Talk:Sabbat
Latest comment: 17 years ago by Bloodofox in topic Wheel of the Year: Wicca vs. Neopaganism
Wheel of the Year: Wicca vs. Neopaganism edit
I recently changed the sentence about the Wheel of the Year to include "Wiccans and other Neopagans" but it was changed to "mainly Wiccans". I do not think that this is accurate, and am tempted to change it back but wanted to start a dialogue on the issue here first. There are lots and lots of Neopagans who are NOT Wiccan who celebrate the Sabbats of the Wheel of the Year, and I believe that it is important that this sentence reflects this fact. If anyone opposed would please write their reasons, I would appreciate reading them. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 18:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- The problem is that "Neopagan" is not a synonym for Wicca. Mainly Wiccans and those greatly influenced by Wicca recognize this wheel. Please consider this in your edits. :bloodofox: 20:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- I am well aware that the two are not synonymous, and I don't quite see how my edit could be misinterpreted in that way, particularly as, above, I wrote "there are lots of Neopagans who are NOT Wiccans...". Besides, saying "Wiccans and other neopagans" implies that there are other neopagans aside from Wiccans. Neopaganism is an umbrella term that covers lots of different religious and spiritual traditions/groups/belief systems, one of which is a religion called Wicca. There are lots of non-Wiccan Neopagan groups and individuals who celebrate the Sabbats, and I was attempting to make that clear. Your changes actually seem to go against what you're saying, by not referencing the existence of other, non-Wiccan, Neopagan groups. I'm sure there's a way we can come to a compromise; I get the sense that we're trying to reach the same goal (to make sure that Neopaganism isn't confused with Wicca), but we're just going about it differently. romarin [talk ] 18:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think my main concern is that I can't really think of any 'neopagan's that observe this outside of Wiccans and maybe those heavily influenced by Wicca. So, I didn't feel the 'other neopagans' thing was necessarily. :bloodofox: 00:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response, and I understand where you're coming from—I'm sure it's true that most other Neopagan-identified people and groups who celebrate the Sabbats are influenced by Wicca to a certain extent. Still, there are many contemporary Pagans who not only identify their beliefs outside of Wicca, but specifically assert their identity as non-Wiccan and I feel that, while perhaps not completely and absolutely imperative, recognizing this fact with three little words can't hurt. It is my feeling that we should try to be as inclusive as we can, and that means recognizing the existence of other Neopagan groups where possible. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 04:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. Well, you're right and we may as well go your route. I understand most neopagan groups, particularly those that are reconstructive in nature, often couldn't be more different than Wicca. I was simply stating that these groups are unlikely to have anything to do with the calender as the calender itself is a rather Wiccan invention. :bloodofox: 14:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks. If it's all good then, I'll change the sentence back to "Wiccans and other Neopagans." I don't necessarily think that the Sabbats are a Wiccan invention, since they are based primarily on Celtic holidays that have been celebrated for centuries, and Wicca as we know it today is a new religion. Many of the things that Neopagans do in celebrating them are certainly also recent inventions, but not all. I'm sure certian reconstructionist groups, such as those focusing on Egyptian or Greek traditions, for example, don't celebrate the same Wheel of the Year, but what about non-Wiccan Celtic reconstructionists? I would even venture to imagine that many Druids celebrate the Sabbats, and Druids are generally not Wiccans... at any rate, I think that there are plenty of examples. But anyway, thanks for understanding. romarin [talk ] 18:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. Well, you're right and we may as well go your route. I understand most neopagan groups, particularly those that are reconstructive in nature, often couldn't be more different than Wicca. I was simply stating that these groups are unlikely to have anything to do with the calender as the calender itself is a rather Wiccan invention. :bloodofox: 14:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response, and I understand where you're coming from—I'm sure it's true that most other Neopagan-identified people and groups who celebrate the Sabbats are influenced by Wicca to a certain extent. Still, there are many contemporary Pagans who not only identify their beliefs outside of Wicca, but specifically assert their identity as non-Wiccan and I feel that, while perhaps not completely and absolutely imperative, recognizing this fact with three little words can't hurt. It is my feeling that we should try to be as inclusive as we can, and that means recognizing the existence of other Neopagan groups where possible. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 04:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think my main concern is that I can't really think of any 'neopagan's that observe this outside of Wiccans and maybe those heavily influenced by Wicca. So, I didn't feel the 'other neopagans' thing was necessarily. :bloodofox: 00:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- I am well aware that the two are not synonymous, and I don't quite see how my edit could be misinterpreted in that way, particularly as, above, I wrote "there are lots of Neopagans who are NOT Wiccans...". Besides, saying "Wiccans and other neopagans" implies that there are other neopagans aside from Wiccans. Neopaganism is an umbrella term that covers lots of different religious and spiritual traditions/groups/belief systems, one of which is a religion called Wicca. There are lots of non-Wiccan Neopagan groups and individuals who celebrate the Sabbats, and I was attempting to make that clear. Your changes actually seem to go against what you're saying, by not referencing the existence of other, non-Wiccan, Neopagan groups. I'm sure there's a way we can come to a compromise; I get the sense that we're trying to reach the same goal (to make sure that Neopaganism isn't confused with Wicca), but we're just going about it differently. romarin [talk ] 18:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should have chimed in sooner. I agree with Bloodofox there needs to be more of a distinction made. Celtic Reconstructionists do not use the term "Wheel of the Year" or "Sabbats". The Neo-druids who "celebrate the Sabbats" are actually taking many of their ideas and structures from Wicca. The more Reconstructionist-leaning Neo-druids don't use Wiccan structures or terminology. As this article is focused on a Wiccan perspective, I'm going to look at the changes and make sure there is still enough clarity on this issue. Cool? --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Some of the dates are based off of Germanic paganism - I've never seen a group of Germanic neopagans who recognize this calender either. It is very new age in many ways. :bloodofox: 20:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)