Talk:Dick Grayson/Archive 1

This archive page covers approximately the dates in April 2006

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Please add new archivals to Talk:Dick Grayson/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 15:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro

All the superhero bio's sum up the influence/importance of the character to the comicbook medium and Nightwings article should be no different. Right now it reads very dry, uninteresting and doesn't acknowledge the massive popularity/cultural siginificance of Dick Grayson. When Dick was Robin(for 50plus years) he crystalized and popularized one of comicdom's most imminent persona's: ROBIN. This has to be mentioned in the intro paragrapgh, the fact he no longer is Robin makes no difference becuase WHILE he was Robin he "created one of comicdom's most popular and important characters" plus as far as anyone is concerned Dick is responisble for the creation and popularization of the character in mainstream culture and it directly relates to him breaking out and becoming Nightwing. -- 63.138.87.171

Yeah but can you do it without sounding NPOV? Cause it's coming off as a bit of a fan love, which while I agree in part Grayson is the bomb, this is an encyclopedia, and factual trumps worship. "becoming one of comicdom's most important and popular characters." Most important? Is that quantifiable? Also, I think you can keep the emancipation shorter intro in, since it's related in the ToC/History about how he became Nightwing. The Superman angle is important, IMO, because it shows how Dick is influenced by other heros, and not just Batman. -- Ipstenu 14:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree, superman and batman were the inspiration for Grayson's heroic career, that's a fact. The robin popularity sounds only like fan love - Neodammerung 21:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, read the opening paragrapgh of any superhero page(Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman etc etc...) and you get what I mean by summing up of the importance of the character. You can't forget that while Dick was Robin he became one of comicdom's most recognizable heros and this needs to be mentioned. How about just mentioning "becoming one of comicdom's most iconic characters."

Also, I disagree about the Superman nod, its not so important that it needs to be recognized in the opening paragraph. All we need to do is sum up that Dick grew out of the Robin persona to become his own crime-fighter(ie Nightwing) so the layman who comes across the page can easily identify him.

Disagree, Superman, at least the Earth-1 Superman, is Nightwing I, the history of DC-hero Nightwing starts with Superman. This is an encyclopedia and a comic book produced in 1963 is just as relevant as one produced in 2005. ThW5 12:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Dick Grayson was the definitive sidekick. Yes, that's worth noting. But "importance" is subjective. "Most widely recognized" perhaps? D1Puck1T 18:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that Dick is Nightwing III (after Kal-el and Van-zee in Kandor, not counting alternative realities). The complete lack of mentioning of Van-Zee in the intoduction is in my estimation rather serious and harming the encyclopedic nature of the article. Maybe we should add a picture of a Kryptonian nightwing? Nightwing I, II and III should get equal representation in the introduction. ThW5 12:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

This article is for Dick Grayson, but I agree with you. We should move this to "Dick Grayson" and use the "Nightwing" page for all the others nightwings, specially now that we are giving more importance to the robin persona. - Neodammerung 13:11, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Dick Grayson is the offical creator of the NIGHTWING persona as a crime-fighting superhero just like Bruce created Batman. Why doesn't the Batman page say that Batman is a persona used by many different people in different continuties? (ie Dick Grayson, Jean Paul, Tim Drake(future) etc..) The reason is because we don't need to mention obscure uses of the name by other characters in other continuities IN the opening pargrpagh, at least. In the detailed bio, yes we can mention other people who inspired the character but NOT in the opening it really muddles the article and confused the layman who comes across the page. colossus34 13:11, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Fine, but whomever did the edit, didn't move the info, they cut it out. I switched your intro around to still give some homage to the 'other Nightwings' comment, since frankly the article is 'Nightwing' and not 'Dick Grayson.' As such, we have to mention it. Then I added in a 'Other Nightwings in the DCU' section to try and stem the tide. Frankly, We should renamed this 'Dick Grayson' and give Nightwing it's own disambig page. Nightwing (Dick Grayson), Nightwing (Jason Todd), Nightwing (Kryptonian)? Uuugh. The Batman correlation isn't a good example. Look at Superboy for a better one, since there are three (?) valid holders of the title - Kal-L, Superboy-Prime, and Kon-El. -- Ipstenu 19:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm vehemently opposed to splintering Nightwing from Dick Grayson just to mention a few minor instances in 100 years in other continuities where other people have used the name of Nightwing. In case your wondering the codename Colussus has been used by 6 to 7 people in the entire Marvel universe including other continuities and neither of them warrant importance to discredit the main creator of the persona(peter Rasputin) since he has been the most popular person to carry the identity.

What we are doing is discrediting the persona that Grayson created and it will further confuse the casual fans who are looking to research and learn more about Dick Grayson. He has been the only significant person to have the Nightwing persona(he created it) and the splintering of his superheroic identity only further cements to distance him from both the Robin persona and now his current identity!!

Why not have a small bottom section in the Dick Grayson article that casually mentions the other minor/insignificant characters who have borrowed or used the codename? That's my compromise...

He didn't create the nightwing persona, he only adopted it. Besides, this guy was Robin for some 40 or 50 years, so "Nightwing" as the article name is obviously wrong. - Neodammerung 00:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I direct the attention of all concerned towards the articles Flash and Green Lantern, two other aliases that multiple individuals assumed at various points. In each article, there are links to sub articles, for example within Flash there are links to Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West. In this way, it makes the overall composition structurally sound. Netkinetic 04:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

WRONG Dick did create the Nightwing persona. That's what people aren't getting...Superman flying around in a jet pack and black tights shares only one thing with Dick/Nightwing and that's a simple codename. This is what I want to clarify. Nightwing is not some mantle like Flash or Green Lantern that is passed on from one generation to the next. Dick created it and was simply inspired to use a codename from a millenia old legend. That is all we need to mention.

Why is it that when a person searchs for Batman they don't get forwared to a massive page with links to Dick Grayson, Terry McGinnies, Jean Paul Valley? All of these people have held the title of Batman before? Well guess what I can also name several individuals who share similiar codenames and live in the same universe's and aren't labeled as the same superheroic identities(there are like 5 Colossus characters, 4 Things, several in continuity characters have EVEN used the codename Spider-Man). We'd have several thousand unnessary splinter pages if we did this for every comic character who shared a name or we're inspired by one-another or similar character. - Colossus34 00:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

In case your wondering I am very dissapointed that the Dick grayson and nightwing page was splintered without first a thourough discussion, several options analyzed and then a consensus vote that is approved. That is why I reverted the page until all dissenting voices are heard. Click here for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_hold_a_consensus_vote

You are wrong, and the only person who is against this is you. I recommend you to read some history about the character before posting your opinions. Dick didn't create the Nightwing persona, he used the name as inspiration. Not to mention that he was the first and most iconic Robin - Neodammerung 11:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Let's calm down a little and not accuse each other. It's pretty apparent we all want this to be the best representation if Dick Grayson, be he Nightwing, Robin, or whatever he'll become in the future. As was mentioned, it's common practice in the DCU to have multiple heros with the same name, and on those pages (Flash, GL) they have a summary of who the name-bearers are. With the current 'Two Nightwings!' world, this is only going to get more confusing, and a disambiguation-esque page isn't harming things. I'm sure users are clever enough to read down to the Nightwing they're looking for. If the other Robins (Tim and Jason) have pages to their 'real' name, Dick should too. It just fits in. Batman and Superman are different (adn I would argue so is Colossus), because if you ask anyone on the street who they are, they'll say 'Bruce Wayne! Clark Kent! Peter Rasputin!'. Those identities have remained solidly attached to those personaes for pretty much the entire creation of the character. In the case of Nightwing, this simply isn't so. Goldenage/Superman fans deserve as much respect as the current Grayson fans, and this feels like a fair way to give it to them. PS: Please sign your posts :) -- Ipstenu 13:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Skills/Abilities

In the DC ENCYLOCPEDIA it's clearly stated "Nightwing's Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only to Batman" Which is a huge compliment since Dick, agewise is even younger than Bruce was in Year One when he first donnned the cape and cowl!! I'd say Nightwing is equal to Dardevil in Martial Arts abilities which is why he's just a notch below Bruce. Dick is still in the top five Martial Artists in the entire DC universe.

If you disagree then give feats/examples?

---

No disagreement with the exact wording ("Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only") since it could be taken to mean that he is second place in that combination of skills. That exact sentence should stay. However, unless I am missing an event, Nightwing has never beaten or tied with any of the top contenders for the #1 position. In fact, Nightwing was defeated by a martial artist that was in turn defeated by Connor Hawke. And Connor Hawke has been defeated by Lady Shiva and Constantine Drakon. And Lady Shiva has been taken out by Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain (although Shiva's beaten them both at times). Nightwing is one of the best in the world, but I've yet to see anything in the comics to validate calling him a contender for the top position.

I don't think that Dick Grayson is among the top 5 martial artist in the DCU, because we have Shiva, Cassandra Cain (who is dead, but may be returning), Batman, Constantine Drakon, Connor Hawke, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger. Is pretty sure that Nightwing is among the top 10, but no way he is one of the five greatest.

--Kidfried 03:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Dick is clearly the world's greatest acrobat, and might very well be in the top 5 martial artists some day. But he's been shown too often (even in his own book) losing to or struggling with martial artists that aren't in the top 5. He's maybe in the second tier, with the likes of Wildcat (nothing to be sneezed at), but he's not, as someone said, a "contender" for the number one position just yet. D1Puck1T 09:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

SORRY PUCK BUT NO ONE EVER SAID DICK WAS NUMBER ONE!! But he is clearly listed as being "second only to Batman" and a "master detective and martial artist" and been trained in all the mentioned combat discplines. No need to mention in skills/abilities about the battles he's lost and won because thats not what an encylopia is supposed to do. Just read anyother hero bio.

Also, what your problem is your going by low end showings and not HIGH end showings where he's proven more than a match for a meta like Slade and pinned Shiva down in one of his earliest appearences. colossus34 09:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

In what issue did u see Nightwing pin down Lady Shiva?

I don't want this to become a fanboy argument about who is the best fighter in the world. Wikipedia is not a message board. The problem I have with seeing him listed as "number two" is that to be number two you're a contender for number one. And I've never seen anything to make me think he is. I have seen him being taken out with one kick from a distracted Lady Shiva. But like you said, you can't just go by his worst day. But you can't ignore it either.

Is there a compromise we could put in? Mention what the DC Encyclopedia states, but say there's debate to its validity due to his losses in the books?D1Puck1T 17:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this shouldn't be a fanboy argument, lets just state what DC has him listed as, "second to batman in Detective and martial arts skills" which implies that he's just a notch below Bats(who himself is below Shiva, Cassandra, Dragon etc) therfore Dick is obviously not a contender for number #1, since its not stated.

Also, theres no contraversy to mention because what happens in every single issue of a comic is often at odds, depending on the writer. One issue Batman is stalemating Shiva and the next issue he has a tough time in hand to hand combat against Two-Face or Riddler. Still, we accept that Batman is a great fighter but just "jobbing" to his villians. Its not something that needs to be mentioned in every single superheros bio. colossus34 18:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

"Second to Batman" sounds like a perfect compromise to me. And I agree that nobody should be judged by how they did on their worst day. We've seen Catwoman take out Black Mask in one page, but Batman ends up stuggling with the guy. Whatever. Power levels are going to vary with the writer's needs; that's comics for you. I'm just saying that no writer I know of has ever shown him holding his own against Richard Dragon, Batgirl, Shiva, or Bronze Tiger, so it seems a bit premature to be saying "second only to Batman" (especially with ongoing debate as to how well Batman matches up to those fighters). But "Second to Batman" is a nice way to address all that without making the article messy.D1Puck1T 23:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to start an edit war, but ... With the 'second to Batman' agreement (and I agree with it too), we have a couple users who keep putting the information back to a less objective version. Nightwing99 and 216.36.3.15 don't seem to read the talk page NOR do they read the comments other people put in their edit summary. I'm assuming good faith, but they're obviously not RTFM'ing or they don't care, and either way it's starting to be an every day occurrence. What's the preferred method of handling this, other than to keep reverting them? (I did leave a note in Nightwing99's talk page, but it doesn't seem to have been read. -- Ipstenu 15:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, can't we have wikipedia ban them from editing on the site? It's a shame because I'm sure they have contributed some valuable information to the page but I think the clear-minded and reasonable members who are actually willing to discuss changes/edits outnumber those few trolls that keep coming back and refuse to listen or have an open discussion about a topic. We may have to face the facts that while what makes wiki so great(ie the ability to drawn on the collective knowledge of many people) we're also have to put up with trolls who want to defame and damage the site. -- Colossus34 17:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Nightwing99 is a troll, I think he's just determined. And he's also made the same edit 4 times today. I'm reporting this on the 3RR page. Not happy about it. -- Ipstenu 20:16, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Did you look at his contribution history for the month of march? This guy/girl has edited the (→Skills and abilities) section over 400 times in the month of March alone and every single time it needs to be reverted back! To top if off the user refuses to cite sources or discuss why they're making the changes. If that's not a blatant example of someone that needs to be banned then I don't know what is. -- Colossus34 20:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC

I guess I'm having too much good faith? I'd label it a troll if all the edits were something like 'Dick is gay!' or what have you. This is pretty 'pro Nightwing' and looks like an over-exuberant fan. As I are one too, I have more empathy than I general do for knobs who can't read. I suspect the 3RR req will be dismissed, so if you want to submit him for a temp banning till he grows up, I don't disagree. -- Ipstenu 03:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Jeet Kune Do?

Can anyone give a source for this Jeet Kune Do stuff? I don't know about martial arts, but i think escrima is a more used discipline. - Neodammerung 21:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Move to "Dick Grayson"?

Should we move this article to "Dick Grayson" and make "Nightwing" a redirect? There are plenty of reasons to do it: 1 - This article is an extensive biography of Dick in all of his crime fighting secret identities, not just Nightwing, and we have no way of knowing for sure if Dick will still be Nightwing after "One Year Later...". 2 - It seems odd to discuss Burt Ward, Chris O'Donnell, Earth-Two Dick Grayson and All-Star Dick Grayson in an article titled "Nightwing", since none of them ever wore Nightwing's costume. 3 - "Dick Grayson" is a more universal title, which covers all facets of his life, and is a name known by virtually anyone with decent amount of Batman knowledge, even more than "Nightwing". If you hadn't picked up a comic book for 25 years, you wouldn't know who Nightwing is, but sure as hell you'd know who Dick is.

I think Nightwing should remain a redirect for the time being, and everything about Superman's brief Pre-Crisis stint as Nightwing should remain here for context, but if there's a new Nigthtwing after "One Year Later...", it might be necessary to make "Nightwing" (much like "Robin") a brief article talking about the origins of the superhero identity (which in this case are Kryptonian), and directing to the articles about the different people who have fought crime under it at different times (Dick Grayson, the potential future Nightwing, and Superman in Pre-Crisis continuity). --Ace ETP 20:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

There doesn´t seem to be any negative response to my idea of change this article's name to "Dick Grayson" yet...I'll wait a few more days and if there's still none I'll try to change it myself, and make "Nightwing" a redirect (which will be hard as I've never done a redirect)... --Ace ETP 19:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, the persona of Nightwing is as much Dick Grayson's as Batman is Bruce Waynes. Is there a seperate page on the Batman persona and all who have doned the cape and cowl(Dick, Azreal, etc)? Of course not!!! And Superman's brief pre-crisis stint using the name is insignicant when you consider Dick created the persona of Nightwing as his own so even if someone steps into his shoes briefly after OYL(which I doubt) I think this your idea is premature.

Perhaps you're right, but I don't see why the guy slated to write the new Nightwing series after OYL is remaining tight-lipped about having someone else taking over the identity unless he actually plans to do so. --Ace ETP 18:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

An interview at Newsarama with the editor of the Outsiders has confirmed at least one Nightwing post-IC is Dick Grayson, though it also gives indication that there's another Nightwing. --User:driscolj 01:09, 17 Feburary 2006 (UTC)

The persona of Nightwing might be Dick Grayson's, but Dick Grayson is more than the Nightwing persona. Like Ace ETP said, it's kind of weird that the Burt Ward Robin is listed under "Nightwing". Having said that, I don't feel very strongly about it.

Incidentally, current indications seem to be that there'll be three Nightwings One Year Later: Dick, Jason (based on Dick) and Kara Zor-El (based on the pre-Crisis Kandor version). Daibhid C 23:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I vote for waiting. Obviously they want our heads to explode. Why don't we just wait and see what happens in OYL to decide. Frankly I think there should be a split in the Batman page, or at least a 'other Nightwings' section/page but we don't know what will happen yet. Either it'll all change and someone (Jason Todd?) will be Nightwing or nothing will change. -- Ipstenu 02:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Given the fact that the Outsiders features the Dick Grayson Nightwing, I'd say he'll be the permanent Nightwing. Interestingly enough, though, we now have confirmation that the second Nightwing OYL is Jason Todd:

[1] Wonder where they'll go with that.... --user:driscolj 02:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Can we come to some sort of consensus on this as to if the article should be 'Dick' or 'Nightwing' or are they interchangeable? If this is the 'Dick Grayson' page, we should use Dick. BUT if this is for all Nightwings... I dunno. It irks me to have it cutting back and forth between Dick and Nightwing. -- Ipstenu 00:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

---

How come there's no mentioning about his relationship with Barbara Gordon or any of his love life? HoneyBee 11:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Appealing to youngsters.

According to Bob Kane in his autobiography, it wasn't DC Comics who thought Robin would help appeal to youngsters, it was Kane and it seems mostly Bill Finger. Kane states that his then boss Jack Liebowitz didn't want Robin in the book and though mothers would be upset at a chile fighting gangsters. He allowed Kane and Finger a shot to prove him wronng and said if it went bad they would remove Robin from the book. After the positive responce to The Boy Wonder Kane joked to his boss that they better get rid of him now and his boss agreed to let Robin stay.

FWIW, Bob Kane's been noted for taking considerable credit for the Batman line that isn't really his. Not that Robin didn't turn out well, but I suspect Kane takes more credit than is deserved. Ipstenu 18:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Pointer to Nite-Wing article

Could someone familiar with the Nite-Wing character do something with the Wiki article? I would post this in the discussion for said article, but no one would see it. (I'd do it myself but I am pretty ignorant of the character.) Korvac 16:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Apparently there is a stub at 'Nite-Wing' and a real article at 'Nite-wing'. Perhaps the real article should be migrated to the correct place? Korvac 13:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Like Korvac, I have a request for someone more knowledgable: In the 'Nightwing Begins' section, should it be mentioned that grayson turning to Superman for advice and a name would be a slap in the face to Batman (who has an ongoing rivalry with Superman)? badmonkey 12:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Images/condensed

I dont want to remove anything, but this article is getting really cluttered. Some of the images need to be removed. --DrBat 13:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think it looks great with all those images. Several people have done a really good job transforming this page from a mediocre description of a recycled Silver Age Superman alter-ego to a great biography of Dick Grayson. Removing the images would only detract from it. --Ace ETP 19:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Not all of them; just some. There are too many, and the article looks cluttered as a result. --DrBat 00:15, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it's a bit too much, especially towards the more recent stuff. It seems more like a summary of events in recent issues than an an encyclopedic entry of Dick's life. I like the images though.

--Nelchael 13:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

IMAGES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!! What needs to happen is someone needs to summarize whole parts, mainly recent infitie crisis info and other recent stuff into clear, consice, taut paragraphs. But I actually think we need MORE IMAGES!

--Colossus34 13:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Trimming

Elements of this article require a good trim (I have made a start), Wikipedia is intended as an encyclopedia not a sub for actually reading the comics. If the section here on infinite crisis is actually longer than that on the trimmed and editted infinite crisis page, then work needs to be do! :)

I removed the One year later bit - I don't see what purpose it serves at this time. Once we know what has occured it might be worth putting such a section in.

--Charlesknight 20:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Red X

Actually, now that I think of it, there is a point to be made about the Red X persona in the Teen Titans TV show. Regardless of whether or not that Robin is Grayson, he is the Robin that grows up to be Nightwing in that Universe, and Red X was a significant alias of his. A very brief passage might be acceptable in that light. D1Puck1T 22:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Red X would be more appropriate on the Robin page, but this could be argued both ways. Ugh. Robin (Teen Titans Animated)? I almost dread creating new pages about this, but a spin-off for the other Robins, makes this 'I don't belong to any continuity, neener!' Robin different. -- Ipstenu 16:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

This article is for the character of the comics, not for the one of the animated series - kidfried 21:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. This article is for Nightwing, period. There isn't a seperate page for the comics Superman and animated Superman, despite some notable differences in the two.

That said, the animated Robin is a unique problem since he seems to be a gestalt of every Robin - hence Tim Drake's bo staff and costume, but the Nightwing destiny and romance with Starfire. On the one hand it seems logical to discuss him on the Robin page. On the other hand, he's leading the classic Titans, grows up to become Nightwing, and dates Starfire, so it seems like he should be discussed here. This might be the one case where a seperate page just for an animated character might be called for, since he doesn't seem to fit either page "just right".D1Puck1T 00:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The Split

Does anyone really get Dick confused with the other Nightwings? When you think Robin, there are three significant people who come to mind. Green Lantern: four plus. The Flash: four/three plus. When "Nightwing" is mentioned, do you think "Gee, is he talking about Superman, the original one from Krypton, or Dick Grayson? Or maybe Jason Todd." or for example "Nightwing helped Batman." Does that make you wonder if it could possibly be during an adventure with Superman as Nightwing.

Dick Grayson is Nightwing. Superman as Nightwing (did that happen Post-Crisis as well) and the Kryptonian Nightwing, currently serve to give the name heritage and depth. Not having a page with your real name (a la Tim Drake, Bart Allen, etc) is not a sign of disrespect or less importance. It shows, much like Batman and Superman, that Dick has been elevated to that iconic status. (as many of the heroes gush about Nightwing's stature and importance).

Anyway, everyone's making good arguments, and they should've been heard before whoever randomly decided to split it. Exvicious 07:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, everyone (except for colossus34) agreed for The Split. - Neodammerung 21:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not so much that I think people confuse Dick with other Nightwings, but that the original layout of the Nightwing article made it nigh impossible for anyone to add in information about other Nightwings for lack of logical and/or appropriate places. Also, it's that Dick has been so much more than Nightwing, and many people (myself included) automatically think 'Robin = Grayson' when we think of Dick Grayson. Much of the article mentions things that are much more Grayson specific than Nightwing. If Dick had been the only Nightwing, and he'd only been Nightwing, then staying Nightwing makes sense. This allows for much more flexibility in Grayson's life (he may not remain Nightwing forever, after all), while giving respect to the need for an encyclopediotic entry about the past. Finally, with the 'new Nightwing and Flamebird' coming soon, this confusion and lack of full information was only going to get worse. There was conversation open about this since January, and most people seemed to think 'wait till OYL.' We have Todd and Grayson as Nightwing now, and who knows how long that will last. Personally, I think that unless a superhero name is synonymous with one character only, we should be using their real names (like the Green Lanterns, Flashes and Robins). -- Ipstenu 11:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

But Nightwing the superhero identity/crime-fighter was created by Grayson, sure other INSIGNIFICAT characters have used the codename before and since, but if we give separate pages for every character who has similar "codenames" then wikipedia is going to become a mess. I agree for certain characters who aren't just using codenames but actual mantles/identities ala The Green Lantern or Flash who pass that mantle on to others then YES their needs to be a splitter page, but Nightwing c'mon! This is only going to confuse the layman about who Nightwing is!

The above comment was left by User:63.138.87.171 (please sign your comments with ~~~~).

Grayson didn't invent Nightwing as a superhero, Superman did. And again, if there were only a couple mentions of other Nightwings (just golden age supes) then yeah, keep it Nightwing. But there are six times this title has been used. Twice by Superman, once by Supergirl, and once by Jason Todd (who is still running around as Nightwing, which is confusing in and of it self). A lot of titles are identified with whatever era you started reading comics. If someone picks up a comic today and sees Nightwing, they see Todd and Grayson, which likely causes the same confusion as whomever is the Flash (Jay Garrick having not given up his title, even though most modern readers equate Wally with the Flash and the earlier folks have the cult of Barry... or whatever we chose to admit to ;) ). Point? It's already confusing :) ! At least this way people can pick and chose. I trust readers to ... well, read! -- Ipstenu 19:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with your Jason Todd argument, mostly because i think it's just a story arc development. Also, according to Nightwing: Year One, Superman didn't create the Nightwing, he merely told Dick the legend of the original Kryptonian Nightwing (but that's just modern continuity). Does anyone know of any point in time post-Crisis that Superman has become Nightwing in Kandor? I can't think of any. The classic Kandor returned in Superman 200, but i can't think of any instance in modern times that Superman has used the name Nightwing. -- Exvicious 23:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Superman: The Man of Steel #111 - Neodammerung 21:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with Ipstenu's argument either. The Jason Todd argument, is just a story arc development like in current Daredevil where an imposter Daredevil is masquerading around Hell's Kitchen. Also, the analogy that a reader will identify with Nightwing based on what era they started reading comics makes no sense!

Nightwing ie Dick Grayson is the only character called Nightwing to have his own solo title ever! IN ANY ERA! He's the only character to recieve any recognition if you pick up any DC Encyclopedia and look under the name NIGHTWING---guess what? You get Nightwing created by Marv Wolfman! You don't get a splinter article that discusses the so called "mantle of Nightwing" or the few insignicant characters who used the codename Nightwing or pre-crisis superman. TheCoreOne 24:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Its not about the nightwings, its about the fact that Dick Grayson was Robin for some 40 years before becoming nightwing. - Neodammerung 21:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if Dick Grayson is the best known person to use the name - he wasn't the first, and others have used it after he took it on. To deny them their place in the mythos is wrong and unencyclopedic. In the world we live in, as opposed to the DC Universe, Dick's use of the name Nightwing came from Supes use of it first. No amount of retcon will ever change that. Why would you want an article that gives you a false history? CovenantD 13:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

That's where I think your wrong, someone earlier mentioned: Superman flying around in a jet pack and black tights shares only one thing with Nightwing and that's a simple codename. Well guess what? Hundreds of heros in the same continuity have shared codenames and aren't mantles. The way I see it Pre-Crisis Kryptonian Nightwing should maybe get his own page if that works, but the facts are simple: Nightwing is not some mantle like Flash or Green Lantern that is passed on from one generation to the next. Dick created it and was simply inspired to use a codename from a millenium old legend and the costume he wears is actually based on what his father wore in the circus. TheCoreOne 24:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

You're confusing DC history with real history and arguing a moot point. The split has happened and Nightwing is a true history of the name. CovenantD 14:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

the main picture

Uh, okay, so i don't think anyone's going to agree with the split thing. But if we're going with the argument that Dick has been all these things we need a better picture to represent that. Like a collage of his history, with Robin, Modern Nightwing, original Titans Nightwing, Prodigal Batman, and maybe Red Robin. Exvicious 18:03, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Here are some:

Phil Hester representation

Rick Leonardi representation

If someone have more robin/nightwing pictures, please post them here. - Neodammerung 00:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I like the Leonardi! -- Ipstenu 01:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

You're awesome! Leonardi! Exvicious 01:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Anyone else think the Leonardi image is severly dated and quite frankly pretty chessy looking? User:TheCoreOne 01:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, but it looks cool in the SHB. - Neodammerung 18:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You should see the Wonder Woman picture, talking about dated. And this one is a better representation of all that Dick Grayson is and has been :) The Hester image was too ... chunky. -- Ipstenu 19:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Dick Grayson=Master Detective

For those who believe DC's hype that Tim Drake is the only detective in the Batfamily--read some comics! It's odd though, when Tim was introduced in "A Lonely Place Of Dying," Dick was actually much smarter than Tim, he knew Two-Face was trying to assassinate Batman just by looking at a few random pictures. He also knew who set the lion loose at the circus when Tim was pointed to a completely different person by the evidence. In The New Titans #59 after having taken a leave of absence, Nightwing returns to the team and provides the detective instincts and analysis that allows them to solve the case. In a later arc Dick single-handedly solves the first Wildebeest case, freeing Starfire from prosecution. He also solves the case of "The 6 days of the Scarecrow" in Detective#503. Way back when, come to think of it, in a ACTION one-shot appearance, when Superman needs a master detective to solve a case he turns to--you guessed it Dick Grayson!

If you still need more evidence then please READ: "Who is Donna Troy? The New Teen Titans #38, as the definite proof of why Dick is officially stated as second only to Batman in Detective skills which makes him an unquestioned MASTER. Actually, occasionally he's even topped the man himself, as shown in Batman Year 3 where he solved the case before Batman! Also, In Batman: Dark Victory #12, after being scolded by Bruce, Dick proceeds to one-up him by finding the hidden message in the first hangman clue or when Dick figured out before Batman that Barbara Gordon was Batgirl in BG: Year One.

STILL need more evidence? And you guys call yourselves Dick Grayson fans? please.... 63.138.87.171 May 1st (UTC)

Let's calm down. I don't think anyone's saying Dick's not a stellar detective, but I don't feel it's above and beyond the call of an encyclopedia to err on the side of caution. Not everyone's got all their copies of every comic in a readily accessible place, so let's try and work together and be polite. Of the three Robins, Dick was always known as the near meta physical prodigy acrobat. Jason was the street tough. Tim was the detective. This isn't to say that Jason and Dick can't solve crimes, or Tim always gets his ass kicked in. It just means that first, they were know as <this>. Is Dick a 'master' detective? Maybe. But he's considered second to Batman (which is a HUGE cred!) in a lot of ways, which I believe includes detective. To quote above "In the DC ENCYLOCPEDIA it's clearly stated "Nightwing's Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only to Batman"" If we list Batman as a master detective, how do we list Dick, to give Batman top billing and still recognize Dick for his own abilities? (and FYI, anyone who puts Tim as a Master Detective should change that, cause he's good and getting better, but he's not a master, yet).

Assume good faith, my friend. You yell at us for not being fans? We're trying to work together as a community. And we do appreciate your help :) -- Ipstenu 01:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry didn't mean to get pithy on you, but just needed to state the facts and prove undoubtedly that Grayson is a master detective. (Despite DC's attempts to reduce Dick to good looking charismatic guy since Dixon) Also, I'll put up an image I scanned where Dick calls himself "one of the worlds's greatest detectives" hmmm...still need more proof? ;) --User:63.138.87.171 11:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

More Dick Grayson detective feats: In Teen Titans #46, he figured out that two feuding musical groups (The Flyers and the Woodworkers) were in fact, one and the same. In Teen Titans #52, he deduced that the Titans' newest villain, Captain Calamity was actually his old Bat-foe, Mr. Esper. In the New Teen Titans (vol. 2) #12, he took the lead in solving a 50-year-old murder, bringing the spirit of a young girl that was haunting his apartment peace at long last. In Teen Titans Spotlight #14, he draws on those skills to locate an abducted Batman, who had managed to leave a series of clues only Dick Grayson could have deciphered.In NTT #32 , Nightwing exposed an apparent murder at a mountain resort as a publicity stunt by a overzealous cadaver-swiping medical student.

Man do I miss when Nightwing was written well...; ( --User:63.138.87.171 11:29, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I can call myself the worlds greatest coder, so let's get rid of that ;) Look, I don't want this to be come an RV war, which was why I put up 'exceptional' there, hoping it would be some happy medium. I don't think it's right to say master detective, since Dick's not listed as the formost detectives of DCU (Elongated Man and Batman are). The way the powers read now, however, has 'master' level being applied to 'detective, strategist and leader'.

Let's try and handle this informally: Can more people weigh in with their thoughts? No more revisions of the Notable Powers until we can reach some consensus? I've edited the section to request we discuss it. -- Ipstenu 17:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I vote for 'excellent' or 'expert' for all the martial artist, strategist, leader and detective thing. Also, can someone give a source for this "near meta-human agility" stuff? - Neodammerung 20:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was mentioned by Brother Eye, but skimming makes me wanna take it back and say 'peak human level at ...' -- Ipstenu 21:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Ummm...what's there to discuss...based on those feats its obvious Dick is a master detective. You can't be "second only to Batman in detective skills" and not be a master(which means your one of the best) I say put either "one of the world's greatest detectives" or leave it as master which implies that. -- VideoKB 23:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I like how it reads now: peak human athlete, expceptional Martial artist and master detective. That sums up Nightwing to me.-- TheCoreOne 23:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

63.138.87.171, I'm switching you to decaf (kidding! Kidding!). We're gonna leave it as it stands right now, since I think that's as much of a consensus as we're gonna get ;) I've changed the editor not to DO NOT CHANGE: this list is by consensus on the talk page under the powers bit of the Superhero box :) -- Ipstenu 13:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)