Pequod76

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John of Patmos

Ciao sono colui che ha segnalato su FB la mancanza della voce it:Sette sigilli, a tal uopo, visto il tuo impegno sulla pagina, ti segnalo anche la mancanza della voce sull'autore (presunta, anzi ci vorrebbe una nota), del Book of Revelation (chissà perché da noi si chiama it:Apocalisse di Giovanni?). ;-) --Kasper2006 (talk) 06:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Purr purr....nice seeing you on IRC.

—Theopolisme 00:54, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

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Translation it -> en

Hello Pequod76, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. I had to revert your recent change to Catholic Church sexual abuse cases involving a translation of an Italian protest sign. In your version, the English phrase means close to the opposite of what is intended by the Italian. (I realize that the original translation wording is not yours, and in fact that wording has been present, in slightly altered form, for at least three years and that you are merely restoring it; nevertheless, it has been incorrect for that entire period, so please do not restore the incorrect translation.)

Most translators translate only into their native language, not from their native language into the foreign language. That's what I try to do, and if I have to translate in the other direction, I would ask for help from a native speaker to make sure I didn't miss some subtlety. I urge you to do the same. We could create a good partnership, if you like, where I could ask you on your talk page about the Italian half of some translation I was working on, and you could ask me likewise about the English on my talk page, whenever you had a question. I'd be happy to do that, if you would. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 02:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Hi! Thanks for your help. I understand your concern about an Italian translating in English and I apologize for my misuse of the expression "to care for" (that I have unfortunately "inherited", as you saw, by former versions of the article). "To deal with" is perfect, but I have some observations about the formulation of "why doesn't he go deal with...?". Maybe it would be better "he should go deal with...". "Che si occupi" is a subjunctive, that we use as an imperative mood for third persons ("(Che) Dio salvi la Regina" = "God save the Queen"). It is well possible that a question fits to the meaning as much as "should": I wrote you to express my doubt, but with the aim of learning. I accept enthusiastically your proposed partnership, even though I hardly contribute to en.wiki: if you need some insight about Italian stuff, just ask me. :) Thanks again for your help and for fixing the caption. --Pequod (talk) 02:40, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Pequod. I totally understand the imperative sense of the subjunctive here (which is nearly identical with similar usage in Spanish and French) but thanks for pointing it out. There is nothing wrong with "He should go deal with..." grammatically, but it doesn't have the same punch and imperative force as "che si occupi." In English, the negative interrogative, "Why doesn't he...?" in this context is neither a question, nor a negative logically, although it is grammatically; rather, it is to be understood as an imperative declaration, with the negative interrogative acting as a "wink" to "soften" the rude statement, while really not softening it at all.

Some examples: 1. Why don't you take a long walk off a short pier? Meaning: "Go drown yourself." 2. Why don't you take a flying jump? Meaning: "Go jump into the lake." 3. Why don't you go eff^{4-letter word goes here} yourself? Meaning: "Go eff yourself." So, I find that the subjunctive imperative sense of "che si occupi di" fits very nicely with the negative interrogative. If the sign instead read, (Il) dovrebbe s'occupare di.. the translation "He should go deal with..." would be both accurate, and have the right mood. The latter is not wrong as a translation of "che si occupi", but it lacks that softening of the direct imperative, which slyly softens it grammatically, while not really softening it propositionally or logically. In Italian, the subjunctive provides just the slightest bit of surface respect to the Pope while nevertheless using an imperative mood, which is something that is not done in the indicative mood to the Pope. In English, the negative interrogative "Why doesn't he..." provides that identical softening, to give a modicum of surface respect grammatically speaking, while in reality he is telling the Pope what to do.

Does this make sense? It's late, and I'm fading. Mathglot (talk) 06:21, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mathglot: 'Morning! :) Yes, it makes sense to me. Actually I have learned something about the English negative interrogative, that exists in Italian as well ("Perché non si occupa dei suoi preti...?"). And just because it exists in Italian that I was looking for something different (as the placard don't use it). Also (but just to share some opinions), the subjunctive does not have this bit, however slight, of surface respect: as we say "vai/andate al diavolo", we also say "Che vada (lui/lei) al diavolo"/"Che vadano al diavolo". But you are right, it is the same for the Spanish "¡(Qué) viva Zapata!" or the French "Que Dieu te benisse". All these "che"/"que" imply a "voglio"/"quiero"/"je veux". (Sorry, I am fastidious at least once a day). Here, the subjunctive is a mere substitute for the imperative, that lacks of forms for the third persons. A phrasing with that surface politeness is present in formulations as "Hai voglia di andare a comprare il pane?" or "Ti andrebbe di andare a comprare il pane?": these are imperatives in disguise, much used addressing second persons. But this is not to say that your translation doesn't work. Lastly, we would say "Si dovrebbe occupare di" or "Dovrebbe occuparsi di", but not "Dovrebbe s'occupare di", that sounds Frenchesque to me. :D Thank you for your host of examples, I've really liked the one about the pier. XD --Pequod (talk) 11:05, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

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Storia dei concetti

Buongiorno, Pequod, ben ritrovato. Prima di farmi infinitare da Gianfranco, ho pingato te e Frognall con la richiesta di completare il lavoro sulla Storia dei concetti in una mia sandbox. Il lavoro non era molto avanzato - anzi, era appena iniziato - ma la mancanza di una voce su Conceptual history è una lacuna grave di it.wiki ed è anche una lacuna incomprensibile: molti studiosi interessanti da noi hanno recepito o comunque interagito con quell'esperienza, penso a Pierangelo Schiera, Alessandro Biral, Carlo Galli e Giuseppe Duso, più tutta la generazione dei loro allievi. Due cose sulla sandbox: 1) A proposito delle opere di riferimento, i Geschichtliche Grundbegriffe (GG) sono di gran lunga più importanti delle altre; dovrebbero venir menzionati per primi ed avere uno spazio adeguato. Se non è possibile, meglio allora accorciare la parte sullo Historisches Woerterbuch 2) Come stavo scrivendo in sandbox, alcune voci dei GG sono state tradotto in italiano e pubblicate autonomamente. Si tratta della voce Costituzione, edita da Carocci, e poi delle voci edite da Marsilio su Democrazia, Progresso, Politica e Libertà. Si tratta di libretti che sarebbero molto utili per perfezionare le vostre voci su quei temi: te li raccomando. Saluti, Gitz6666 (talk) 16:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Gitz6666: Ti confesso che sono rimasto sorpreso nel leggere questo messaggio. Hai letteralmente suicidato la tua utenza per una battaglia di principio, quando ce n'era un'altra, la battaglia di principio che ci fa scrivere l'enciclopedia e a cui hai rinunciato per la prima, tutta legata ad un mondo di analisi di relazioni dietro la quale l'enciclopedia quasi non si vede più. Io ho avuto discussioni di fuoco in quasi 15 di contribuzione, sono stato anche bloccato una volta, ma non ho mai smesso di pensare che il rapporto tra me e il progetto passa da quello che IO sento per il progetto. La mia adesione non è mai dipesa da quanto fosse bella o giusta la comunità, da quanta soddisfazione mi desse, da quante ingiustizie mi risparmiasse. Vale per wp quanto diceva (mi pare) Frank Zappa: nella battaglia tra te e il mondo, stai dalla parte del mondo. Quindi forse tu avevi ragione e molti che sono rimasti avevano torto; forse tu per una questione di purezza, certamente apprezzabile, hai scelto di non piegarti e di rispondere una volta di più, per rimarcare l'idea (secondo me preconcetta) secondo cui l'unico motivo per cui nessuno è venuto al tuo fianco a censurare certe parole a te rivolte doveva risiedere in uno schema sociologico in cui una supposta cuspide sente il bisogno di muoversi compatta. Chi se ne va ha sempre ragione. Ma non può chiedere nulla, non può mostrare legittima preoccupazione per l'inesistenza su it.wiki della voce x. Altrimenti si sarebbe attrezzato e sarebbe rimasto. Avrebbe spazzato dall'avambraccio la polvere di certe situazioni e sarebbe andato al centro delle cose importanti. Invece una fotucola è stata più importante del Corano, impuntarsi fino a infinito era più importante di tutto il resto. La sensazione di aver subito un torto ha definito l'ordine delle tue priorità. E noi che restiamo, con i nostri torti, con il nostro progetto imperfetto, in cui addirittura molti incoscienti partecipano in modo eccellente "sotto il dominio dei prepotenti"... noi siamo senza principi o troppo fessi per ambirvi.

Da qualche tempo sei andato a spron battuto su questa convinzione: "nessuno [ha] voluto intervenire a difesa delle ragioni di un outsider, contro un admin conosciuto da tutti, rischiando di compromettere l’armonia nella comunità degli utenti esperti (e le aspettative di "carriera" di chi vuole diventare admin)". Ma le cose non stanno così. Gli admin si scornano, anzi l'admin con cui ti sei scornato sulla PAS è (mia convinzione) un convinto fautore delle ragioni degli outsider. L'admin che si è scornato con te sulla PAS si è scornato con me in mille occasioni. E te ne potrei raccontare cento di storie di conflitti interni a questa cricca che secondo te sarebbe 'terrorizzata dall'idea di iniziare a litigare al proprio interno'. Hai applicato uno schema sociologico ad un sistema reale di interazioni e per forza di cose dovevi rimanere con un pugno di mosche in mano. Poteva andare diversamente. Tu per primo potevi sfuggire alla logica delle contrapposizioni. Per primo o per secondo. E' un grande peccato ed io sono molto deluso. Non me ne frega nulla dei Geschichtliche Grundbegriffe, di cui non sapevo l'esistenza prima che me li menzionassi. Né mi occupo di bozze, ma la bozza mi sembra sufficiente per passare in ns0 e dare un'informazione di base. Qualcuno forse vorrà spostarla. Io no. Sono intento a scrivere una voce molto impegnativa, con attenta consultazione di un largo ventaglio di fonti e non ho alcuna intenzione di deviare dai miei interessi per un'intrapresa senza capitano e una storia da cui sono sentimentalmente distante. Quello era lavoro tuo e hai fatto la tua scelta di purezza. --Pequod76 (talk-ita.esp.eng) 00:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Caro Pequod, per la ragioni che capirari leggendo, ho preferito risponderti sulla mia talk - vorrei fare arrivare il mio congedo e ringraziamento anche agli altri ex colleghi wikipediani. Un abbraccio, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Ciao Pequod, ho visto che la voce sulla Storia dei concetti è stata pubblicata - per qualche ragione che non capisco, ho ricevuto una notifica. Secondo me sarebbe pietoso mettere un template S in cima alla voce; sospetto persino il copyviol, visto che si tratta di appunti che non avevo ancora avuto il tempo di rielaborare a dovere. Ma parte questo, ti scrivo perché vedo che c'è una frase mozza: "Alcuni di questi articoli sono stati tradotti e pubblicati autonomamente come libro, ad esempio XXX". Mi è impossibile completare la voce, come sai, e anche da sloggato non posso farci niente perché, con solerzia encomiabile, tutti i miei indirizzi IP sono stati bloccati (me ne sono lamentato con gli stewards, ma giustamente Vito dice che posso contribuire da loggato - solo altrove, non su it.wiki). Ma lasciare la frase così tronca non ha senso. Ti incollo quindi qui di seguito, in sintassi wiki-italiana, i riferimenti che completano il periodo. Puoi copiare e incollare, per favore? Ecco qui:

Alcuni di questi articoli sono stati tradotti e pubblicati autonomamente come libro, come le voci sui concetti di Progresso, Libertà, Democrazia, Politica e Costituzione. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:07, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Scusami di nuovo. Rimettendo i libri a posto nello scaffale mi sono accorto di aver dimenticato questo: Crisi. Non so poi se questo libro sia rilevante, ma non importa. Grazie e buon lavoro wikipediano. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:20, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Phyrexian mi ha bloccato di nuovo! Siete proprio incorreggibili ;-). Ho controllato e il libro di Koselleck, "Il vocabolario della modernità", non contiene voci dei Geschichtliche Grundbegriffe. Puoi quindi, se vuoi, incollare il testo qui sopra; spero che tu lo faccia perché non è un favore personale a me, ma un piccolo contributo all'enciclopedia, più che giustificato da WP:BS (non si può lasciare in voce una frase tronca seguita dal segno XXX! Concorderai). Saluti, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

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