Talk:Tugs (TV series)/Archive 1

Interfering with facts

I have noticed recently that this page has been suffering a lot of nonsensical made up rubbish and I have been deleting it on the spot. Please keep a lookout for this kind of fan-fiction being added to the page as it spoils it and states false facts, there were only ever thirteen episodes of TUGS and the wonderful program is being largely discredited by this junk

Fultan or Fulton?

The Ferry in the series - is it spelt Fulton or Fultan - I can't remember!

It is spelt Fultan. Thehalford 05:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Salty's Lighthouse

Hi, I'm Ohyeh, and I'm new here. Will someone please put up a page here about Salty's Lighthouse, the American equivalent to TUGS? I saw the show on two occasions; how it worked was there were these 2D characters in a lighthouse (with the lightbulb as a person with eyes, nose and mouth), and a certain point, they'd look out of the lighthouse and see the tugs from TUGS working in the harbour. I don't remember the series mentioning anything about Captain Star or Captain Zero, but I do know that the tugs had American accents (Ten Cents sounded like a California teenager and Sunshine kind of sounded like Dizzy from Bob the Builder).

I also have a question about a certain episode that I saw on Salty's Lighthouse-I'm not sure if it was Up River or Munitions, but I know that Ten Cents was saying to himself "I'm down in the dumps". I also know that there was some sort of fire on the docks, and at the end of the episode, all of the tugs were covered in soot. Lastly, I remember that warning horns were blown in the episode and that Ten Cents had to save Sunshine for some reason.

There was a section of this article devoted to "Salty's Lighthouse" at one time. I don't know why it was taken down. I can probably restore it from the "History" section, but because it's been taken down once before I don't know if it would stay up for long.

The Clearwater Forums ???

What's happened to the clearwater forums? They've just disappeared....

Clearwater Features Forum was deleted by a Proboards glitch. Big Mac, the admin, quickly set up the New Star Tugs Pier to house the Tugs DVD Campaign. It will take a while to get it back to what Clearwater was, but we're well on our way. :) Thehalford 05:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Episode Guide

I have been editing the episode guide frequently over the last few days such that Regatta/4th of July is the final episode. I stress that the order listed is based off video releases and not what it would logically appear to be. As such, could everyone not change the order in the episode guide until it is verified by a crew member (which seems unlikely) . Thank you. Thehalford 20:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Look, I can understand your point of view - but the problem here lies with irony - the video releases were probably just randomly structured with the episodes the way they were - and as it is quite clear Bigg Freeze was after 4th of July, the link that holds this opinion is Jack the Grappler who is quite clearly welcomed as though he has been in featured in the series before, so surely just relax and use your head!

I thought I was quite relaxed, thank you. I can't say I agree with your point of view though - Jack isn't mentioned by name in Bigg Freeze, just shown as a random crane that happens to be a face. In any event, like I say, the order IS immaterial, but I personally prefer it with Regatta as the last episode is the others remain as is. We could go through each episode and figure it out, but that would hardly be worth the effort. And consider this - is Grampus seen as a Star Sub at any stage? Not to my knowledge, so introducing him as the fnal Star member would also be an appropriate way to end the series. To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I'm certain Regatta IS the final episode. Thehalford 02:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

We could argue about it for days! I guess this is something we'll never know - I remember reading on Bigg City Port website that 'Big Mac' had some taped episodes from when the series was first released - maybe they have transmission dates shown on them somewhere - that could lead to solving it perhaps. I haven't been acknowledged into the new forum yet - but I just wanted to know if you have disovered any new info recently (ie Voice Talent, rights to the series etc.) Regarding the episode list I believe we ought to just list the episodes without official numericals. We know Sunshine's the pilot... and that's just about it!

I know Big Mac quite well as a mate (and as a moderator on the new STP). There was a fairly sizeable discussion on this topic on the old Clearwater as well. There was a lot of info there that caused food for thought - like you say, we could go for ages about this. Nothing new has surfaced recently about the series though, unfortunately... Just on the ep list - probably getting rid of the 'order' proper would be a good idea, although there are some indisputable facts - High Tide before Munitions, Quarantine before ghosts, Trapped before Up River etc. This is one of the things in which we both think we're right but it doesn't much matter. Thehalford 02:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Just wondering if perhaps anyone that was involved with the series who has already been contacted (ie. Chris Tulloch, Shaun Prendergast) would know the correct episode orders etc., mind you there's little hope at that seeing the series is 17 years old now! Maybe there's someone else who can be contacted Foxearth 04:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Photos

Hello theHalford (and anyone else who would be generous to contribute), just wondering, unfortunatly my computer is fairly full on memory, but perhaps a couple of photos would help make the page look nicer (ie the Seven Star Tugs posing in Up River or Ten Cents in the beginning credits with the logo maybe) thankyou. Foxearth 04:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortuantely I don't have any photos available for uploading - nor the know-how. But if you join the Star Tugs Pier forum at http://startugspier.proboards53.com you will see many others who enjoy the series. As for the 'contacting cast members' issue - we have tried, but unfortunately it seems there's little hope. Thehalford 01:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Funny you should say that, I've been awaiting conformation that I can use the forum for around two months... I was a member of the Clearwater Forums originally, it's sheer rudeness that I've not been allowed to join

To be fair, Big Mac has a fair bit on his plate. If you have a issue with the forum, you should email him about it, not whinge on a public forum. I can't allow members in myself - oonly he has that power. f you give me the name you registered as, I'll look into it for you. It's the most I can do. Thehalford 21:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Stopping Vandalism - The thought's just struck me!

I've had an idea, Thehalford - much to our annoyance a certain anonymous user keeps vandalising this page by adding fake episodes and characters - what I suggest is that next time he edits the page, we create a page for this false episode or character to lure him into the page so that he reads our annoyance and give him a warning that he will be blocked. Well what do you think?

It's a tempting idea to be sure. There's an anonymous user posting rubbish on the Thomas the Tank Engine pages as well - there are talk pages for the IP numbers. It'd be a lot easier just to go straight to the source instead of making a fake page just to show our disappointment. And odds are they wouldn't give a stuff anyway... Thehalford 22:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, If you look in Episode Guide (you have to click edit) I've left a message under Bigg Freeze, so next time they try to add a new episode at least they have some message to read - well it's worth a try I suppose. I wonder if this user has actually even seen TUGS, because at the shoddyness of his TTTE-like stories I sincerley doubt it. How's the new Star tug Pier forum coming along by the way? Sorry if I seemed a little whingy before Foxearth 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Saw the message - good stuff :). STP's coming along very slowly, it's difficult to bring it back to what Clearwater was. We're getting there though. It's a long process. Thehalford 22:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought we might have triumphed there - no false edits for four or five days and then suddenly he/she bites back with new false episodes. There is no getting rid of this little toerag I guess... Foxearth 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You'll probably have picked up on this already, but whoever it is that keeps leaving fake episode titles in the guide seems to be convinced that there's an episode called "Ten Cents and the Golden Tunnel." That title keeps getting posted in the episode guide, despite the poster being warned not to do so. Isn't there anything we can do to stop him/her...surely I can't be the only person who is being driven mad by the whole thing?

It's me again, the same person who posted the above comment. This "Ten Cents and the Golden Tunnel" business is getting beyond a joke; whoever keeps posting it just won't give up or accept that it never existed. If you ask me, something needs to be done, and fast.

Expansion on the articles

Hello, figured out how to download photos to the articles! Hopefully this means the TUGS articles can soon be expanded (the character ones at least - so all characters have pics of their own), maube we shoould have some kind of table with the characters, some thing like this for example, if we were to use Ten Cents:

• Name: Ten Cents
• Stack No: 1
• Fleet: Star Fleet
• Vessel Type: Harbour Switcher
• Characteristics: Cheeky, lovable young tug, with little experience. Ten Cents is headstrong and willing to listen. Mainly works with Sunshine.
• Voiced by: Simon Nash (rumoured)

Let me know anyway Foxearth (UTC)

That's a good idea. I think if wedo that for every character it might make the page a bit too long. I'd prefer a new article - something along the lines of 'List of Characters in TUGS' with a picture and a small bit on each of them. I'm certainly not disagreeing though. :) Thehalford 21:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that's a good idea, I created all of the individual character pages when I was a wikipedia novice, and therefore I have since deemed them fairly obscure - I doubt no one looks at them that often (except for the vandalising sod who has so kindly buggered around with the page), therefore I believe (going along with your suggestion) we combine many of them into a much larger article (ala Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends article), with descriptions that were originally on their own individual page (maybe keep Stars and Z-Stacks individual pages, and combine others into: Other Tugs, Barges, Cranes, Liners, Other Vessels, and Other Characters articles). On the main TUGS page we could have info about the stars and Z-stacks, Grampus, Lillie Lightship, Izzy Gomez, Lord Stinker, Fire Tug and the Coast Guard (the most prominant characters throughout the series), who still have their own individual pages with deeper details. I will start finding pics for Ten Cents, and work my way down the list of articles hoping that Bigg City Port on Tripod.com has relevant pics to use! Reply soon anyhow :) Foxearth

Just as an update, Ten Cents, Big Mac, OJ and Top Hat pages all have new pics on them. Sadly, I couldn't get the template I made to work, hopefully a bit of tinkering around should sort it out, however hopefully I can get all relevant pics. Do you think the main page is in need of more photos? Let me know and I'll sort it out Foxearth 12:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I'm a bit late - that looks great! I don't think the main page needs too many photos. Maybe just one of all the stars, one of all the Z-Stacks, something like that. Good work. Thehalford 22:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Ten Cents and the Golden Tunnel

I apologise if this should go in the "stopping vandalism" section, but I think this warrants a section of its own. This "Ten Cents and the Golden Tunnel" business has just gotten out of hand. Whoever is behind it just won't back off and leave the page alone, but continues to endlessly claim that the episode existed when there is no chance that it ever did. Time after time I've had to remove it from the episode guide, and time after time he/she comes back and posts it again. He/she has also been leaving "facts" about the episode in the trivia and location sections of the guide, cluttering them up and making them look a mess. We've tried telling him/her to stop, but they just won't listen to sense. I think this business has gone far beyond all acceptable boundaries, and something needs to be done about it. Any suggestions?

About the only thing that can be done that hasn't been done would be telling them on the talk page of the IP to stop it. Other than that, our hands are pretty much tied, I think. Thehalford 02:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's going to work. He/she has been told not to do it, but they just ignore the warnings and carry on doing it. The only possible solution I can think of is to have them banned, but I don't know if the incident has been serious enough to deserve such a punishment.

The unneccessary, and to this put quite bluntly: completely out of context quotations are a trial and tribulation as well. Tired of deleting them now! Foxearth

American Soundtrack

Hi, I have a question; if by some kind of miracle TUGS gets on DVD, could someone please see if the top dogs of the forum could try to include an American English Soundtrack for the episodes (so that the characters speak Bronx and New Jersy instead of Liverpudlian and Glaswegian)? Not to say that I'm not for authenticity, but I think that some American children might have a little bit of trouble understanding the thick British (even I had trouble when I watched High Tide on YouTube). Thanks a lot!68.151.106.239 21:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)ohyeh

What's wrong with british accents... I'm a broad cockney and my mates here in Australia have no problem understanding me (although they do titter at my rhyming slang). Anyway I was drifting off subject. Ask Thehalford he should have some idea. Foxearth

I didn't mean to offend anybody; the American Soundtrack would be for us North Americans, who need to everything simple so we can understand stuff. The soundtrack wouldn't be on the main menu page or something; it would be a bonus feature, kind of like how some DVD's have Spanish and French soundtracks.ohyeh 22:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm...I think that it would be pretty hard to implement, all things considered. It's an interesting idea, but America has already tried to use US voices in the show (in the abomination that was Salty's Lighthouse :P). I wouldn't be averse to it, but I don't think it would be a likely event if the series gets put on DVD. Thehalford 02:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I knew about Salty's Lighthouse; I considered it because the TUGS episodes on Salty's Lighthouse were like TTTE (really short, like five minutes). On TV.com, I typed in Salty's Lighthouse and found 24 episodes. That's almost twice as many episodes as TUGS, and Salty's Lighthouse just isn't the same (the whole animated stuff with the weird kid and the lighthouse bulb took up most of the episode). Also, the TUGS segments in Salty's Lighthouse were all stock footage from various episodes; for all we know, the American producers may have created all new plotlines, and dumbed the show down which may explain TUGS unpopularity in the US.Ohyeh 16:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it would depend if the US version was done in such a way that they could make the voices synch with the original video without having to edit. I wouldn't mind hearing it for comparison. But "thick British"? Oh dear... (62.69.57.100 22:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC))

I think it's important to remember that although TUGS is dark and mature, it's a children show just like TTTE, Theodore Tugboat, or anything else that you see on YTV or PBS. We might be able to understand the thick accent, but some four-year-olds (forgive me if I sound insulting) might not.ohyeh 11:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

And about the synching and stuff; in my little mind it seems pretty easy to do: mute out the original UK, and with the UK muted record the episode with US voices. TUGS might sound pretty sound with US voices; I can just see OJ with Dean Jones' voice, Alec Baldwin doing Top Hat, George Carlin as Captain Star and Big Mac, Oprah as either The Duchess, Princess Alice, or Vienna...in my opinion it all adds up in American!:)Ohyeh 11:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Another thing important to remember is that Salty's Lighthouse pretty much used stock footage from various episodes, making it possible for several of the thirteen episodes ( High Tide, Munitions, etc) to be sliced, diced and rewritten into another episode with a new plot, giving the American producers the capability to water down and simplify the program. That whole theory, along with the pathetic cartoon plotline, probably explains why TUGS was so unpopular in America. Who wants to see simple 2d cartooning mixed with state-of-the-art RC animation that it so simple it even bores its target audience? In my opinion, TUGS would have been a lot more sucessful in America if the US producers had sticked with the original 13 episodes.Ohyeh 18:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

For more reasons on this, please see the Salty's Lighthouse article. It is greatly expanding, and given information will further my plea for an American Soundtrack of pure TUGS, not that childish garbage of Salty's lighthouse.Ohyeh 16:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Basis of TUGS

The Star fleet was based on tugs of San Francisco waters in 1920. What class of tug are the tugs from the Star Fleet based on? Please upload images to show me. Felix 18:44, 28 July 2006

Is that really absolutely necessary? Foxearth

Yes. I just want to know what class of tugboat the Star Fleet is based on. Please upload the real Star Fleet. Felix 18:46, 30 July 2006

Why/ If it's just for your benefit and nobody else's don't you reckon that's a wee bit selfish? Foxearth

Look. I know the Star Fleet is based on the tugboats from San Francisco, but I don't know what class they're based on. Felix 11:55, 31 July 2006

So? Foxearth

Please upload the images of what class of tugboat the Star tugs are based on. Felix 13:14, 1 August 2006

Well, it's up to you, if you are interested to search for this in your own time, not assume that people will delegate their time to look for you. Sorry if I sound harsh, but that's the way it is. Don't demand from people Foxearth

Questions

It says in the trivia section that at least three Star Tugs, O.J., Top Hat, and Hercules have appeared in TTTE. I know that O.J. appears in Peter Sam and the Refreshment Lady, but what about Top Hat and Hercules? And what happened to Ten Cents, Sunshine, Big Mac, and Warrior? Are they rotting away somewhere?Ohyeh 16:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Top Hat & Hercules, either. I suppose, unless we have core evidence of it, we should delete that.Rusty5 23:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

So, two Z-Stacks, Zebedee and Zip, have appeared in TTTE. They appear in Something in the Air. Also, what happened to Zorran, Zak and Zug? Felix Cheng 21:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I recall Chris Tulloch stating that the models were all put in a closet, so apparently some of them got to Ms. Allcroft. It's also possible that we we see in Thomas is actually based on the Tugs models, but not the originals... Rusty5 23:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that Ten Cents, Sunshine, Big Mac and Warrior are heavily redone and remodelled to portray the tugs from Theodore Tugboat? When you think about it, most of the tugs have the same body features (George looks very much like Top Hat if you eliminate the latter's rising neck)Ohyeh 00:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Related Deletions

Could someone please delete the unneccessary page created by FelixCheng for Lord Stinker, as it is a total waste of time. Also the pages created for John Baddely, Timothy Bateson, Shaun Prendergast, Mike Mulloy and Nigel Anthony (if they are to remain in existence) need to be expanded upon. Thanks. Foxearth (Logged Out)

Season 2

If there would be a Season 2 produced in tugs, maybe Captain Star and Captain Zero will be seen without microphones for the first time and Captain Zero would have two more tugs called Zeus (No. 6) and Zeke (No. 7), so that Captain Zero will have seven tugs as well as Captain Star. Felix 19:40, 10 August 2006

That's fan fiction. Don't fantasize because TUGS has been dead for 16 years, there's no chance of a second series comeback, because it's too obscure a show to get publicity (if say The Herbs or Bagpuss, or other well known shows were being resurrected they're more likely to be recognized). Times have moved on and TUGS has been forgotten, it was a fantastic concept but other programs would overshadow it (ttteaf and theodore tugboat per say). On another note, you've never replied to the messages I sent to your talk page Foxearth

I meant if there were a second season, Captain Zero will have Zeus and Zeke so his Z-Stack Fleet had seven tugs like the Star Fleet. Felix 12:07, 11 August 2006

No they wouldn't. It's fan fiction. Go away for christ's sake you always do this! THERE WILL BE NO SEASON 2. Get used to the idea. Stop fanatasizing and get into the world of reality! Foxearth 01:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey! Please watch your language in this discussion column, Foxearth! I see your point, but we don't have to be profane.Ohyeh 15:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup and Improvement

The current pages are a big improvement on what Tugs had before, but there are some points I'd make.

1. The writing style is often unnecessarily elaborate. For instance, the article on Ten Cents includes the sentence, "He is very much willing to set aside his own safety for the sake of others, but always remains level-headed when undergoing a strategy." I suspect the writer means "undertaking a strategy," which makes far more sense. Another example was when Mighty Moe was described as having a "crane-horse" - it's a hawser. There are countless other instances of language being misused, largely through contributors trying to incorporate words they don't really understand. There's nothing wrong with straightforward language.

2. Why is the series always listed here as "TUGS"? It's not an acronym, shouldn't it just be "Tugs"?

3. "The members of the Clearwater Features Forum are campaigning for TUGS to get out onto DVD. They are doing exceedingly well. But they still need your vote. The main basis of trying to get TUGS on DVD is so that, TUGS will capture the hearts of new children of younger generations, and a program that has long been forgotten would be back in the limelight once more, where it belongs." Wikipedia isn't a soapbox, and should not feature advertising for the campaign. While it can be argued that the campaign is worth a mention, things like "they still need your vote" are entirely unencyclopaedic.

4. A lot of the facts presented in the articles are nothing but speculation. For instance, in the article on Big Mac, that character is identified as Warrior's brother. At no point is this stated anywhere in the television series or any canon (fiction) source. And in nearly every character article, the character is linked with one particular voice artist - even though nobody knows either way which actors voiced most of the characters.

5. "According to sources" appears in a number of articles. This is so vague as to be pointless. Your own mind is technically a source. A guy you met down the pub is a source. Unless you can identify the source, and it's a canon source, what you have there is a rumour, and Wikipedia is not the place for rumours.

Tom

Just performed a major clean-up on the main article to correct as many of the above errors as possible. Tom

The reason for the capitalised TUGS title in most pages is that the word is capitalised in the tugs logo. It would be smart to go by that. --SteelersFan UK06 20:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No it wouldn't. On that basis, we'd talk about HOUSE M.D. and THOMAS THE TANK ENGINE AND FRIENDS. Which we don't. HonestTom 14:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

IMDb lists it as "Tugs". We could always go by that as a standard? --SteelersFan UK06 14:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

UK Transmission order....

Is available at the BFI website: (http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/series/18678)

They are, in reverse order, as follows:

• BIGG FREEZE (27/06/1989)
• UPRIVER (20/06/1989)
• HIGHWINDS (13/06/1989)
• JINXED (06/06/1989)
• GHOSTS (30/05/1989)
• QUARANTINE (23/05/1989)
• HIGH TIDE (16/05/1989)
• WARRIOR (09/05/1989)
• MUNITIONS (02/05/1989)
• REGATTA (25/04/1989)
• TRAPPED (18/04/1989)
• PIRATE (11/04/1989)
• SUNSHINE (04/04/1989)

Gaz C 00:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Episode Listings

I think that the listing of the episodes (and the sub-headings in the first lines of the episode pages themselves) should be listed in italics. I started just going about doing it, then reconsidered and thought i should put the point out across here. Its a minor edit but I think the listing would look better.

I've been a fan of Tugs for as long as I can remember and I've only just found it here. Its great to see so much knowledge and effort being put in to the page. --SteelersFan UK06 19:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Startug possibly sighted in Thomas episode

I was watching "Percy Takes the Plunge" on Youtube, and I noticed that one scene includes a tug that looks suspiciously like something (or someone) from TUGS. The tug had a big fat head (kinda like Warrior or Bluenose), but a little funnel and mast; possibly remastered for Thomas. Can someone please take note of this?Ohyeh 15:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• How could you say "Big Fat Head." T've seen that boat but that boat looks more similar to Sunshine. A picture of it can be found on the Sodo Island Forum. Driveus

Cameo or Minor Appearance?

Ok, so this has been happening for a while now and its starting to REALLY annoy me. I've got most, if not all, TUGS related pages on my watchlist and I every now and again I get an edit saying that someone has changed "Cameo" to "Minor Appearance". Then there will be another edit on the same page changing "Minor Appearance" to "Cameo". Can we PLEASE just set SOME kind of regulation on these pages so that the repeated pointless edits can maybe stop for a while? Then we can use this page as a guideline.

Reply soon! SteelersFan UK06 14:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"Deaths"

Right ok lets get something small cleared up. I've just removed some stupid edit from the main page about "there being a number of deaths in the series". This is NOT true. Yes, the series was a whole lot darker than TTTE. BUT The only thing that comes close to a death in the series was when Krakatoa went and got herself blown to bits thanks to that idiot Bluenose. In this episode, Big Mickey never actually dies. Yeah, he keels over into the water and everything looks a bit lost, BUT I have just found a way to verify that he did infact NOT die. Some very nice person decided to post the original TV footage of TUGS on YouTube (see here, 2:56), in which you can clearly hear Cap'n Star say that "lying in shallow water saved Big Mickey from both fire and explosion" (whatever that means). i think that would be considered evidence that he was ok. Please STOP saying that Big Mickey died, because unless Patrick Allen resurected from the dead to re-record the commentary on that video that's not on the videos, Big Mickey managed to pull through.--SteelersFan UK06 01:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The tramper that rammed Lillie Lightship, in '4th of July' or 'Regatta' (whichever you prefer) surely died, having sunk straightaway. As does thr cargo ship in 'Trapped' which Billy Shoepack blows apart. Also everyone on board the Fultan Ferry, which OJ holes below the waterline and sinks in 30 seconds in an episode whose name I forget. Overall, the series is quite 'dark' and episodes like Munitions, Ghosts and Regatta can actually be quite frightening for younger kids.

However, this has to be balanced against the good moral message which the series does promote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.237.25.210 (talk)

I think they tried to put across that there weren't any people on the Futon - in another one of these "everything is controlled without the intervention of humans" things (Like in Thomas). Thank you for your response though. --SteelersFan UK06 22:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)