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Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Literature/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured portal candidate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the portal's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured portal candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The portal was promoted by OhanaUnited 18:13, 14 June 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Portal:Literature edit

For the 2006 nomination, see Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Literature/Archive 1

Self nomination: This portal was promoted in 2006 and delisted in May 2013, having gone several years without an update. I have rebuilt it completely, with only the "Today in literature" remaining from the old version. It has been built in such a way that it no longer needs updating, so it should remain healthy for the long term. The portal contains:

  • 38 selected works (FA class articles)
  • 25 26 selected illustrations (FP class pictures)
  • 25 28 selected excerpts (public domain quotes taken from Wikisource, except the last three, which are featured sounds)
  • 25 sets of 5 DYKs (all ran on the main page)
  • "Today in literature" (366 daily birth and death pages)
  • Bottom matter (categories, WikiProjects, Portals, Topics, etc.)
  • 24 selected biographies (FA class articles)

I can think of only one additional work to put into the selected works section, but I skipped it due to a lack of a free image. There are other illustrations that can be added, but I kept to a rule of "one illustration per work", and all of the remaining FPs are from large sets. There are plenty enough excerpts and DYKs, I feel, and as they are both a massive time sink to produce, I would prefer to leave them at 25 apiece. I will begin the notification process shortly, and will report back with the projects I hit up once I am done.

Thank you for your consideration, Sᴠᴇɴ Mᴀɴɢᴜᴀʀᴅ Wha? 07:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Informed WikiProjects Literature, Novels, Books, and Poetry, as well as users Expresso Addict, Prsephone1674, Feyday, and KF (per reasons at delisting). Sᴠᴇɴ Mᴀɴɢᴜᴀʀᴅ Wha? 07:53, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're not going to like me much, and I really apologise, but...
This has a very Western bias. I'd like to see more world literature added. Offhand - and only including ones that should fairlyeasily be illustrated - Journey to the West, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the Water Margin (this has an FP!), One Hundred Years of Solitude, Gilgamesh, The Golden Ass, The Tale of Genji, A Thousand and One Arabian Nights, The Adventures and Misadventures of Maqroll, The Iliad, The Odyssey, the Mahabharata. All are world-known. Also, your definition at the top includes non-fiction, I don't see any though. How about Frederick Douglass' autobiography, and, hmm. Nellie Bly and Ida B. Wells might be good. They wrote very famous exposés. Voltairine de Cleyre might not be bad either - I mean, I just got talked into doing an FP of her, and, y'know, no need to stick to the mainstream too much. Cicero, Plato, Herodotus, and Thucydides were highly foundational to a lot of Western work, Confucius might not be bad for eastern philosophy; you could arguably do the literary sections of the Bible - Book of Lamentations, say, which has an FP. Drama is a bit under-represented, despite being named in the opening; I'd suggest some of the works of Plautus, Aristophanes, Euripides, Aeschylus, Sophocles W.S.Gilbert, Ben Jonson, Molière, Thomas Dekker, one of the traditional Chinese dramas, perhaps, etc.
It would also be worth asking User:Crisco 1492 for some Indonesian suggestions. Again, I am sorry. Adam Cuerden (talk) 06:33, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the definition includes non-fiction, I'd suggest something like Theory of Literature... a bit dated, sure, but influential in its time. Indonesian... the most significant novel currently a GA is Sitti Nurbaya, but looking back that needs quite a bit of polish. Boenga Roos dari Tjikembang is probably the best suited for this portal, although we also have FAs on Drama dari Krakatau and Sair Tjerita Siti Akbari (although if importance was the only consideration, I'd recommend Hang Tuah... but that's in terrible shape. We also have FAs on an Indonesian poet, Amir Hamzah, and an Indonesian dramatist-turned-director, Andjar Asmara. Of course, that would be swamping the portal with Indonesia, so obviously you can't choose all of them. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:29, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adam Cuerden: What we have here is one of the fundamental conflicts in the featured portal process. I am keenly aware of how poorly represented non-English language, non-Western canon is in the portal, but none of the articles you suggested are Featured Articles, and indeed none of them are anywhere close to being Good Articles. Featured portals are supposed to be organized collections of the project's best work, which means that in broadly focused subjects like this, they are especially vulnerable to being hit with the project's existing systemic bias. The decision whether to use the highest available quality articles/images available or lowering the level of quality of article/image in order to get a more interesting selection is a difficult one. I tried my hardest to incorporate lots of non-Western DYKs, because those existed. There are not, however, very many non-Western literary FAs or, for that matter, FPs. I could, and probably will, incorporate the other two of Crisco 1492's suggested FAs (he suggested three, but Sair Tjerita Siti Akbari is already in the portal). That will still bring the ratio of works from outside North America and Europe from 4:38 to 6:40 (from 10.5% to 15%). It's not great, but it is reflective of the percentage of featured work on non-Western subjects on Wikipedia. I could add in a selected biography section, but we only have six or seven usable (has a freely licensed image) FAs on authors from outside North American and Europe, so the best ratio I could possibly do in that section would be 7:20 (35%), and if I included a larger selection, it would be 7:25 or 7:30 (28% or 23%). That's better than the selected works, but it's still woeful. As for the shortage of drama articles/mentions in this portal, that is because the inclusion of drama in literature is by no means universally accepted. There are lots of scholars that don't see drama as literature, and lots of scholars that consider certain drama like Shakespeare, which is constructed using poetic principles, to be literature but most other drama as not literature. I have struggled with the best way to handle drama throughout the entire process. Sᴠᴇɴ Mᴀɴɢᴜᴀʀᴅ Wha? 16:48, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Why are you limiting the biographies to those which have free images? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Crisco 1492 - Having the portrait there breaks up what would otherwise be a large chunk of plain text. Since portals are supposed to be visually appealing, I tend to like to have not only the selected illustration, but also an image in one or two of the other sections. Much like the "today's featured article" section of the main page can function without an image, it (and the main page) looks better with one. Additionally, if every other entry in that section has one, having one entry that doesn't makes it look rather out of place. I've never run into a situation where this restriction became problematic. It might remove one or two options, but almost every FA has at least on relevant freely licensed image. Sᴠᴇɴ Mᴀɴɢᴜᴀʀᴅ Wha? 18:10, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough, although personally I consider it appropriate to use articles without any free images if necessary. I've got a busy day ahead of me, but I'll try and review this portal later. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:15, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, fair enough, but we can probably pull in a few of those with featured pictures. How about Water Margin, which has an FP related to it? Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:39, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would go in the featured pictures / selected pictures category, generally. The SA section is for those with really good articles. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:47, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adam Cuerden: I can add that image into the selected illustrations section. I didn't see it before because it's not in the illustrations section of the list of FPs, which is where I drew the original list of candidates from. Sᴠᴇɴ Mᴀɴɢᴜᴀʀᴅ Wha? 02:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You know, I don't see any selected biographies at all. Or selected articles that are not works (i.e. literary schools, publishers, etc.). This is, in my opinion, a wholely unjustified structuralist limitation. We have mountains of author GAs and FAs (I should know, I've written four or five myself), and there are some FAs on movements (Imagism) and genres (poetry)... that feels like a pretty big shortcoming. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Crisco 1492: Yeah, I meant to do a selected biographies section when I planned this out. I ended up skipping it because I thought that the excerpt section would be a better use of the space, but I will go ahead and build that now. Sᴠᴇɴ Mᴀɴɢᴜᴀʀᴅ Wha? 02:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think I can accept the issue with the FAs; what's going on with the issues Crisco raised? Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:07, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sven Manguard, how's it going with addressing above comments? — Cirt (talk) 06:10, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Cirt: It's second on the list of things I want to get done in the next week or so (behind finishing the work needed for an ongoing GAN). I will hopefully be able to work on it this weekend. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sure sure, no worries, take your time, no rush, was just curious. — Cirt (talk) 10:14, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Crisco 1492, Adam Cuerden, and Cirt: There is now a biography section with 21 items. Over the weekend I will be adding in a few more (Ann Bannon, Edgar Allan Poe, and Anton Chekhov have proven difficult to do in 200-220 words), but as it stands right now, it has considerable non-Western Europe/non-North America coverage, with 11 of the 21 people from outside of those regions. There's only one that I really wanted to get in but couldn't, Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo, and it's a shame that there are no freely licensed photographs of him. Without dipping into GAs, which I don't want to do because there are so many FAs to choose from, this is the best I can do on the diversity front. I'm just as upset about it as you all are, but there aren't any good options here. On a side note, Adam: I am pretty sure that you'll approve of this choice. . Anyways, if the three of you could please let me know of your thoughts on the portal in its current state, that would be much appreciated. Sven Manguard Wha? 21:11, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll go through the FPs to see if there's any lurking in weird corners of the folder tree. Oh, actually, one question: Would adaptations be significant? Because Featured Sounds may not be collecting new entries, but there are a few settings of poems in there, and operas based on books and plays. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can't say that I'm enthusiastic about that idea. We don't have much poetry at FS, and I don't want to include too much opera in the portal, as opera is by no means universally recognized as part of literature. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:00, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it would be nice to get the Walt Whitman, Ordo Virtutum, and Auld Lang Syne in, maybe the Winston Churchill (Nobel Laureate in Literature, in part for his speeches, you know). 05:27, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
I will see if I can come up with something. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like good progress is being made here, keep us posted. — Cirt (talk) 09:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Adam Cuerden - Take a look at what I rigged up at Portal:Literature/Excerpts. The Featured Sounds are numbers 26, 27, and 28. It's a shame that there's nothing on Wikisource for Ordo Virtutum, but I worked around that. I decided not to put the speech by Churchill in because I feel that I am already stretching the boundaries of "literature" a bit in the portal already, and speeches aren't what I would consider literature. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Adam Cuerden and Crisco 1492: I've finished adding Bannon, Chekhov, and Poe, which finishes the featured biography section. I think that this is ready for you to take another look at. Sven Manguard Wha? 02:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this is easily among Wikipedia's best work and all concerns about systemic bias is fixed. Secret account 01:57, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Any updates on this portal? Adam Cuerden, Crisco 1492, any thoughts? — Cirt (talk) 19:49, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cirt Maybe you could review it, and then OhanaUnited could promote once all of your concerns are addressed? I don't think that Adam or Crisco are going to come back for another pass; they've each been pinged several times, and I left talk page messages a while back too. This is also Sven Manguard 19:52, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd llike to check some FPs, but am largely happy to have this promoted. I certainly don't oppose, and if I end up doing a little work after it's promoted, well, that's just making it better, right? Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, awesome! This is also Sven Manguard 20:17, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Aye, sorry, just my mum was visiting, so I haven't had the time for a big full review of FPs, but, as I said... Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate the need to diversify (outside of North America and Western Europe) but would Dylan Thomas be a worthy addition?-Godot13 (talk) 21:48, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Godot13 - Right now, I am only using Featured Articles in the "Selected ____" sections. That is generally the practice for topics where there are enough FAs to do so (as is the case here). If there aren't enough FAs, then I will start to use GAs. There is a discussion going on elsewhere about how much importance article quality should be given during the selection process, but what I'm doing is what I picked up as best practices from looking at other featured portals. Sven Manguard Wha? 04:56, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Knowing very little about portals I spent some time looking at several others. (Sadly numismatics could use some work, but I digress). It seems like a lot of work went into this and it shows. While I'm sure more work can still go in, it seems to meet criteria (and be on par or with many or surpass some of the existing Featured Portals), so I will Support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Godot13 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 17 May 2014
My error forgetting to sign the above--Godot13 (talk) 20:18, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As I've said above, I support this being promoted. Can it be? Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:14, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll ping Cirt and OhanaUnited, the FPO directors. Sven Manguard Wha? 15:51, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's basically ready at this point in time. I'm about to head out of town but if OhanaUnited doesn't get to it then I'll have another look soon. — Cirt (talk) 19:02, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My house was without internet for nearly the entire May and I am out of town until June 6. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:12, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Cirt and OhanaUnited: Any word on this? Sven Manguard Wha? 17:09, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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