Talk:Gülüstan, Goranboy

Gülüstan vs. Gulistan

Hi, everyone.

The town of Gulistan is, self-evidently, the namesake of the Treaty of Gulistan; however, the city is also known as both Gülüstan (Azeri Turkish name) Gyulistan (Russian and new Armenian name) and Giwlistan (transliteration of the old Armenian name). Would it not make sense to simply refer to this settlement as Gulistan, which is the Anglicized name, as well as WP:COMMONNAME?

I specifically intended to discuss this with you, @Parishan:, but I don't want this to become an out-of-control interaction without a consensus like on Kanach Zham for instance. I saw that you moved the page by virtue of WP:MODERNNAME, which I find somewhat bizarre, considering that such a Wikipedia guideline does not exist. Nevertheless, I would like to reach some sort of consensus on what I believe to be the unnecessary "semantic nativism" of city names. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 20:27, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I meant to refer to WP:MODERNPLACENAME, sorry for the confusion.

First of all, the treaty was signed at the fortress, which is not the same as the modern-day village of Gülüstan. Second of all, names of treaties, etc. often feature archaic toponymy because they are historical names in their own right, whose constituents do not automatically extend to modern settlements. We will not move Volgograd under Stalingrad because of the Battle of Stalingrad.

Also, could you please explain this move? What do you mean by "insightful" and what determines the insight considering that this village was never located in Nagorno-Karabakh? Parishan (talk) 00:49, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing up my initial conclusion.

My rationale for making the move was that Gulistan instead of "Gülüstan" made as much sense as Baku, Sumgait, and Ganja replacing Bakı, Sumqayıt, and Gəncə. I personally hold the view that Gulistan deserves more exposure for its fortress being the namesake of a very important treaty involving two (former) superpowers, and including its rayon seemed superfluous to me; think of a formulation like "Ordubad, Ordubad Rayon" or "Shusha, Shusha Rayon".

You are correct, I falsely believed Gulistan to be part of the NKAO. I had in mind the Soviet Shahumyan district and subdistrict, which was populated by Armenians prior to Operation Ring.

Republic_of_Artsakh#/media/File:Republic_of_Artsakh_(orthographic_projection).svg and Shahumyan_Province#/media/File:Shaumyan_n_Getashen_EN.png made me think the settlement was part of the NKAO.

This move is frankly not very dear to me, but "Gülüstan, Goranboy" diminishes the village's importance in my view. Something like "Gülüstan, Karabakh" is more dignifying than the addition of the rayon in the name. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 01:07, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Baku and Ganja are large cities with established English names, unlike Gülüstan. It is not a good idea to force a spelling upon a place that has no common English name because of a nearby landmark.

How does it "diminish" the village's importance? Putting the name of the administrative unit after a comma is the usual way of disambiguating placenames on Wikipedia, see Springfield or Yenikend. The Goranboy District is not even in Karabakh. Parishan (talk) 01:16, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Name moved

@Parishan: May I ask why you moved the article of Gulistan to Gülüstan? You cited WP:MODERNPLACENAME so is the move because the Azerbaijani government uses the name "Gülüstan" instead of Gulistan and that the locals in the village call it Gülüstan? KhndzorUtogh (talk) 10:59, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

But why was this article moved to the present title without any discussion? This location is not in Nagorno-Karabakh, so the present name is wrong. Grandmaster 16:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Grandmaster, this location housed a lot of Armenians and IIRC was one of the most important villages in Shahumyan, loads of Armenians were ethnically cleansed from here. Should I move Khojaly to Ivanyan without a discussion? Those who live there call it Ivanyan, not Khojaly and the authorities that govern the area call it Ivanyan. Also, the same Parishan created an entire investigation on me a couple of months ago for moving around 4 small exclusively Armenian populated villages in Nagorno-Karabakh without a discussion, so it feels a bit hypocritical of him to do what he himself condemned. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:21, 26 June 2021 (UTC)