Talk:List of airports in the State of Palestine

About Palestine

Since Palestine is now recognized internationally as it's own Nation, and not as a group of Isreali territories, I would like to reverse the redirect, so that it is more accurate, and coincides with the recent UN decisions. If there are no objections, and I don't see why there should be, I will move the content to List of airports in Palestine (which is presently redirecting to here) and redirect this page to there. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 22:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

By the same standard the vast majority of our "Palestinian territories" pages should be moved to "Palestine" titles so if you want to do this I would suggest starting a Mass RM of those pages. Here's a list of those pages: All pages with titles containing the Palestinian territories.

Unless there is some reason for this page to differ from those others I would strongly object to that move. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:43, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I apologize. Sometimes the written word does not translate very well. It seems to me that since the International community now recognizes Palestine as an independent state, that it would be more accurate for the info to be placed under that appropriate heading, rather than as a group of territories belonging to Isreal. I hope that ssems to make more sense. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 22:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Why this page in particular rather then the other "Palestinian territories" pages such as Economy of the Palestinian territories, Tourism in the Palestinian territories, Communications in the Palestinian territories, Demographics of the Palestinian territories, etc. Your logic would apply just as much to those other pages as it would to this one so, unless I'm missing something here, you should probably start a mass RM. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:04, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

It's possible that some of those should be changed as well, but I really would not know. I am only concerned with this page. I created the other list while working through a list of requested articles and removing redlinks. In the middle of that work, this list was found, and so we redirected that list over to here. However, it has occurred to me that the title of this list is no longer appropriate, and it seemed that the most prudent and encyclopedic thing to do was reverse the re-direct. if there is some logical reason not to do so, let me know, but it seems to me that the most up-to-date title for the article is the one that we should use. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 23:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

With the possible exception of the "years in" articles, The titles of most of the other "Palestinian territories" pages are just as appropriate or inappropriate as the title of this page for the same reasons. There's no reason to move this page but not to move other pages such as Economy of the Palestinian territories and to only move this page would make it's title inconsistent with those other pages. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about other articles, they do not concern me. If you think they are inappropriately named, as this one is, then by all means I encourage you to open a dialogue on those talk pages as I have done here. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 00:11, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

You could start an RM for just this article, but I would strongly oppose moving this page unless the other PT pages were moved as well. Best to keep the titles consistent in my opinion. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• I understand your concern, but to my best understanding the most sourced designation is "List of airports in the Palestinian National Authority" [1]; but since the recent change in the UN, it should be "List of airports in the State of Palestine", because the Palestinians themselves use the term "State of Palestine" for self-designation, rather than just Palestine.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

First of all Greyshark was invited here not that I really object to that, but keep that in mind when determining consensus.

Secondly That source calls the West Bank and Gaza Strip "Palestinian National Authority", so what. That like finding a source that talks about airports in "America" and using that as an argument to move List of airports in the United States to "List of airports in America", or maybe the source would say "American Airports" and then we could really ignore our naming conventions and rename that article "List of American Airports". Your source and my hypothetical source simply don't use the same naming conventions as Wikipedia. Some sources will use "United States" to refer to the United States, others will use "America" or "United States of America". Some sources will use "Palestinian territories" to refer to the West Bank and Gaza strip, others will use "Palestinian Administered Territories", or "Palestinian National Authority", "State of Palestine", "Palestine", "Israeli-occupied territories", etc.

The arguments here are WP:LOCALCONSENSUS arguments. There is no reason to to treat this page any differently then other pages such as Economy of the Palestinian territories, Tourism in the Palestinian territories, etc. After there is conciseness to move these types of pages to a "State of Palestine" or "Palestine" titles, then we can move this page, but not before. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

More accurately, it's more akin to somebody wanting to move a hypothetical list of "List of Seaports in the Colonies" to "List of Seaports in the United States." The goal here is to update an antiquated and wholly innacurate title. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 01:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Then my humble suggestion is to move this page to List of airports in the State of Palestine, and have all of these other search options forward to that article, for simplicity's sake. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 01:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Just don't do it without making an RM. I would strongly object to moving this page without using the RM process, but make an RM and I'll be happy. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

It's none of my business of course, but may I inquire as to why you feel so strongly opposed to having a correct and updated title for a list of four airports? I just did a google search, and there are over 200 Wikipedia articles which assign the use of the term "State of Palestine", just as User:Greyshark09 has indicated. I originally thought that the simple term "Palestine" was correct, but it is clear that the consensus lies squarely with "State of Palestine". There seems to be no consensus in favor of continuing using "Palestinian Territories" as the term is now outdated. In fact is there any reason not to point this article to the proper name of the State, other than there are a few articles that haven't gotten around to doing so yet? (Or maybe I am completely off base here, I am human afterall.) --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 02:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion is that the UN vote makes the term "Palestinian territories" outdated, but as far as I know it is just that, your opinion. Weather the UN vote means that we should stop using "Palestinian territories" in our topic articles had not been demented, no one has started a centralized discussion about that. Like I said, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS at this page can not override the precedent of other slimmer articles such as Economy of the Palestinian territories, Tourism in the Palestinian territories, Communications in the Palestinian territories, Demographics of the Palestinian territories, there is no reason to treat this page differently then most of the other PT pages. Also very few topic pages use "State of Palestine" in their title, see All pages with titles containing the State of Palestine. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

My opinion is that oPt/Pt concept was coined after 1967 war and was mostly relevant until 1993 (creation of PNA), however many organizations continued to use oPt/Pt for some time because of the unclear situation (PNA was an autonomy, not a state and didn't have clear borders). In the past years however it seems that PNA term became the preferred title, relating as Pt/Pct to "Palestinian-controlled territories" (PNA areas A,B) rather than oPt/Pt "Occupied Palestinian territories". With the UN vote last month, it is not clear what are the consequences yet, but it seems there is a Palestinian tendency to exchange PNA usage with SoP (early to know for sure). In any case, the Palestinian territories now can be many things Pt/oPt/Pct, so it is an unclear geographic definition to prefer it over actual entities, whose borders you can more or less map out.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

To quote Nableezy "The [occupied] Palestinian territories (and the UNSC repeatedly has referred to the oPt, and multiple UN agencies refer to the oPt, see for example OCHA oPt) are the West Bank (in its entirety), including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. The area under control of the PNA is not that. The claim that the Pt term today is widely implemented not to the entire WB and GS, but specifically to the areas under PNA control is completely unsupported and easily refuted. See for example this, or this, or this. The UN uses the term all the time, the idea that it doesnt is pure fiction. So does most of the world, and so do an overwhelming number of sources."

To quote Dlv999: "There is nothing vague or dubious about the term Palestinian Territories. It is a well defined and commonly used term used to describe Gaza and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem).

Palestinian Territories is the name used to refer to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip by International media organizations [2], [3], in academic literature [4], by the UN[5], [6], EU [7], individual Governments such as the UK[8] and US[9], international human rights organizations [10], [11], the International Court of Justice [12], and the International committee of the Red Cross [13] among others.

Unless you provide evidence to support your assertions all you are giving us is your personal opinion, which does not carry much weight."

To quote Sean.hoyland: "[C]ountless sources refer to [the West Bank and Gaza Strip] simply and unambiguously as the Palestinian territories, with or without the "occupied". It's very clear what the Palestinian territories means because it is defined by the green line that separates Israel from not-Israel."

From Palestinian territories: "The Palestinian territories comprise the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip". If you dispute that, and think that it often only refers to just Areas A and B take it to Talk:Palestinian territories. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:04, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Also your airport source and sources such as the Polish one (see it's map), and the dictionary (it's second definition) seem to use the praise "Palestinian National Authority" to refer to the whole West Bank and Gaza Strip, not just Area's A and B. Ouvesly the Palestinian National Authority (the administrative organization) does not control area C, but it would seem that your opinion that the term "Palestinian National Authority" (when referring to a physical territory) refers only to Area's A and B is incorrect. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Palestinian territories is much more problematic - some say "Palestine/Palestinian territory" to refer to whole Palestine (region), some use "oPt" for roughly West Bank and Gaza Strip, other use "Palestinian controlled territory" to refer to areas A and B, controlled by the PNA. Which is it then?Greyshark09 (talk) 22:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

According to those sources Nableezy and Dlv999 found, and our Palestinian territories article, "Palestinian territories" means "the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip". If you dispute that take it to Talk:Palestinian territories. I don't know about "Palestinian controlled territory" (I would think that would refer to ares A ans B tough) but I have never seen the praise "Palestinian territories" used to refer to Palestine (region). Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:24, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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Move discussion in progress

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