Talk:Fortress of Klis/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: –– Jezhotwells (talk) 08:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

First Impressions:

• This looks to be an interesting and well researched article.
• The Lead should be a maximum of four paragraphs according to WP:LEAD.
• There are a few prose issues, which I shall highlight as I go through in more thorough detail. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 09:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   The Klis Fortress (Croatian: Tvrđava Klis) is a medieval fortress situated above a village bearing the same name, near the city of Split, in central Dalmatia, Croatia. Drop the initial The.

   From a small stronghold built by the ancient Illyrian tribe Dalmatae, a royal castle that was the seat of many Croatian kings, to a large fortress during the Ottoman wars in Europe, Klis Fortress has guarded the frontier, being lost and re-conquered several times throughout its more than two thousand year-long history. Very clumsy, appeasr to be a poor translation from Croatian. Needs splitting into separate sentences for clarity.

   Mostly due to its location on a pass that separates the mountains Mosor and Kozjak, the fortress served as a major source of defense in Dalmatia, especially against the Ottoman advance, and has been a key crossroads between the Mediterranean belt and the Balkan rear. - MOstly duie to?

   Since Prince Mislav of Littoral Croatia made Klis Fortress a seat to his throne in the middle of 9th century, the fortress has served as the seat of many Croatia's rulers. The reign of his successor, Duke Trpimir I, from the House of Trpimirović, is significant for spreading Christianity, as he built a fortress, a church and the first Benedictine monastery in Croatia in Rižinice under Klis. Again poor grammar and use of tense.

   In March 1242, at Klis Fortress, Tatars under the leadership of Kadan suffered a major defeat, while in pursuit of a Hungarian army led by King Béla IV of Hungary. After failure against Croatian soldiers, Mongols retreated and Béla IV rewarded Croatian towns and nobility with a substantial amount of riches. Are we talking about two separate campaigns here? Or are teh Tatars and the Mongols the same?

   During the Late Middle Ages the fortress was governed by Croatian nobility, from which Paul I Šubić of Bribir was the most significant one. During his reign, the House of Šubić controlled most of modern-day Croatia and Bosnia. Excluding the brief possession by the forces of Bosnian King Tvrtko I, the fortress remained in Hungaro-Croatian hands for the next several hundred years, until the 16th century. - Oh dear this gets worse. You are going to have to find someone to copy-edit the whole artcile if it is all like this.

   And it is. OK, I could fail this right now for poor grammar. This is not "reasonably good prose" by any strecth of the imagination. See if you can get any help for the Croatia WikiProject or from the WP:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors

   The final sentence of the Lead and the section Klis Fortress today read like a tourist brochure, overly promotional. Drop the stuff about ticket prices, this kind of information dates rapidly and is unnecessary in an encyclopaedia.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Ref #16 [1] Encarta, archived at WebCite returns a 404 error. Unfortunately the WebCite service is no longer available. And this cannot be found at the Internet Archive.

   Ref #2 [2] is not a reliable source.

   Ref #33 [3] is not a reliable source

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Slightly promotionl atone in places

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Right the whole article needs a comprehensive and thorough copy edit to turn it into good readable prose. If this cannot be done in seven day, then I will not be listing it. If the nominator knows that they cannot get this dione in seven days, pleae say so, so that no-one's time is wasted. On hold for seven days. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 11:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

   OK, I have gone through the article line by line and cleaned it up to a standard that sufficiently satisfies Crireia 1.1 "reasonably good prose". I removed some redundancies and repetition, as well as editing for grammar and style. Please remember to get articles copy-edited before nominating at WP:GAN in future. I am now happy to pass this as a Good (and interesting) Article. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply to a reviewer

Thank you Jezhotwells for a GA Review of Klis Fortress. I will try to improve the article within seven day, as you asked. The main problem is copy edit, as you said. I already did my best regarding to articulate English and prose, so I will ask for some help from other editors, in order to turn it into good readable prose. Regarding other issues, I hope you will help me solve them the best you can. So, here they are:

• Should I completely remove the final sentence of the Lead?

That is not necessary, I see that you have incorporated it into the preceding paragraph.

• Should I completely remove the section Klis Fortress today, or try to integrate some facts about the armor museum into section Architecture?

Again, not necessary, but the tone is rather promotional - like a guidebook, which is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. Here is a suggestion: "The Klis Fortress has been developed as a visitor attraction by the "Kliški uskoci" re-enactment association in Klis with the aid of the conservation department of the Ministry of Culture in Split. Visitors to the historic military structure can see an array of arms, armor and traditional uniforms in building which once formed an Austrian armory. " ref [4]

• As for point 2. (It is factually accurate and verifiable); I will replace Encarta reference with other one, and other two reference which are not reliable source won't be needed if we are going to delete section Klis Fortress today.

See above I found another refrence for you.

• Can you pinpoint some things which you consider slightly promotional, or this is applied to the final sentence of the Lead and the section Klis Fortress today?

Answered above

Again, thank you for your GA Review, and if you notice some other things that can be improved, please tell. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 15:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Architecture

I did a quick copyedit of the architecture section. Hope I understood all correctly. If not, feel free to revert. I find this section relatively brief compared to the history section, which is maybe not an issue for GA but if you have more information regarding the buildings within the fortress (as presented in the annotated illustration), would be a gain for the article. --Elekhh (talk) 08:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Elekhh for your copyedit of the architecture section. Yes, architecture section seems to be relatively brief compared to the history section, but history section goes back to time Before Christ. Anyway, I think that I can found more information regarding the buildings within the fortress, but only on the Croatian language, which means that I will have to translate it first. Unfortunately, I can't manage that within next seven days. But, If you are interested, after the article passes GA Review (which I hope), I will write addition to architecture section here, on this talk page. So, you can copyedited it, and put it into the article. Although, buildings within the fortress don't have great arhitecture value. But the foreress itself as a comprehensive structure barely discemable as a man-made building, although it was built as a massive stone structure. Kebeta (talk) 11:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I am happy to help in the future as well, and who knows, maybe at FA one day. --Elekhh (talk) 12:02, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Copyediting

As far as I understood reviewer-Jezhotwells, all problems regarding points 2.,3.,4.,5.,6., are now solved. The remaining issue that is left is point 1. (It is reasonably well written). I made some minor changes for better clarification, so that other users who are willing to help, can copyedit much easer. (BTW, It is all one campaign-Tatars were subjugated by the Mongol Empire). Since I wan't be back till Tuesday or Wednesday, feel free to ask any possible questions here, or adress them to GregorB. He is familiar with the subject, and willing to help. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 15:38, 3 April 2010 (UTC)