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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Confusion (album)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 15 August 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Confusion (album) edit

Confusion (album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Dan56 (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it is well-written, properly sourced, reasonably illustrated, and as comprehensive as possible of the article's topic; all sources on and related to the topic have been found and exhausted. Short, but sweet article. Dan56 (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Nick-D edit

Comments Oppose This is a solid article, but I think that it needs more background on the development of the album and information on how it was originally received, including in Nigeria:

  • The background section should provide some information on Fela Kuti's pre-1970s career to put his change of focus into perspective and explain his style of music (a paragraph or so would do the job)
  • Where and when was the album recorded, and can anything be said about the process of recording it?
  • ""pafuka" means "all over" or "finished". Kuti also used the interjection "o" to add emphasis" - this seems out of place
  • Those phrases are prevalent in the song. Do you suggest rephrasing it or removing altogether? Dan56 (talk) 11:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This material is provided without any context at all: it just suddenly appears at the end of a sentence. Nick-D (talk) 10:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can anything be said about the critical or commercial reception the album received when it was released? (I was expecting to see some information about sales, reception by Fela Kuti's fans and reviews by contemporary critics).
  • Also, all the critical reviews are from western reviewers: how was, and is, the album regarded in Nigeria? Nick-D (talk) 11:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately this is all there is; music journalism is really a Western thing/development, and hey, it's a third world country, what can you do. I don't know about fans. There aren't really ever reliable sources for fan reception in album articles. Added the paragraph on background. Dan56 (talk) 12:06, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That all strikes me as being highly unlikely I'm afraid. Nick-D (talk) 10:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good job overall- Nick-D is right, though, needs much more Nigerian background and criticism from the source. Actually, criticism in Nigeria has a long and storied history, and please lose the casual (though i'm sure not intended) racism: "it's a third world country, what can you do." Fela came from that third world country, so it also makes no sense. When you look for Nigerian criticism, replace the word with "Naija," the preferred word for the country by Nigerians. You might want to start with Benson Idonije of The Guardian. Check Naija.com, Bellanaija.com, Y! Magazine, 234next.com. All good places to start. A little more effort on the source-criticism, Dan56, and I think you'll be pretty damn good. Kudos!

Venuzza67 (talk) 21:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not racist bro. And yes, that was the reference, Fela is from that third-world country, so it makes sense. And all sources on this topic have been exhausted, whether you want to believe it or not. I wouldn't have nominated this article if it wasn't as comprehensive on the topic as possible. If Nigeria has a long and storied history, it isn't evident from the sources available. And I addressed Nick-D's concern regarding the background section. It was convenient to be less on the article's topic in a background section with a larger perspective on Kuti in general, but unfortunately, I cant manufacture Nigerian music criticism of the album. I don't know what "Naija" has to do with Googling sources; typing in "Fela Kuti" with "Confusion" (or the album's year, details, etc.) would have done the same if there really are online sources for reviews by Nigerian sources. According to this, the only FA music articles under the Africa wikiproject are "We Are the World" and some Madonna song, so I'm not surprised with how limited those sources appear to be. Dan56 (talk) 22:01, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to "And all sources on this topic have been exhausted", is it really the case that not a word was written on this album by an artist with an international profile at the time of its release? I would have thought that the lively music media in the UK would have covered it at the time. I doubt that Fairfax's book in 1993 was the first time anyone had written about this album. I'm afraid that I'm going to shift to a formal oppose. Nick-D (talk) 08:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and I've searched all kinds of variations in GoogleNews, Books, and web search of the album title with Kuti's name and the release year, or the record label, one of the credited musicians such as Tony Allen, etc. (such as these: [2], [3], [4]). I also searched each line from the song to see if a commentary of its quote would coincide in an article. I hope you're not opposing because you don't believe me. I would understand it if it was because the article lacks the material to establish its notability with enough third-party coverage. It simply does not have such coverage of the additional material you're referring to. Also, this isn't as surprising to me, since Fela never charted in the UK; attention from the music press back then would likely have helped it chart, such as in the case of Marquee Moon (#Commercial performance). Even in a search for just "Fela Kuti", there's nothing at GoogleNews for that decade ([5]) and almost nothing at Books ([6]). At Rock's Backpages, which archives notable UK magazines, a search for "Fela Kuti" in that decade also came up with nothing, except a '72 article that seemed to be written only because of Ginger Baker having worked with Kuti ([7]). Again, I wouldn't have expected much Western attention to be paid to a Nigerian artists during the '70s, but I nonetheless searched as extensively as possible. Dan56 (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't aware that such a reference as Rock's Backpages exists, and your search of it alone is sufficient for me to drop the oppose. I'm not prepared to support without Nigerian sources, but would have no objections at all to seeing this promoted. Nick-D (talk) 10:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Eduemoni edit

  • Comment - The article is solid, very well written and sourced, but does the article already reached its content limit? Ain't there any information or content that should be added to it? I think I'm missing something, but where is its recording and producing info? Shan't it have its own section? There is a section about release and reception, but I think this is misleading, there isn't textual information about its chart performance. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 22:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, the liner notes don't even list where it was recorded. The album did not chart, upon release or reissue. Dan56 (talk) 22:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The recording info is widely known. Kuti recorded all his studio work between 1970 and '77 in the studio in his commune, the Kalakuta Republic.Venuzza67 (talk) 02:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was not widely known enough for a published source to explicitly say this album was recorded there. Dan56 (talk) 02:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a fact, Dan56, known by anyone with the slightest awareness of Fela's political life. If you look at early prints of the album, including the French versions, Kalakuta is clearly listed. If I knew how to upload a photo, I'd show you. But I can't do all your work for you. Fela also recorded during the same period at Abbey Road, but that was live with an audience. And he was working still with Ginger Baker in Lagos. But "Confusion" had all the main tracks recorded in Kalakuta, and the mixing was done in LA. Also, you should note more clearly that Confusion marks the first time Fela played sax on record. Are there any editors with a bit more background on Fela to help round out Dan's article? He's doing a fairly decent job, but he needs the finer points.

Thanks. Venuzza67 (talk) 03:18, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What he needs, to add the information noted here, are sources. Original research isn't going to cut it. Flat Out let's discuss it 09:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the venue to continue your personal attacks towards me (my talk page can be found here) If you have any comments or criticism based on reliable published sources rather than original research, please offer it. Otherwise, neither your personal claims of what is fact (WP:NOTTRUTH) nor your condescending tone are helpful here. Here is an upload of the original French LP from Discogs. Kalakuta is clearly not listed. The original Nigerian sleeve appears only to show the credits and a lyrics sheet. If you have an edition that verifies your claim, you can upload a photo of it through this (licensing info wouldn't be important since it would be a temporary upload either way). Dan56 (talk) 04:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The recording studio, in this case, has political and social ramifications aside from just being a logistical concern. It's easily verifiable information- Fela was recording at the commune- Gentleman and then Confusion. He also did some work at A.R.C., ginger Baker's place in Lagos at the same time, but not on his own album. It's vital to introduce the political chaos surrounding this album, even the incident with Paul Mccartney, in which Fela confronted him and accused him of "stealing" from African musicians, as well as Fela's increasing militancy, allignment with the Black Panthers (via an intro from his girlfriend), is It may be a bit beyond the scope of your article, but Mccartney's refusal to record with Baker was cited by a Kuti associate as a precipitating force in Kuti's escalating mental anguish regarding his ill feelings toward Europe, even though Kuti had enjoyed London for most of his youth. "Confusion," the song (and, therefore album) is concerned exactly with these themes, and tied to Kuti's dissapointment in the lack of African response to what he saw as urban oppression. To leave out the recording information is a glaring omission- by recording at the compound, Kuti was making a political statement. He didn't want to work at EMI in Lagos anymore- and declared the commune independent of Nigeria. This led to the raid in '77 in which Kuti's mother was injured and died shortly after. Follow Kuti's engineer, Emmanuel Odenusi, to all the the recording information. Odenusi only worked at the commune with Kuti, later becoming a fixture at EMI. You should definitely include that he premiered his sax playing on the album- and, although he wasn't much of a player, on sax or trumpet, it's historic and important, in that it showed his increasing emergence as a leader and organizer, and, in a tangential though some say critical way, his emergence as a sociopolitical threat to the government. It's precisely because of Kuti's belief that venue, ie., independence, mattered, that the Nigerian soldiers destroyed the studio and commune. By destroying his "independence," they hoped to crush the threat. The reason I said to use the term "Naija," is because it will bring up more sources that are Nigerian, due to the fact that Nigerians tend to favor the term Naija.

Thanks Venuzza67 (talk) 15:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • WP:NOR, and Google already recognizes "Naija"/"NIgerian" as shown in this search, so it would not have made a difference. Dan56 (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Tomica edit

  • After reading the article I feel confident to support. The article is well written, sourced and thorough. What I noticed only, can you provide which studio album [by number] is it? Cheers! — Tomíca(T2ME) 17:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No sources mentioned the chronology; fela.net shows a discography and catalog page, but it's too vague to cite; for instance, there are 3 1974 albums with no discernible chronological order. I think if I introduced a guess in the article like "fifth studio album", it would easily be challengeable. Dan56 (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Check this out Dan for Chronology- http://www.scaruffi.com/vol1/kuti.html

Venuzza67 (talk) 03:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I already incorporated Scaruffi's page in the article (specifically his quote "one of his most challenging..." in the reception sec.), but it doesn't delineate the chronology--all the boldfaced titles aren't suggested by him to be complete, let alone in order, as he introduces his critique of the recordings by saying "They include...", meaning part of a whole. Scaruffi also listed the year for Confusion as 1975, so it's safe to say he's no Martin C. Strong or anything. The impression I get from MOS:ALBUM#Lead is that the chronological description in the lead is a generality, but not essential, such as with The Basement Tapes. Dan56 (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Flat Out edit

I support the nomination of this article. The article is very well written, and well sourced and referenced. I agree that some in depth analysis of inception, recording and production aspects of the album would balance out the article but I accept that this is beyond the limits of the available sources. Good job. Flat Out let's discuss it 09:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the only other suggestion- have you got your hands (or eyes) on the booklet included with the new Ginger Baker curated compilation? Or the Chris May booklet in the Kniting Factor edition-- I'm not sure it's specific regarding the production dates etc, but it may shed light. Venuzza67 (talk) 10:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The booklet is also in the Baker box set; it has an intro by Questlove about his love of Kuti's music, lyrics sheet and track analysis, 5 or 6 pages of photos, a general bio of Kuti by May, and some reprinted labels for LP fetishists. Doesn't say nothing new that isn't online, specifically May's verbatim article for All About Jazz, which I already used. Trust me dude, I've covered my bases. Dan56 (talk) 11:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Driveby suggestion—short tracklists like this one are best laid out simply, without the template. The template stretches across the width of the screen, meaning that in a widescreen monitor, there's a foot between the song title and its duration.—indopug (talk) 04:01, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Venuzza67 edit

I think this is a very good article, but not in the same league as many of the Featured articles I've read. Dan56 has said that production information regarding dates and location are not available, and it seems he's been thorough in checking that out. Unfortunately, that would be one of the main reasons to read a Wikipedia article on the album, and its omission, while understandable, is glaring. The article is also a bit confused, ironically. It never gives you a clear and direct sense of what made this album important, although, when reading it, you feel the answer may be buried somewhere in all the information provided. All in all, a very good job, but just not good enough to be labelled "The Best Wikipedia Has to Offer." Venuzza67 (talk) 18:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:ALBUM lists a recording/production as a possible section that should only be created if information for it is available. It is not. Third-party coverage determines notability, so the lack of coverage suggests this is not pertinent or a major detail. This article is not omitting this information, third-party coverage is omitting it; the criteria at WP:FACR regards the article. If this article is "confused", how is it "very good"? If the confusion concerns the writing or structure, please elaborate. Also, if it's any consolation, Jihad (song) is an FA-article without such information. Dan56 (talk) 02:47, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think you make excellent points. I meant it is "very good," because the content and information provided is very good. It's just that I wish it could be stated a bit more directly and simply why the album is worth listening to. The reason I think it doesn't quite rise yet to "Featured" status is because, as good as that information is, it feels very much like you must already be familiar with Kuti to understand why the album is important. I wish the opening, for instance, could somehow convey to a casual reader the pure enjoyment of the album, rather than "Confusion is a commentary on the confused state of post-colonial Lagos and its lack of infrastructure...", which is wonderful, but possibly a bit off-putting as an opener. I don't mean to belabor the production information point. It's just that, considering the intense political and social unrest and intrigue, the 'where' and 'how' of the actual recording seems especially pertinent. Could you write something regarding why it may be so difficult to find? Without, I suppose, it being mere conjecture. I know it may not be possible, but if anyone could, i would think you could. Also, is there some interesting reason, perhaps other than time period, that "Gentleman" has been grouped with it? Do you think there is some significance?

Thanks! Venuzza67 (talk) 07:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is an encyclopedic article, not a music review. I think you should familiarize yourself with WP's core policies; the point of articles is to summarize a topic within the scope of its coverage, not endorse the topic to readers. Again, you're qualifying your praise ambiguously with something critical like "off-putting" (how?) Is it off-putting to word material in a way that sticks to the source and in a concise, neutral tone (WP:TONE, WP:ATE) ? If you believe this article is omitting a major detail that has been covered by reliable sources, please phrase your criticism that way. Third-party coverage determines what is pertinent or not. You're literally asking me to conjure up material that doesn't exist. I'm not a reliable third-party source, and this is not the venue to be asking me novel questions that aren't covered by such sources. I would appreciate it if you'd make your comments based on the criteria. This entire review process keeps getting away from the scope of WP:FACR. Dan56 (talk) 07:24, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Iknow23 edit

Support
As one not familiar with this material, I must say that I found it to be quite engaging and informative. After all, someone that already knows all this wouldn't be coming to Wikipedia to read it. My editing experience consists to a large extent to formatting corrections; such as, song titles in quotes and album titles in italics, number and date formatting and a 'specialty' in correcting statements such as 'released to radio' > 'sent to radio', etc. One could say that I possess a 'trained eye' for such. I say all this to point out that, amazingly (to me) I find NO discernible errors here. In ALMOST EVERY case upon my first visit to a page, I make 10-12 edits. Here I can make NONE. Structure and everything seems fine to me. I have read all the prior comments and replies and believe that some improvements have been made as a result thereof true to Wikipedia being a community effort. I commend the nominator in I believe quite painstaking efforts to discover the material requested in other's comments. I commend the other's for requesting same in their efforts to improve the article further. But If such material just doesn't exist, well that's it then. I see no good reason to deprive the Wiki readers 'at large' the pleasure of discovering this article.—Iknow23 (talk) 03:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by 2Flows edit

Comment I was not familiar with the artist's work before reading this article and found it quite informative. This is definitely a good article, well-written and well-formatted and I think it meets all criteria for being a featured article. My only concern, however, is the point for being comprehensive. As some of the comments above stated, the article does not have information about critical reception from the artist's country or any reception at all for the first 20 years after its initial release. Also information about the recording process and where it was recorded would have been nice. While I believe this is not due to the lack of research, it is still a point that is bothering me a bit. The article is rather short, but it is well-written and focused on the topic, so this is not a problem. The criteria defines the length should be "suitable for the subject", which is true in this case. There are a few other minor things, which I've listed below:

  • The review from All About Jazz is by Derrick A. Smith, who is NOT credited as part of the article editor's staff [8], which most likely means he is a non-professional blogger, since the site includes articles by a number of volunteers. That's why I believe it is not suitable to be included.
  • Maybe you can add an Album ratings template to summarize the ratings it received from critics, so the reader can see at a glance that the album has received acclaim even without reading the whole paragraph.

Overall, I wouldn't oppose to see this being a FA. 2Flows (talk) 17:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't think Smith is a part of their staff anymore, which is why he's not listed there (the sections for "Top Reviewers" and "Top Authors" shows those who have been "published in" or "reviewed in 2013"); according to this, Smith hasn't written for them since 2000. With regards to the ratings template, there are only four reviews that gave it a score, three of which were not for Confusion, but for the two-album package of Confusion and Gentleman when it was reissued. It just wouldn't seem economic or kosher when the ratings can be said plainly in prose and when the few that have ratings are not for the album specifically. Dan56 (talk) 01:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Media check edit

Media check - all OK (fair-use, CC 2.0). Sources and authors provided.

Comments by SilkTork edit

  • "He recorded the album after choosing to emphasize his African heritage and nationalism in his music." This statement in the lead is a summary of the Background section. I have two queries here. Is the amount of detail in the Background section appropriate? It seems a fairly general summary of a long period in Fela Kuti's career, and I'm not quite getting why this album needs such a background. The background starts in 1961 - and the album was made in 1974. Also, I am not quite clear on what the statement is saying. Initially it sounds like this was the first album in which he emphasized his African heritage - yet the background explains that he had been doing this for some time. It appears from the summary, that he had been exploring his African heritage for quite some time. Why does the article choose to draw particular attention to that for this album. Is this album particularly significant in regards to that matter? Critics appear to find Zombie his most notable from the period. If so, could that be explained a bit more in the article? SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought so too, but I only wrote the first paragraph after it was requested in Nick-D's comments above. The second paragraph is based on the Fairfax book's chapter that ties that information to this album. Dan56 (talk) 11:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the whole the article appears neutral, though the Release and reception section has nothing but praise. It would be useful to have balanced critical commentary. Are all the retrospective review purely positive? It does sometimes happen that way - if, so, no worries. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, it seems unanimously positive. Dan56 (talk) 11:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also note that all the critical comments are retrospective. It can be hard to find contemporary reviews. I've had a look, and all I can find is a contemporary review of Zombie by Robert Christgau, so it may not be possible to find contemporary reviews. Was the record released outside Africa in 1974? If not, then looking for contemporary reviews would be even more difficult! SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:14, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was released in France in 1974 ( at least according to Discogs); no contemporary reviews still. Actually, even that Christgau review you're referring to originally comes from his 1981 book on '70s albums. Dan56 (talk) 11:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article has an appropriate reference section and uses consistent citations. SilkTork ✔Tea time 12:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Media. The album cover and the song sample are OK. I think the use of the market image is questionable, and given that it is tagged with a personality warning, the article may be better off without it. SilkTork ✔Tea time 12:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On a market persons have only a limited or no expectation of privacy in most jurisdictions. In that context the tag is only intended as warning for re-users, not necessarily as sign of a problem with the image itself (Commons hosts a ton of images of crowds of people). GermanJoe (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article appears well-researched - each independent source I check, verifies items I read in the article. I have not checked all the sources used in the article, as most of those are not linked to an internet source. But books, such as Fela the Life and Times of an African Musical Icon by Michael E Veal, verify the content. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The phrase "trading market" to refer to the Lagos market is used twice. In the lead it is linked to Financial market. Is it specifically a financial market? The lyrics refer to men selling at the roadside, and a white man buying "the thing" from them, but using different currencies, which causes confusion. The image used is of a street market rather than a financial market. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Linking is not part of the FA criteria - though I wonder if linking common words such as infrastructure, studio album, reissued, New York City, and improvise, etc, is needed? SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure if "infrastructure" is common enough or if New York City is what WP:OVERLINK would deem as a major location, but I usually link studio album since the infobox does so, and both reissue and improvisation are music-related and seem more technical terms in this context (WP:UNDERLINK). Dan56 (talk) 08:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Walter Görlitz edit

  • Support I was asked to comment so I will. As most other editors have commented, it's a solid article and while some of the sections could use expanding, material for a non-Western album release isn't always easy to come by, particularly pre-Internet. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by HotHat edit

  • Support I was not solicited by the nominator of this FAC, even though we have worked together closely before on some articles. I would have to say this is done to the utter highest quality that an article like this one could be done up to with the information out on the internet. In addition, it greatly exceeds the criteria for FA anyway. An excellent job Dan56, my hats are off to you on this one.HotHat (talk) 08:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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