Wikipedia:Featured article review/Buckingham Palace

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Joelr31 22:40, 4 April 2009 [1].

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Buckingham Palace

Review commentary

Notified: Giano, Giano II, FClef, Bishonen, Risker, WP England, WP Architecture, WP London

previous FAR

Fails criteria 1c, 1d 2a

1C factually accurate

• (c) factually accurate: claims are verifiable against reliable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this requires a "References" section in which sources are listed, complemented by inline citations where appropriate;
• (d) neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias;

Most of the article does not have inline citations. To those who are not British, this is not such "commonly known" information that it does not need references, as I was told on the article talk page.

Examples of large chunks of unreferenced material

• "In 1531 Henry VIII acquired the Hospital of St James (later St. James's Palace) from Eton College, and in 1536 he took the Manor of Ebury from Westminster Abbey. These transfers brought the site of Buckingham Palace back into royal hands for the first time since William the Conqueror had given it away almost 500 years earlier."Y
• "The improvident Goring defaulted on his rents; Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington obtained the mansion and was occupying it, now known as Goring House, when it burned down in 1674. Arlington House rose on the site — the southern wing of today's palace — the next year, and its freehold was bought in 1702."
• "(Like his grandfather, George II, George III refused to sell the mulberry garden interest, so that Sheffield had been unable to purchase the full freehold of the site.) The house was originally intended as a private retreat for the royal family, and in particular for Queen Charlotte, and was known as The Queen's House. St. James's Palace remained the official and ceremonial royal residence; indeed, the tradition continues to the present time of foreign ambassadors being formally accredited to "the Court of St. James's", even though it is at Buckingham Palace that they present their credentials and staff to the Queen upon their appointment."

1. Specific attachment to Mulberry Gdns, needs ref.
2. 1775 Act footnoted, and use ref'd to London Old and New. Somerset House was 'swapped'
3. The Court of St James article is ref'd to a palace message board - probably should get a better ref for that. HTH Kbthompson (talk) 11:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• "The principal rooms of the palace are contained on the piano nobile behind the west-facing garden facade at the rear of the palace. The centre of this ornate suite of state rooms is the Music Room, its large bow the dominant feature of the facade. Flanking the Music Room are the Blue and the White Drawing rooms. At the centre of the suite, serving as a corridor to link the state rooms, is the Picture Gallery, which is top-lit and 55 yards (50 m) long. The Gallery is hung with numerous works including some by Rembrandt, van Dyck, Rubens and Vermeer; other rooms leading from the Picture Gallery are the Throne Room and the Green Drawing Room. The Green Drawing room serves as a huge anteroom to the Throne Room, and is part of the ceremonial route to the throne from the Guard Room at the top of the Grand staircase. The Guard Room contains white marble statues of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, in Roman costume, set in a tribune lined with tapestries. These very formal rooms are used only for ceremonial and official entertaining, but are open to the public every summer."

• "Directly underneath the State Apartments is a suite of slightly less grand rooms known as the semi-state apartments. Opening from the Marble Hall, these rooms are used for less formal entertaining, such as luncheon parties and private audiences. Some of the rooms are named and decorated for particular visitors, such as the 1844 Room, which was decorated in that year for the State visit of Emperor Nicholas I of Russia, and, on the other side of the Bow Room, the 1855 Room. At the centre of this suite is the Bow Room, through which thousands of guests pass annually to the Queen's Garden Parties in the Gardens beyond. The Queen uses privately a smaller suite of rooms in the North wing."

• and the greatest contemporary musicians entertained at Buckingham Palace. Felix Mendelssohn is known to have played there on three occasions. Johann Strauss II and his orchestra played there when in England. Strauss's "Alice Polka" was first performed at the palace in 1849 in honour of the Queen's daughter, Princess Alice. Under Victoria, Buckingham Palace was frequently the scene of lavish costume balls, in addition to the routine royal ceremonies, investitures and presentations."

• "Between 1847 and 1850, when Blore was building the new east wing, the Brighton Pavilion was once again plundered of its fittings. As a result, many of the rooms in the new wing have a distinctly oriental atmosphere. The red and blue Chinese Luncheon Room is made up from parts of the Brighton banqueting and music rooms, but has a chimney piece, also from Brighton, in design more Indian than Chinese. The Yellow Drawing Room has 18th-century wall paper, which was supplied in 1817 for the Brighton Saloon, and the chimney piece in this room is a European vision of what the Chinese equivalent would look like, complete with nodding mandarins in niches and fearsome winged dragons."

• "At the rear of the palace, large and park-like, is the garden. Which, together with its lake, is the largest private garden in London."Y
• "Visiting heads of state today, when staying at the palace, occupy a suite of rooms known as the Belgian suite, which is on the ground floor of the North-facing garden front. These rooms, with corridors enhanced by saucer domes, were first decorated for Prince Albert's uncle Léopold I, first King of the Belgians. Edward VIII lived in these rooms during his short reign."Y - but it's almost verbatim!
• "There has been a progressive relaxation of the dress code governing formal court uniform and dress. In previous reigns, men not wearing military uniform wore knee breeches of an 18th-century design. Women's evening dress included obligatory trains and tiaras or feathers in their hair (or both). After World War I, when Queen Mary wished to follow fashion by raising her skirts a few inches from the ground, she requested a Lady-in-Waiting to shorten her own skirt first to gauge the King's reaction. King George V was horrified and Queen Mary's hemline remained unfashionably low. Subsequently, King George VI and Queen Elizabeth allowed daytime skirts to rise."Y

• Investitures, which include the conferring of knighthoods by dubbing with a sword, and other awards take place in the palace's Victorian Ballroom, built in 1854. At 123 by 60 feet (37 by 20 m), this is the largest room in the palace. It has replaced the throne room in importance and use. During investitures, the Queen stands on the throne dais beneath a giant, domed velvet canopy, which is known as a shamiana or a baldachin and was used at the coronation Durbar in Delhi in 1911. A military band plays in the musicians' gallery as the recipients of awards approach the Queen and receive their honours, watched by their families and friends.

  State banquets also take place in the Ballroom. These formal dinners take place on the first evening of a state visit by a visiting Head of State. On these occasions, often over 150 guests in formal "white tie and decorations", including tiaras for women, dine off gold plate. The largest and most formal reception at Buckingham Palace takes place every November, when the Queen entertains members of the foreign diplomatic corps resident in London. On this occasion all the state rooms are in use, as the Royal Family proceed through them [21] beginning their procession through the great north doors of the Picture Gallery. As Nash had envisaged, all the large, double-mirrored doors stand open, reflecting the numerous crystal chandeliers and sconces, causing a deliberate optical illusion of space and light.

  Smaller ceremonies such as the reception of new ambassadors take place in the "1844 Room". Here too the Queen holds small lunch parties, and often meetings of the Privy Council. Larger lunch parties often take place in the curved and domed Music Room, or the State Dining Room. On all formal occasions the ceremonies are attended by the Yeomen of the Guard in their historic uniforms, and other officers of the court such as the Lord Chamberlain.

• "The last major building work took place during the reign of King George V when, in 1913, Sir Aston Webb redesigned Blore's 1850 East Front to resemble in part Giacomo Leoni's Lyme Park in Cheshire. This new, refaced principal facade (of Portland stone) was designed to be the backdrop to the Victoria Memorial, a large memorial statue of Queen Victoria, placed outside the main gates. George V, who had succeeded Edward VII in 1910, had a more serious personality than his father; greater emphasis was now placed on official entertaining and royal duties than on lavish parties. George V's wife Queen Mary was a connoisseur of the arts, and took a keen interest in the royal collection of furniture and art, both restoring and adding to it. Queen Mary also had many new fixtures and fittings installed, such as the pair of marble Empire-style chimneypieces by Benjamin Vulliamy, dating from 1810, which the Queen had installed in the ground floor Bow Room, the huge low room at the centre of the garden facade. Queen Mary was also responsible for the decoration of the Blue Drawing Room. This room, 69 feet (21 m) long, previously known as the South Drawing Room, has one of Nash's finest ceilings, coffered with huge gilt console brackets."
• "While this may seem large, it is small when compared to the Russian imperial palaces in Saint Petersburg and at Tsarskoe Selo, the Papal Palace in Rome, the Royal Palace of Madrid, or indeed the former Palace of Whitehall, and tiny compared to the Forbidden City and Potala Palace. The relative smallness of the palace may be best appreciated from within, looking out over the inner quadrangle. A minor extension was made in 1938, in which the north-west pavilion, designed by Nash, was converted into a swimming pool."

• On 15 September 1940 an RAF pilot, Ray Holmes, rammed a German plane attempting to bomb the palace.[28] Holmes had run out of ammunition and made the quick choice to ram it. Both planes crashed and their pilots survived. This incident was captured on film. The plane's engine was later exhibited at the Imperial War Museum in London. Following the war the British pilot became a King's Messenger. He died at the age of 90 in 2005.Y details already in BBC ref.

  On VE Day—8 May 1945—the palace was the centre of British celebrations, with the King, Queen and the Princess Elizabeth, the future Queen, and Princess Margaret appearing on the balcony, with the palace's blacked-out windows behind them, to the cheers from a vast crowd in the Mall.Y</>

  On two occasions a man, Michael Fagan, was able to break into the palace.Y

• Today, Buckingham Palace is not only the weekday home of the Queen and Prince Philip but also the London residence of the Duke of York and the Earl and Countess of Wessex. The palace also houses the offices of the Royal Household and is the workplace of 450 people.

  Every year some 50,000 invited guests are entertained at garden parties, receptions, audiences, and banquets. The Garden Parties, usually three, are held in the summer, usually in July. The Forecourt of Buckingham Palace is used for Changing of the Guard, a major ceremony and tourist attraction (daily during the summer months; every other day during the winter).

  The palace is technically the monarch's property; both Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace and their art collections are held in trust for her successors and the nation. Many of the contents from Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, Kensington Palace and St James' Palace are known collectively as the Royal Collection; owned by the nation, they can, on occasions, be viewed by the public. The Queen's Gallery near the Royal Mews is open all year and displays a changing selection of items from the collection. The rooms containing the Queen's Gallery are on the site of the former chapel, which was damaged by one of the seven bombs to fall on the palace during World War II. The palace's state rooms have been open to the public during August and September since 1993. The money raised in entry fees was originally put towards the rebuilding of Windsor Castle following the 1992 fire which destroyed many of its state rooms.

• Some of the references that are there do not have page numbers. eg Ref 26, "Hedley, p."

1d neutral

Example

Use of unreferenced peacock words. For example, the word "famous", or "famously" is used three times without references.

2a

• Does not have a concise lead that summarized the topic, per lead. Much of the lead is not mentioned in the article body. The body of the article is not summarized in the lead.

Example from lead that is not from article

The building is occasionally still referred to as "Buck House".

The original early 19th-century interior designs, many of which still survive, included widespread use of brightly coloured scagliola and blue and pink lapis, on the advice of Sir Charles Long. King Edward VII oversaw a partial redecoration in a Belle epoque cream and gold colour scheme. Many smaller reception rooms are furnished in the Chinese regency style with furniture and fittings brought from the Royal Pavilion at Brighton and from Carlton House following the death of King George IV. The Buckingham Palace Garden is the largest private garden in London, originally landscaped by Capability Brown, but redesigned by William Townsend Aiton of Kew Gardens and John Nash. The artificial lake was completed in 1828 and is supplied with water from the Serpentine, a river which runs through Hyde Park.

Hopefully, these problems will soon be remedied by those with the necessary references. Someone who is able to edit the article needs to remove/change the POV phrases. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Ease of editing break

• Oh for goodness sake. I went to the article intending to remove the "famous" adjectives. However, all are appropriate and somewhat understated. These things are certainly famous in the context. But Mattisse, if the "famous" adjective/adverbs annoy you, why didn't you simply remove them, rather than whine here? It would take you all of 2 minutes. Let me invoke that famous maxim "so fix it"!--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
• A rather excellent article. No doubt it can be improved somewhat in the referening department (most things can). I encourage concerned people to keep working in that, but there is no real reason not to keep it as an FA.--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
• I can't make any sense of the nomination. 1c) The listed statements do not fall under WP:When to cite#When a source is needed, which is what criterion 1c links to. It does not strictly fall under WP:When to cite#When a source may not be needed, either. But so what? I have no doubt at all that most claims are easily verifiable by reading the books listed under References. Of course, if someone actually wants to go to the trouble of researching and writing all these inline citations, go ahead. 1d) It would be nice to know what the east wing balcony is famous for, but the other two uses of "famous" are justified by their context. I consider this a completely and utterly trivial matter. 2a) A lede can contain illustrative details that are not repeated in the body of the article, while still being a summary of the article under any reasonable interpretation of WP:LEDE.

Overall I am under the impression that the nomination isn't so much a contribution to the content-writing aspect of Wikipedia as to the MMORPG aspect. --Hans Adler (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: I don't appreciate it when comments that I have replied to are afterwards changed substantially and in such a way that it's hard to see what I did reply to. I am not sufficiently interested in the article to adjust my response to what seems to be a moving target. --Hans Adler (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC) PS: I am not sure if WP:REDACT applies on this kind of page, but I think it should. --18:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• I did not change anything. I merely added more examples to the list. I did add the statement that those of us who are not British may not consider all of this information "common knowledge", the reason given on the article talk page as to why requests by me and others for additional references should be ignored. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• I take it that you are going to mark your initial post as edited, with a new timestamp, once you have finished extending it? Unwatching this page, by the way. --Hans Adler (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• Don't know what the hang up is about time stamps, especially as you are Unwatching this page, by the way. But I have tried to change time stamps all over the place to satisfy you. Plus I signed the notifications, since that seems to be a big deal to everyone—although the FAR directions do not require it. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Giano, who wrote the article, has replied briefly and cogently to Mattisse's notification on his page. I suspect he prefers not to get involved in any arguments on FAR, so I might as well link to his statement here. (The "do you have a name" business is in reference to the fact that Mattisse didn't sign the notifications.) Bishonen | talk 18:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC).
• Didn't sign as I was trying to avoid triggering the insults and page blanking directed to me personally (and others) that have accompanied my attempts to improve the page, e.g.[2][3] [4][5][6] from cluttering up this FAR. His personal comments to me on his user page are for him. I do not watch his page and do not know what he said. I understand that it is "his" article, but I believe others can still suggest improvements, even if we are not allowed to edit the page itself. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Mattisse, if you've got a "history" with Giano, don't you think that nominating an article that you say is "his" for FAR is provocative, and disruptive, if not in danger of looking like trolling? If the article does require review (and it looks like many people don't think it does) then it should be brought here by someone else. And if it is borderline, then perhaps it would be less disruptive to leave it alone. Yes, Giano can be blunt, aggressive and uncivil at times (don't I know it), but this is looking to be like one case where he's being poked by a stick. I move to close this debate, improvements can be discussed on the article's talk page, and unless anyone other than Mattisse objects I'll close it after a bit.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:41, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Scott Mac (Doc)

• The only reason I have a "history" with Giano is because I tried to edit one of the articles that belongs to him so it is not a very long "history".[7] I spent a lot of time and effort trying to improve this article, offering suggestions on the talk page.
• Giano has a history of incivility with other editors. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Giano_II#Outside_view_by_Sam_Blacketer. The fact that he was uncivil to me is not a reason to dismiss my work, as he has a history of being uncivil to many editors.
• If you close this FAR without due process and a consideration of the merits of the problems I have listed, I will protest. You will be discouraging the maintenance of FA articles that no longer meet Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.
• This is a FA article, open to everyone to edit. FA editors are encouraging reevaluation of articles no longer meeting Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.
• You are not authorized to make a unilateral decision and close this FAR.

—Mattisse (Talk) 22:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Aawwww, one way to look at it is the fixes might be minor and easy, and it will be a successful return to Featured Glory and we can all get a warm fuzzzy feeling in our stomachs, so let's spread the love around with the royal fambly and see what needs a-tweakin' (it's always nice to see some material stay featured from a review here :) ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber (talk • contribs) 00:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• I agree that the fixes are not hard for someone with access to the sources and hope that it is done, rather than wasting time protesting. It would be helpful, additionally, to have a greater breadth of referencing, since surely there must be much material on a subject so well known in Britain. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Also, Blaikie, Thomas (2002). You look awfully like the Queen: Wit and Wisdom from the House of Windsor. London: Harper Collins. ISBN 0-00-714874-7 is "popular" collection of more or less trivia bits of information and not a scholarly work. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

There is an enormous wealth of material on the subject Mattisse, so I suggest you go to your local lending library and acquire it. Giano (talk) 07:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Giano, I don't have a "local lending library" available, but I will accept your suggestion and do what I can with the materials available to me. Thanks for letting me edit the article. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Mattisse, this edit sumary is insulting [8] and you are transparent. You have edited nothing added by me, which doubtless will be a huge dissapointment for you. I shall say no more. Giano (talk) 21:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This nomination is tendentious, if not vexatious. No doubt this article can be improved, all can. But this isn't "articles for improvement" it is a page for nominating things that are "not fit to remain FAs unless fixed". It seems that no one (bar possibly the nominator) is suggesting this article should be demoted if not immediately improved. Hence, the nomination should be closed, and improvement work (which Mattise seems unwilling to help with) should continue on the article and its talk page. There is really nothing more to be said here. If the fixes are "minor and easy" then there's no need for a debate - either fix them or move on.--Scott Mac (Doc) 09:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• User:Scott MacDonald, you apparently are new here and have mistaken notions about FAR. You have a misunderstanding of the FAR process. Perhaps it would help if you read the instructions. Here is a quotation. (Emphasis added in mine)

Featured article review (FAR)

In this step, possible improvements are discussed without declarations of "keep" or "remove". The aim is to improve articles rather than to demote them. Nominators must specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies. The ideal review would address the issues raised and close with no change in status. Reviews can improve articles in various ways: Articles may need updating, formatting, and general copyediting. More complex issues, such as a failure to meet current standards of prose, comprehensiveness, factual accuracy, and neutrality, may also be addressed.

The featured article director, Raul654, or his delegates Marskell and Joelr31, determine either that there is consensus to close during this first stage, or that there is insufficient consensus to do so and, thus, that the nomination should be moved to the second stage.

• I suggest that if you want to be a helpful reviewer, that you follow the instructions for FAR. Since you have an interest in Buckingham Palace, why not use the energy you use to complain on the improvement of the article instead. That way you would be contributing rather than obstructing. Is your stand that you think the article needs no improvement? —Mattisse (Talk) 16:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
  • All feature articles can be improved. But, yes, it is my stance that this article needs no improvement to remain at featured status - and currently you are the only one saying otherwise.--Scott Mac (Doc) 16:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

courtesy break

• I do not find that the items highlighted here substantially take away from the idea that this is a featured article, identifing en.wikipedia's best work to date. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
• I fixed the inconsistencies in the formatting of the references to the degree that I could. I cannot find missing page numbers nor missing references, except by referencing the Buckingham Palace official web site, which maybe I will do. Most of the info does seem to be at the official web site. I did a search on Google Scholar and there was only some pop books referenced: collections of anecdotes and such. I would think an article like this would have many good references at least comparable to the White House (which isn't even a FA) where a scholar can find more good references for indepth information. —Mattisse (Talk) 18:54, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
• I did some quick referencing; there's probably more that could be ref'd to some of those refs - because they were not the source of the text in the article, there are some ommissions - and I've marked them here. All in all, I think this remains an FA article; like anything it could do with some tightening of the referencing - but I've seen a lot of FAs that are in much worse condition. HTH Kbthompson (talk) 12:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Good work Kb. I will fix some minor MOS issues, and yes, there could be a few more inline citations, but all in all, seems that the brunt of the work has already been done and that any minor tweaks can be discussed on the talk page. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
• The article's a bit peacocky and chatty in places, but it's engaging, accurate and well-written so I think it should stay an FA. One thing that I am concerned with is the direct quote "like everybody's idea of a palace" at the very end of the article. Where is this from? A search of Google Books and Google itself doesn't turn up a source, and indeed slight variations on the quote give results which say that it isn't their idea of a palace (personally Neuschwanstein would be my idea of one). Please reference this! Throwawayhack (talk) 10:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
• My 1c: does anyone really think that sentences like "Goring defaulted on his rents; Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington obtained the mansion and was occupying it, now known as Goring House, when it burned down in 1674. Arlington House rose on the site—the southern wing of today's palace—the next year, and its freehold was bought in 1702." are common knowledge and do not need references? Xasodfuih (talk) 03:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are citations and NPOV. Joelito (talk) 02:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Delist - per concerns of Xasodfuih, Throwawayhack and my own concerns. I am surprised that no one rushed in to reference this article, and that an important and historical building is mostly referenced to its own website. Large swaths still remain completely unreferenced. Peacocky issues and a certain POV conversational tone characterizes the article. It is unclear if the material represents WP:UNDUE, as the article does not seem to give a complete history of the building, but rather to favor certain topics. —Mattisse (Talk) 03:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
• Delist. The presumed primary author says that the page is unstable[9]. This supports the view that the page has problems, since there should be no need for the page to be edited heavily once it is FA-status, and yet evidently editors still think the page can be improved. Mattisse says "I am surprised that no one rushed in to reference this article". Ordinarily, I would have done so, but as this FAR rapidly degenerated into a dispute, I did not nor will do. DrKiernan (talk) 15:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
• Delist. Referencing issues throughout, strongly agree with comment by Mattisse (talk · contribs), also the problems brought up by DrKiernan (talk · contribs) are troubling as well. Cirt (talk) 15:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment I provided online citations for a little under 50% of the material questioned (above, in the delisting proposal). I could not do more, as I do not have the source material for the article to hand and am not a prior author of the text. The discussion (above) spent far too long on issues relating to process; and too little on actually fixing the article. It should not be beyond the wit of (wo)man to improve this article to meet the criteria. As to too many references being to the palace website; this is an arm of UK government, does this mean Office for National Statistics figures are also unacceptable? Thanks Kbthompson (talk) 17:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
• Keep FA status. I can't see any reason to remove it. It's well-written and comprehensive, and not everything needs to be referenced — just material that is challenged or likely to be, and quotes. If someone wants to add refs, by all means do. And the thing about the lead — not everything in the lead has to be mentioned in the body. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 07:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
• Keep. Yet another of the Pedia's finest falls victim to the inline cite fetish. What sad little people with sad little minds are now editing the show.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 20:41, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
• Comment Prose is a funny thing - I think the fact that it is Buckingham Palace of all places can be an indicator straying into peacocky-ness is not such a bad thing. I am worried about instability, but have too much else on my plate to review fully. If I can make some time I will try and help out, it would be a shame to see this one slip off the FA radar. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
• Keep, don't actually see any issues that don't amount to a hill of beans. I agree with SlimVirgin. Hiding T 12:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
• Delist (Keep: references have now been added by User:Risker 16:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)). Relatively obscure historical facts that happened 300 years ago are still given without references. Xasodfuih (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

  With an attitude like this from the main editor of this article, I'm not surprised no progress has been made during this FAR. Xasodfuih (talk) 19:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

• Delist as Giano has made it quite clear that the article is good enough for him and no constructive changes to address the above points have been made. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
• Delist as per David Fuchs. Stifle (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. There's too much bad history and bile from old Giano adversaries in this FAR/FARC. Please don't take the opportunity to rush in and get some revenge, guys; you know who you are. (For my part I'm "recusing" from !voting, because I also have history—good history–with Giano.) Is it any wonder that Giano abandoned the whole discussion in disgust after snide and insulting comments like "Thanks for letting me edit the article, Giano" and "I understand that it is his article"? And please, everybody, don't let's be overly bureaucratic about the distinction between FAR and FARC. It's surely obvious that the people who have commented haven't taken much account of which section they're in, however much the rules tell them to do so. See Scott MacDonald's well-argued "Keep" case in the FAR section, for instance, and note that Scott hasn't commented in the FARC section at all. Please read the whole thing and ask yourselves: do you see a consensus for delisting this article? On which side do you see the most cogent arguments? Bishonen | talk 16:01, 10 March 2009 (UTC).
  • Giano has the uncanny ability to make anyone an adversary in one edit. Just click the link I gave above. Surely after that the opposition can be dismissed for "bad bile"; nice strategy for poisoning the well. As for the unreferenced stuff in the article itself, this isn't a science article where general info can be given without references. I'm okay with no references for Paracetamol#Structure_and_reactivity, since that info can be judged correctly by someone with two years of chemistry education. However, historical information, even in science articles needs referencing. I don't see how historical information is okay without references in an architecture article. Xasodfuih (talk) 00:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
• Reluctant Keep: I have removed the uncited quote from the end of the article and, although there are not enough citations for some of the history (see Xasodfuih's concerns above) I am certain that the facts given are correct. This is most certainly not an endorsement of the behaviour of any other participant in this or other debates on Buckingham Palace. Throwawayhack (talk) 02:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• Hold the fort the divided opinion and nature of some objections (i.e. getting references) suggests this might not be far off saving. I feel that these type of articles, i.e. broad, popular and probably something alot of schoolkids look at, are good ones to try and keep featured if at all possible. I will see what I can do in terms of referencing at least and broker some median path with prose issues. Hopefully these can be done in the next 10 days or so. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
• Do something! - Casliber, the article still is mostly unreferenced or referenced to the palace website; the few books chosen as references are not scholarly history or architecture books. Large areas of conversational, POV, and idiosyncratic text is unsourced. The article reads like an opinion piece or essay. There are page numbers missing. Most of the lead is not in the article. Do something to help the article. As many have said, this poorly sourced article, with no consistent history of the building, is the one that school children from around the world will see. No one appears to be editing it except vandals. Surely, you must have access to scholarly architectural and historical books. Do something to help the article. Do you not care enough to spend a little time improving it? —Mattisse (Talk) 23:56, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I need to actually get to a uni library first, which I will do this week. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Casliber, this was nomination January 31, 2009. This is March 16, 2009. Closing in on two months on the FARC. And you are just now thinking of getting to the library this week? I hope that all articles are given two months on this list, with little indication of change. I will note to you that someone just nominated Restoration comedy for FARC and the same disdainful attitude is being exhibited toward that nomination as toward this one.[10] This is the behavior you want to support, Casliber? —Mattisse (Talk) 03:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Nope, I wan't to support keeping this a Featured Article (I think central/notable articles such as this which I highly suspect are read by alot of schoolchildren are very important to keep featured. I am alot less qualified and familiar with the subject matter than many others, and I did think some other people may take this one by the scruff of the neck before now (which is why I didn't get involved until this point), but I am prepared to give it a go and I think the importance (to me) suggests the wait may be worthwhile. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Note how surprised the nominator of Restoration comedy is at such treatment.[11] You are supporting this type of treatment of editors at FARC? —Mattisse (Talk) 03:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't compare reasons and grounds for that nomination and this. I propose sticking to the article matter. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Taking the risk of posting to a discussion where good faith is in short supply. Let's remember our shared goal of providing a useful encyclopedia. This article received 67,000 page views last month. Hardly any of those readers know or care which editors wrote it, much less what our internal disagreements might be, but a part of that readership uses the article as a first stop in research and is not allowed to cite Wikipedia. Casliber has made a reasonable request that would serve those readers better. Thank you, Casliber, and wishing you success. Durova^Charge! 04:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• It is true that good faith is in short supply, since an RFC was opened on me, in part because of my nomination of this article, Buckingham Palace for RFAC. The RFC was back in January by Casliber. (In fact, you User:Durova, defended me in that RFC, saying that the charges were mere editorial disagreements.) That is why I am surprised that finally in March Casliber is just now getting to the library, having made this one of the premises of the RFC against me. But I join you in the expectation that Casliber will complete the references for this article, since in the meantime he has started numerous other articles and received many DYKs. Hence it is not for lack of time that this article has been neglected by Casliber. Please note the RFAC on Restoration comedy just now opened, and the disrespectful way the nominating editor is being treated there. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Well, yes those other things are going on. But are any of them pertinent factors to this FARC? The discussion here is in service to the article's readers. Let's remember that foremost. Durova^Charge! 05:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
• Mattisse, didn't you say you would avoid editing in featured article review so that the RFC would be closed? Quoting you from here, "I believe it is best that I desist completely from any involvement at FAC or FACR. In an effort to close this RFC, I will resolve not edit at FAC and FARC again, nor post on the FAC talk page." This page doesn't look like you have "desist(ed) completely", nor does a look at you contributions. For someone who isn't editing in FAR anymore, you sure are editing here a lot. Tex (talk) 15:41, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• I have not desisted. The RFC was brought in bad faith. The RFC was closed with no limitations on my behavior. I was invited back to edit FA pages by the FA delegate:Mattisse, I'm pleased to see you weighing in on some FAC reviews again; as several editors indicated on the RfC, your Wiki work is recognized and valued. I hope the New Year will bring positive things for you on Wiki: I welcome a fresh start with the past buried and hope you do, too. Regards, SandyGeorgia What does this have to do with whether Buckingham Palace meets the Featured article criteria? —Mattisse (Talk) 19:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Why did you come back almost a day later and add to your reply to me above without making a note of your addition? Besides the fact that what you just added actually took place on January 23, some 14 days before you promised to stop editing FAR, you really should not go back and change your comments after it has been sitting there for a while, as Risker just got through telling you. Seriously, just stop disrupting this FAR. Tex (talk) 19:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• There is nothing wrong with adding a comment with time stamp, just as you added your comment above my comment below. Risker was referring to changing a comment which I now know that an editor cannot copy edit a comment. I did not know that copy editing a comment was wrong. Now I do. That has nothing to do with adding a comment, in the manner you did also. You are disrupting this FARC by constantly criticizing me. I suggest that we all stick to the subject of improving the article. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• Now you're just being dense. Look at your response to my first edit to this page. The timestamp clearly says 19:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC). And yet, if we take a look at the page history, you added the part about Sandy "inviting" you to edit here at 15:40, March 17, 2009. You did not put a new timestamp on your addition. That is the problem. You should not change your comments almost a day later by saying Sandy "invited" you to edit here. Tex (talk) 20:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• I further suggest that Buckingham Palace fails 1(c) well-researched: it is characterized by a thorough and representative survey of relevant literature on the topic. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• I have written this page to FA standard once - some time ago I re-wrote because it was here on FARC and it retained its status accordingly. So I have written the page twice to FA standard. I have no intention of jumping through hoops every time the FA standards change or some little troll-on-the-make is bored. If anyone wants thinks I made the facts up, then they can read (in their in own time and at their own expense Harris, John; de Bellaigue, Geoffrey; & Miller, Oliver (1968). Buckingham Palace. London:Nelson. ISBN 0-17-141011-4. Which was the principal reference used, and yes, it is actually very scholarly, so matter what some verbally incontinent little troll chooses to imagine or say. It was not the only reference, but it contains all there is to know and is the definitive book on the subject. If Wikipedia is incapable of having an FA on one of the world's most famous buildings, a page that it has approved to its own FA standards at least twice then God help it because I cannot and I won't. I have frequently reverted the rubbish that has been added, as do many others on an almost thrice daily basis. This is one of the most vetoed and watched pages on wikipedia - is probably the most reliable. If you people are too stupid to see that, then demote it and go and play with pages on animes or whatever else it is that grabs your attention. If this page is demoted it will sink into the shit - that I guarantee. That should at east keep the trolls happy. Giano (talk) 21:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Casliber's promise Casliber (talk · contribs) promised one week ago to fix up the article. I am sure he will fulfill his promise, so you need not worry, Giano, and get so upset, just because he has not yet edited the article. I'm sure the article can remain here until he gets around to it, even if it is several months from now. I do not think an admin can pass it in good conscience in its current state. However, there is every sign that admins will leave it here for as long as it takes. I might try editing it again, since you suggested it. I could move most of the lead, which is never mentioned in the article body, into the article. —Mattisse (Talk) 12:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Mattisse, I and many others are finding your persistant trolling and baiting tiresome and disruptive. If you are hoping to provoke me to anger you are wasting your time, you are so obvious it is not even worth making a crusade out of your edits and behaviour. I suggest you go am play elsewhere, pick on some other unfortunate. Giano (talk) 18:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• Comment (FAR closer) Nothing more needs to be said on the FAR at this moment. The cards have already been laid on the table. The only part of the landscape that is changeable at the moment in the contents of the article page. If/until that happens, extra comments won't change the future status of the article. I'm not on the AC anymore, but I doubt their opinion will be improved by anything they read here, so there's no point carrying on any more as it won't have any effect on the status of the article. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
• Comment: I've been to the reference library tonight, surrounded by books (a truly wonderful way to spend an evening), and have now added references to almost all of the areas identified as having issues. The exception is in the final section, where I believe most can be referenced to multiple sources, many online. There's still a bit of tidying to be done with the added refs, but I will try to get to them tomorrow or Thursday. Risker (talk) 05:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
• Update: All material from lead is now also in body of text; referencing much improved and I am happy with the flow and tone of the prose. A few more refs would be good, and I will seek to find these (Risker beat me to the library :)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Revisiting: Lead

• Material in footnote 1 is repeated in section "First houses on the site".
• "royal entertaining": I prefer "royal/official hospitality" as "entertaining" can be misread as a verb
• "The original early 19th-century interior designs... Sir Charles Long": convoluted, as the phrase "on the advice..." relates to "use" rather than "pink lapis".
• Visitor numbers can be confused with tourists; both could be given.

History

• "14 of their 15 children were born here." We're not there.
• "even though it is at Buckingham Palace that they present their credentials and staff to the Queen upon their appointment." Convoluted.
• Perhaps mention that William IV didn't want it, and suggested it as a home for Parliament after the Palace of Westminster was destroyed by fire?

Home of the monarch

• "annually following Trooping the Colour." prefer "annually after Trooping the Colour." (The two verbs together is confusing)
• "Before Prince Albert's demise, Queen Victoria was known to openly enjoy music and dancing," as I believe I said before during the last FAR, she enjoyed them afterwards as well.
• "musicians entertained at Buckingham Palace." they were entertained as well as entertaining.
• please check "has 18th-century wall paper, which was supplied in 1817" (1817 is 19th-century)
• Paragraph "The original early 19th-century ... cream and gold colour scheme." is exactly repeated in the lead. I don't want to read the same thing twice.
• 1844 room's redecoration for Nicholas I is repeated.
• Debs were presented in the gardens latterly rather than the throne room. Edward VIII, for example, called off the presentation of debutantes in 1936 because it was raining.

Modern history

• Placing this section below the rest creates a structural problem, as the bombing of the palace chapel is mentioned before the main paragraphs on the war.
• The paragraph on George V's "enforced abstinence" is bias. He is also reported to have been abstemious and frugal anyway, and not drinking was of little consequence to his lifestyle. He is also reported to have been happy to have done his duty, and is not known to have complained about it. It is unfair to just give one opinion out of several. "The King's children were photographed at this time serving tea to wounded officers" is trivial.

I have been asked to provide sources for opposing viewpoints:

Colin Matthew in 'George V (1865–1936)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004: "The king normally wore uniform during the war and resided in Buckingham Palace, his lifestyle, never extravagant, being even more frugal than usual." and the Royal Librarian, Sir Owen Morshead, quoted in Matthew: "Moderate in diet, he drank hardly at all"

Mike Ashley in The Mammoth Book of Kings & Queens, Robinson, London, 1998, p. 698: "The King did what he could to keep morale high. He shared in the rationing, not wishing to be shown special treatment."

The Story of Buckingham Palace by Marguerite D. Peacocke (Odhams Press: London, 1951): "...king and queen shared in their country's privations and were not content with mere token economies...The royal cellars were much depleted during the First World War, for the King distributed hundreds of bottles of wine to hospitals for wounded soldiers, while smaller quantities of rarer wines were sent to those wine sales held at Christie's in aid of the Red Cross." [so, the wine cellars couldn't have been locked]

James Pope-Hennessy Queen Mary p.495 "Buckingham Palace was put upon an austerity footing"; p. 508 "By 1917...the King and Queen took the lead, still further reducing the already austere wartime standard of the Royal table by adopting rationing." DrKiernan (talk) 15:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

When I have time I shall dig out the references I am looking for, either the official bio of Queen Mary or George V, whichever it was, I recall it was written with the full co-operation of their children who recalled both their parents cheating on the no alcohol ban, I implictly recall a quote of the King drinking port privatly in his study after dinner each evening and the Queen champagne. Furthermore the King was furious over the ban and felt he had been duped into it, by I forget who (a Government Minister), but I will add it as soon a I re-find the book. Giano (talk) 16:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not question the verifiability of the material currently in the article; I am questioning its neutrality. (I do not know of a source for the material not in the article about the king's secret port and the queen's champagne.) DrKiernan (talk) 08:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see it as "un neutral) if it is what happened. Your "Marguerite D. Peacocke" writing in 1950 soundls a little sycophantic and gushing don't you think? Anything written about the British Royal Familywill never please all the people all of the time - so what is the answer - have no pages on them at all - or pages that just give basic factual details of their hatches, matches and dispatches? Giano (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't favour sycophancy any more than I favour opprobrium.

I have struck my remove. I may or may not try to edit the paragraph myself. If not, we can always argue about this again when the article is renominated for FAR again next year. DrKiernan (talk) 09:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• "it had been deliberately targeted by the Nazis": this is disputed. People in the palace thought it was deliberately targeted, but there is no evidence whatever.
• "On two occasions a man, Michael Fagan, was able to break into the palace" Looks awkward placed in a single, out-of-context paragraph by itself.

I'd move this now expanded bit down into "public access".

It is of course a very strong article, but I would only consider striking my remove "vote!" if the issues around neutrality and reliability are resolved. The prose, structural and comprehensiveness issues are less concerning (given the strength of the rest of the article), and are given here more in the way of a "peer review" rather than a comment on FA-status. DrKiernan (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

• (I have copied DrKiernan's comments to the talk page to avoid further clogging the FAR page as some a re simple and some may require some discussion) Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

• Keep I think the article is near enough now to be kept. It is not the subject of an edit war any more, all material from lead is duplicated within the body of the article, and the referencing is vastly improved. The prose looks fine to me. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
• Keep From only a scan of the density of citations and their quality, which seems to have been the main issues. I've read this (with Irish gritted teeath) a few times in the past and it always struck me as skilfully writen. Good save, I believe, Casliber. Ceoil (talk) 19:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
• Keep I echo Ceoil - Casliber has done some excellent work here. Cirt (talk) 02:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

(shuffles feet and looks at floor) 'twas Risker who actually did the gruntwork and got the books from the library, and Giano pointed us in the right direction, an' DrK raised some points, so a good effort all round... Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.