articles, which will increase that level of debate.) Essentially, your proposal doesn't solve the problem of a cherry-picked list because the national lists are also inherently cherry-picked. If the cherry-picking is your main concern, the only way I can see around this would be to mandate that the lower-level articles include everything that happens within the borders of a given country – every notable event, every notable birth, and every notable death. If that is your argument, I think that needs to be made explicit. I also think it's untenable.

That said, systemic bias is my main concern here, and I think this proposal does address systemic bias in a constructive way. I'd like to find a better solution because I think that having an article about each year that actually offers an overview of what happened in that year is useful. But if we can't come up with anything that adequately addresses systemic bias, I'd be willing to support this proposal.

tl;dr I disagree with the logic behind your proposal, but I could get behind it if we can't come up with a better way to address systemic bias. -- irn (talk) 14:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Lolz, it amuses me that you are disagreeing with my proposal because it fails to address the possible bias and conflict that exists on the national articles. I’ve clicked through ten random national articles and found a grand total of two comments!

Even if there were heated debate, conflict and bias being thrown around at national level, its completely illogical to suggest we carry on doing something preposterous, because the same preposterousness is happening on sub-articles. That’s close to the ludicrous stuff Jim and Arthur were coming out with in defence of the RY essay (my favourites: “this is the way it’s always been done” and “its better than nothing”).

It’s a shame you also ignore my point that national impact and national notability is infinitely more measurable than international impact and notability. I shouldn’t really need to spell it out but a great national sportsman doesn’t incite an argument about the popularity of the sport. A national celebrity doesn’t incite a fight between people with drastically different awareness of them. An event that made the news in a country undoubtedly had justifiable notability for inclusion, and doesn’t incite a row about how many countries it was reported in, or how many nations it may directly or indirectly effect, immediately or in the future. People will be working from a shared consciousness and bias, even regional, is far far far less hypersensitive and fervent than national, if it is exists at all in some countries.

So no, what is “national” is not anywhere near the same level of debate and does not suffer from any of the hazards found in the cherry-picking at international level. Your argument doesn't have any weight to it. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 13:12, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

I’ve clicked through ten random national articles and found a grand total of two comments! That's because those sub-lists receive almost zero attention. Take India, for example. A country with a billion citizens, yet over 90% of content of 2016 in India was added by four (4) users. The sub-pages for smaller countries border on uselesness. The page 2017 in Sweden, as another example, list half as many notable deaths of Swedes than 2017, and its events section is a joke! How would delegating the responsibility to those benefit our readers, exactly? — Yerpo ^Eh? 14:53, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Perfect example of the ownership issues here at RY. We aren't responsible for 2017, just as India with their billion citizens aren't responsible for India in 2017. We as editors are collectively responsible for all projects. Instead of some Norwegian chap trying to add a recently deceased skier to RY and getting embroiled in a timesink argument born of the subjectivity of notability or international impact or whatever the clandestine criteria buzz-word of the week is, he would add it to Norway. Hey! My idea not only rescues the omnishambles of RY, it also directs content towards and improves the national sub-articles! Thanks for pointing that out, Yerp XXX 62.255.118.6 (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

So now you're trying to force editors to start editing pages they're not interested in? What exactly you're hoping to achieve by that? — Yerpo ^Eh? 17:57, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Why are you so rattled by this, Yerpo? I've proposed a helpful solution to a problem, and expressed exactly what I hope to achieve. I've not forced anybody to do anything, and neither would my proposal. If someone is interested enough in an event to add it to a year article, why would they "not be interested in" adding it to the country the event occurred in? Getting all hot and bothered about it is kinda weird. Why aren't you interested in finding a solution? It sometimes feels that RY exists more for the enjoyment of the regulars than for the actual readers we are supposed to be creating content for. Wikipedia isn't a space provider for pet projects. If you want to create a pointless annual review site that nobody visits, strewn with you own personal idea of who and what is important to you, why don't you sign up to a free blogging service or webhost? You could do what you liked then. I don't understand why you insist on doing it here, on an online encyclopaedia. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 11:57, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Because annual reviews are encyclopedically relevant and, like any other page, they will require some sort of editorial selection. The only question is what kind. You may not remember, but I proposed at least one solution before, and explained why I don't think the laziest solution is good (IIRC, others weren't so enthusiastic about it either). If your personal opinion and feeling is that annual reviews are useless, why don't you just leave RY alone? What's here is certainly better than no content which is what you're proposing. Strawman arguments about my motives/emotions and false accusations about me not wanting to find a solution certainly aren't constructive, they only beg the question what is your real game here.

If someone is interested enough in an event to add it to a year article, why would they "not be interested in" adding it to the country the event occurred in? I don't know, but the fact is that they aren't. The state of sub-pages speaks for itself, eventhough nothing is preventing editors from adding events to both places (or to a sub-page alone if an event gets rejected here). So the logical conclusion is that your solution would diminish informational value of this encyclopedia - which is something I'm definitely opposed to. If that earns me a "rattled" label from you, well, let's just say that I won't lose any sleep over it. — Yerpo ^Eh? 16:37, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

The state of the sub pages is due to people posting stuff on RY. So that’s a circular argument. If Year articles became a constructive and useful link set to sub-pages, content would obviously be directed there. Meh, I’m just trying to help – you regulars need to stop acting like I’ve walked up and kicked over your sandcastle. In my opinion, annual reviews belong on news sites, not places which are supposed to offer complete information without bias. You are welcome to defend RY articles to the death, but nobody reads them. Which begs the question of whether they are indeed relevant, helpful or worth the time. Clicking on a year, and seeing a list of sub-categories relevant to that year which are home to comprehensive information, is an entirely logical process. You, Jim and Arthur lolling about making your own personal list of favourite celebs and topics you’ve nattered about with your mates isn’t, and doesn’t seem to be what editors or readers want. Sorry, bud. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 11:52, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

The state of the sub pages is due to people posting stuff on RY. So that’s a circular argument. Any evidence that this is actually happening? Even if it were, this would, ironically, disprove your fixed idea that RY lists are irrelevant. Also, thousands of daily views is far from "nobody reads them". So in the light of actual facts and logic, I will take the liberty of ignoring your arrogant description of what people you don't agree with are doing. Don't bother to reply if you're not willing to start contributing more constructively to this discussion. — Yerpo ^Eh? 12:54, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I think it's clear I've contributed quite a lot constructively to this. I've presented a solution and I'm merely addressing your frostily delivered criticisms of it, that I don't find logical at all. Cool, I get it - you aren't on board. When the time comes, just !vote no. But nothing you have said here has really discredited the idea. you know I was speaking comparatively re: viewing figures, it's pretty explicit in my posts. And you surely you don't really believe the state of the sub-articles is a sound defence for retaining RY. But yeah, we've gone as far as we can here - until you are less rattled by the whole thing, there isn't much point chatting anything through with you further. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:18, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see the value in repackaging the same idea after it hasn't received support on more than one occasion earlier. Which is why I may have sounded annoyed, but my comments should be understood in this wider context. Anyway, yes, I do believe the state of the sub-articles is a sound defence for retaining RY - that approach to organizing content is not functioning and I've already said what I think about diminishing informational value of this encyclopedia. — Yerpo ^Eh? 10:20, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

• This idea has been proposed and rejected before. (Even before WP:RY was proposed.) As it's a style guide as well as a content guide, more than two or three editors need to be in favor for it to be reconsidered. And the subarticles get more hits because they are allowed to be linked, while the year articles are not, per WP:YEARLINK. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:45, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

  So what? This micro-project now has a much wider audience and as such it's clear that "the way it's always been" is actually not in keeping with the community or the readers. So anything, even previously rejected by the tiny microcosm voting here previously, is perfectly allowable for suggestion. Plus, your claim that As it's a style guide as well as a content guide, more than two or three editors need to be in favor for it to be reconsidered. needs verifiable evidence. Please provide links to the relevant policies which say "more than two or three editors" need to ratify this suggestion. If not, I'd suggest you stop claiming some kind of authority over this, and other such discussions. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

  As a style guide, it is subject to voting, so it needs more votes in favor now than it had votes against then. There really are no "arguments" to be weighed. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:03, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

  No, you completely failed to answer my request. Please do so, i.e. cite the policy that is backing your continued claims. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

  Arthur Rubin, you didn't respond to this, could you now please provide evidence to back you original claim or redact it, thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:37, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

• Frankly, this feels like giving up. I understand this debate has been contentious, but I still think it's possible to make these articles—particularly the events sections—work properly. As far as the births/deaths, I have no problem keeping them out of the year articles and moving them to sub articles only. That seems reasonable. But we ought to be able to come up with a listing of events for the year. With births/deaths gone, I don't think there would be a problem with having 15-20 events per month. The page would still be manageable, and it would give readers a pretty good idea of what happened worldwide in a given year. agtx 13:49, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

What's logical for deaths is also logical for events. The only arguments against that so far seems to be Yerpo conjuring up weird notions that people will refuse to populate national event pages, and Arthur's whacko "we need a vote to allow this suggestion to be voted on". Both sound quite desperate to me. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:11, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Actually, deaths are the easier problem to solve, using a combination of RS after the year has passed, as proposed earlier. Events could also work that way, but my idea was to solve deaths first, then talk about events. By the way, ignoring the facts that support the opposing argument and claiming that the argument "weird" is far more desperate than anything I've said. — Yerpo ^Eh? 13:18, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Must be pretty rattled to resort to "no, you are!" repertoire. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

• So, there is clearly not a consensus for this approach. Shall we close it and move on? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:22, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

It wasn't an RfC, though - it was an open discussion to see if a way forward could be fleshed out. Not many people running in from other rooms high-fiving me for the idea but still, it's rather colourful to describe "Arthur Rubin and Yerpo don't like it" as "clearly not a consensus" and kinda weird to insist it be "closed"62.255.118.6 (talk) 13:46, 27 November 2017 (UTC)