Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision

Home

Talk

Article
Alerts

Assessment

Quality
Articles

Popular
Pages

Formatting
& Guidance

News DeskArchiveMembers

Media

Being fully aware of the fact that most Eurovision fan media (apart from Wiwibloggs) don't meet notability guidelines, surely some people and sites are notable enough to be mentioned somewhere, perhaps on a new article List of notable Eurovision fan media or something similar — IмSтevan ^talk 15:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Would a stand-alone list of Eurovision fan media satisfy WP:NLIST though? I'm not so sure that it does, especially if we go with that the media outlets themselves are not considered notable for their own articles. If they're not notable as individual entries, why would a list of them be required or wanted? Additionally I think there's a risk of scope creep coming into play, that more and more less-notable media outlets start getting added, leading things to spiral out of control. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:34, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Some help at Eden Golan requested

Hello WikiProject Eurovision,

I am a fairly new editor who has gotten involved with quite the discussion at Talk:Eden Golan. The main issue of the case is whether she should be described as an "Israeli singer", followed by a short part on her youth in Russia, or as "Russian-Israeli singer". (This problem also exists on the Hurricane song page, however the problem started with a bunch of reverts on Edens page, so the discussion is happening there). Currently 5 editors have been involved, 2 in the "Israeli" camp, 2 in the "Russian-Israeli" camp and me, who is unsure about the situation.

Because of the current situation, we cannot find consensus. Seeing the looming Eurovision 2024 next week, it would be nice to get some fresh ideas in for the discussion. I hope this is the correct place, this is the conflict I have really been part of so I am still unsure if I am doing things correctly.

It is late for me, so I will probably not react for the coming 8 hours. However I hope the information laid out on the Talk:Eden Golan is enough.

Thank you for reading,

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say it should be Israeli-Russian, as her parents are both Russian, having been born in the Soviet Union. Ktkvtsh (talk) 21:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

This topic has indeed come up, however her parents are described as Ukrainian and Latvian. Seeing how complicated the relation between now-independent formerly soviet countries and the Russian identity is, this would be a tough sell.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 21:36, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Eurovision 2025 - When a country announces an event that historically has been used to specifically to choose its representative for Eurovision, it's a safe bet that they're going to be there.

In example - I've noticed that with Spain and Norway announcing Benidorm Fest and Melodi Grand Prix, instead of interpreting it as the country will participate in the upcoming edition, we just write it down into the other countries column.

In my opinion, if a brodcaster announces an national selection will be held, and that - that national selection historically always has been used to find the representative of Eurovision, we can consider it a confirmation that the country will participate. I understand that with i.e. Sanremo, the history isn't that it's always used to find the eurovision participant, so an announcement of Sanremo 2025 wouldn't mean Italy will certainly compete in Eurovision 2025. But when songwriting camps for Melodi Grand Prix 2025 is announced, and we have written on it's page that "It determines the country's representative for the Eurovision Song Contest, and has been staged almost every year since 1960.", the announcement of Melodi Grand Prix 2025 means Norway's participation at Eurovision 2025 is assured. Thomediter (talk) 11:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

If the source does not state that it is considered a confirmation, then it should not be included, but they should be mentioned below the participation table, as those song contests and Eurovision have a close connection. The examples you stated would constitute original research — IмSтevan ^talk 11:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

2024 United States presidential election - look at this - here we also include something 99% certain, but not 100%. If an event specifically made for selecting the Eurovision participant is announced, it definitely means that the country will take part in the contest. Thomediter (talk) 11:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

There is extensive coverage that the election will happen, nothing in there is original research — IмSтevan ^talk 00:30, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

AQs in semis

So, following the show (sf1), what do we think? I still believe that automatic qualifiers should be slotted into the tables for semi-finals — IмSтevan ^talk 13:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, they should be included. Ktkvtsh (talk) 17:30, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Netherlands 2024 disqualification

A few minutes ago, it was announced that the Netherlands was disqualified from the final. While it did compete in the semi-finals, it was disqualified from the final. How should this be represented on the map of countries, whether in red like the NQ countries, or a different colour, as it did qualify? Xeroctic (talk) 10:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I say purple color because it's not used any longer for non-selected countries. As a country qualified for the final (blue) and doesn't participate in it (red) at the same time. 𝐒𝐦𝐭𝐡𝐧𝐠𝐧𝐰 ^💬 10:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Purple blends in too well with the rest. Green would be an option, as that is the color of semi-finalists — IмSтevan ^talk 11:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Green is to positive for a disqualification. That would just be misleading. Tvx1 11:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah green is too positive, maybe a darker-grey/black or dark orange? -- AxG / ✉  12:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe light blue like the relegated countries in older contests? Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 04:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Jury results

Should the Netherlands be included in individual countries' jury rankings? You can clearly see where the Netherlands would've been in each country's jury and individual jurors' rankings based off simply which numbers are missing — IмSтevan ^talk 11:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move

An editor has requested that Nemo (rapper) be moved to Nemo (singer), which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You are invited to participate in the move discussion. GnocchiFan (talk) 20:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

"Location" sections

The "Location" section of the contest articles is usually formatted somewhat awkwardly on desktop, with the text sandwiched between the infobox, the image of the host venue, and the location map. The "Bidding phase" subsection also has to awkwardly incorporate a table and another map, sometimes around the infobox. You can see the issue in the 2024, 2023, and 2022 articles.

Is there any way we can move things around to improve the layout? Some suggestions to start with:

• Move the venue image elsewhere, possibly to "Production"
• Removing the cities which expressed interest but did not bid from the bidding table.
• Remove the bidding table entirely, since it's mostly a repetition of the prose.
• Inserting the wikitext (I forget what it is) which forces a break between the end of the infobox and the start of the first section. This would create a significant amount of white space.
• Reducing the length of the infobox. Probably not possible?
• Putting the map and images in gallery format at the bottom of the section, if possible.

A.D.Hope (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Broadcast info for "former" countries on present-day country articles

Given the cache of new Czechoslovak broadcast information which has recently surfaced, it got me thinking about how this information is currently presented within the "country in contest" articles with regards to contests broadcast in former countries. Right now the broadcasts of the contest between 1965 and 1992 within Czechoslovakia is currently duplicated at both Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest#Commentators and spokespersons and Slovakia in the Eurovision Song Contest#Commentators and spokespersons, even though neither country is considered a successor state in international law, and the fact that legally Česká televize and Slovenská televízia, the two broadcasters which eventually went on to participate in Eurovision, are legally distinct from the now defunct Czechoslovak Television.

The same situation is also present at Russia in the Eurovision Song Contest#Commentators_and_spokespersons for broadcasts in the former Soviet Union by Soviet Central Television (CT USSR), which was succeeded by several different broadcasters, among which the former Programme One eventually became the former EBU member broadcaster Channel One Russia. However we also know that Eesti Televisioon broadcast the contest from at least 1986 but this information is not included at Estonia in the Eurovision Song Contest#Commentators and spokespersons.

This also raises the question about how best to approach the various broadcasts in Yugoslavia, as although Yugoslav Radio Television was the participating broadcaster for Yugoslavia between 1961 and 1992, each individual constituent republic had its own broadcaster as a member of the umbrella org, which aligns with the current EBU member broadcasters in each country. While there are many gaps in broadcast history for some of these countries, the broadcasts by what is now Radiotelevizija Slovenija and Hrvatska radiotelevizija are very detailed, however these are not currently included at Slovenia in the Eurovision Song Contest#Commentators and spokespersons and Croatia in the Eurovision Song Contest#Commentators and spokespersons.

There's probably a job to be had with all of the broadcast tables across these articles, as many of them are largely unsourced, as well as a question about how best to structure these tables going forwards, since on many articles the tables have become very unwieldy; this however is a different conversation for another time. Right now I'd like to get thoughts on the matter above and to agree on a way forward which is consistent for all articles and situations. In my mind we could either add all relevant broadcast details for former countries to the article on the present-day country, which would mean adding any confirmed broadcasts from those broadcasters which align with the current broadcasters of present-day countries (i.e. Yugoslavia for Croatia, Slovenia et al.; YU/Serbia and Montenegro for Serbia, Montenegro; USSR for Russia); or we remove any broadcasts which were not made by the present-day country entirely from those articles (so removing any Czechoslovak broadcast from Czechia, Slovakia; Soviet broadcasts from Russia). If we go with the former, that however raises the question about what to do with the table at Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest#Commentators and spokespersons, whether broadcast information is retained at the Yugoslavia article as a duplicate or we just provide links to the tables at the respective successor states. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I think that the best approach is to be historically accurate. I mean, everything about Yugoslavia between 1961 and 1992 should be only in the Yugoslavian article, and in the current countries articles there should be a link like "for information prior to year XXX, see the Yugoslavian article".

The same for Czechoslovakia. I think in this case there should be created the corresponding article for Czechoslovakia, taking in consideration that at some point Czechoslovak Television (ČST) was eligible to participate and it has a broadcast history of the contest. (Lebanon has its own article). And I think that the article for ČST should also be recovered (now it redirects to ČT, and I think that is wrong as they are legally distinct and it overshadows STV's history).

Regarding USSR, as it never had a broadcaster eligible to participate, its broadcasting history should be keep only in the corresponding contest article. Ferclopedio (talk) 17:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe creating an article for Czechoslovakia in the Eurovision Song Contest (currently a redirect to List of countries in the Eurovision Song Contest) would be useful, as they never entered or had intention to enter before their dissolution. This is different to Lebanon as they actually intended to participate in 2005 and had selected an entry before withdrawing. Potentially we could create a section for Czechoslovakia at List of countries in the Eurovision Song Contest#Other countries and territories and add a table there for broadcasts in that country before 1993, and similarly create a table at List of countries in the Eurovision Song Contest#Soviet Union for those broadcasts before its collapse in 1991. I still have questions about the Estonian broadcasts, since ETV had been a distinct organisation from the central Soviet TV, and it doesn't seem right to me to lump the two together. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 17:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I was also thinking about Estonia since I send my answer, I think that in this case, as it is the same broadcaster that first broadcast it and then participated (ETV), is ok to have its information in the Estonian article. Ferclopedio (talk) 17:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

In any other case (USSR, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia), the broadcaster was not the same, it was a successor of it. Ferclopedio (talk) 17:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Removed broadcaster references

It has come to my attention that in a number of "contest per year" pages ranging from 1956 to the 1980s at least, some references about broadcasters, particularly Austria and Monaco, have been removed. The reason behind those edits, albeit carried out by respectable members of the WikiProject, remains unclear in my eyes as the edit summaries don't give sufficiently information on these reasons.

Were the references quoted (particularly eurovision.tv) deemed not good enough for proving the broadcast itself (in which case a "better source needed" or "source needed" could have been added instead to clarify)? Were any references for these particular countries deemed unnecessary since participating broadcasters were required to broadcast the contest anyway and Austria and Monaco only had one television channel at that time? Or is there any other reason?

Sorry for not being able to read thoughts of other editors. Clear and unambiguous edit summaries or a topic on this very talk page for edits on such a large scale would be helpful. Thank you! EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 17:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I had originally added these references maybe a year or two ago when I took it upon myself to clean up these sections. Previously there was a lot of unsourced information related to the channel and commentators, which I subsequently removed and have retained only the information which was verifiable. You can still see much of the old, unsourced and unverified information on the country in contest articles, which I have also intentions to completely clean up. The inclusion of these refs was before the participants tables were added to the article, so before then there was no place to actually provide information on the participating broadcaster at the top level.

I believe that Bray0829's intentions with removing these references is that they don't actually provide any information on the specific channel/commentator, and that as you correctly state for some of these countries at that time there was only one television station on which the contest could be broadcast. There is a slight WP:SYNTH issue with this approach, given that it's predicated on the assumption that by participating the broadcasters are required to show the contest live on television, which is why I included the eurovision.tv refs as a way to verify the broadcaster in those countries.

Ultimately I'm not sure what the best approach would be to these countries where a specific ref showing the channel is not available; given we now have the participants table showing the participating broadcaster for each country we could approach the broadcasts table in the same way as for non-participants and simply remove those rows where no direct reference is available to verify the broadcast channel; in the case of Eurovision Song Contest 1960#Broadcasts as an example this would mean removing the rows for Austria and Monaco entirely. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 17:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I’m not 100 % sure either how to deal with that case.

Since the section always includes the sentence “Known details on the broadcasts in each country (...) are shown in the tables below”, a removal of the rows lacking any references would be okay, in my opinion. It is, after all, a table showing where and on which channels the contest actually was broadcast – not a table showing where it had to be broadcast according to the official rules.

Online sources for Austrian and Monegasque TV listings and newspapers are unfortunately very rare in the early years. But printed sources exist and their TV programs sometimes also are printed in German (for Austria) and French (for Monaco) periodicals at that time. It only takes time and energy to request and go through all that material in various libraries. Replacing the references with “citation needed” templates would mean that some contest pages will have these templates in the broadcast tables for many years. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)