Talk:Rafida

Cleanup request

This page needs cleanup!--88.111.117.148 (talk) 19:43, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The first of this article have no references thus making it an unnecessary and it almost seems as propaganda of sort. Thank you TalibHassani006 (talk) 14:21, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@TalibHassani006: per MOS:LEAD "The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents." Also on that same policy page MOS:CITELEAD basically says we do not have to duplicate cites in the body in the lead. It seems like all the points made in the lead are from the article, but if you see something that is unduly mentioned or left out, please say so and be specific. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:34, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Rafida and Bilad al-Rafidayn

What is the connection between this term and the Arabic term for Mesopotamia? Does the name mean Mesopotamia is 'the land of the rejecters'? 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:9DB:9CD9:8ABE:7E56 (talk) 11:30, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Rafida. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140316212559/http://mideastafrica.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/01/29/the_vocabulary_of_sectarianism to http://mideastafrica.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/01/29/the_vocabulary_of_sectarianism

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Edit-warring

@Shadowwarrior8: Regarding your mass revert, my edits were not disruptive or biased, and I don't think I removed any reliably-sourced content without it being already mentioned elsewhere in the article.

By contrast, in your recent edits, you systematically inserted your unsourced POVs and removed or mutilated reliably-sourced material. I've documented these, one by one, in my counter-edits (which you've now reverted). For example, here you changed "[Sunni] traditions of dubious authenticity" to "traditions." In another instance, here you removed from the lede the sentence about the link to [Sunni] extremism.

@Aqsian313, HeyElliott, and Alssa1: Before reporting this to WP:DRR, I'd like to bring this post to your attention because you've recently shown interest in this article. I hope you would help resolve this conflict. Thank you. Albertatiran (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

In both examples you mentioned, burden is on the editor who wants to insert content. On the other hand, you removed an encyclopaedic reference with an inline citation.

I did not engage in editwar either, so the heading of this section is false and probably disingenous. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 14:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Shadowwarrior8 What "burden"? In both example I mentioned, you removed reliably-sourced content fun the article.

I have not removed any reliably-sourced material from this article. Could you be more specific with your accusation? Albertatiran (talk) 14:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

You do not have any inline citations.

"All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material. Any material that needs an inline citation but does not have one may be removed." Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Shadowwarrior8 It's a common practice on Wikipedia not to include citations in the lede, which servers as a summary of the main body of the article, where the claims in question are cited from reliable sources. Even if you were unaware of this practice, this still doesn't explain your other instances of removing content from the body of this article. See my first example above. Albertatiran (talk) 16:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Albertatiran

Stop making strawman claims. Nowhere did I ask to insert in-line citations in the lede. You have no in-line citations for those claims, either in the body of the article or in the talk-page.

You removed an inline-citation and a Britannica reference here, claiming that it is "not a reliable source". Encyclopædia Britannica is listed as a reliable source in wikipedia.

"Encyclopædia Britannica is a quality general encyclopedia (including its online edition, Encyclopædia Britannica Online). Its editorial process includes fact checking and publishing corrections."

Thirdly, as another editor pointed out, you inserted several sectarian POV edits as well. One such edit I noticed was this. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 16:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Shadowwarrior8 It's clear that you didn't understand what I said about the lede...

Regarding Britannica, an article authored by "Editors of Encyclopedia Britannica" is not a reliable source, especially when there are a dozen top-tier sources about the topic, including the Encyclopedia of Islam. At any rate, nothing was removed. That sentence was just replaced with similar (but far more reliable) claims from much better sources.

Regarding your link, that "another editor" is yourself!! And that content is (without any editorial bias) taken from reliable sources. My task, as a Wikipedia editor, is to summarize and present reliable research about the topic, be it controversial or not.

Still none of these explains or justifies your whole-same reversion of my edits. I'm reporting this case to WP:DRR. Albertatiran (talk) 18:31, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Albertatiran:, Thanks for the ping! I do believe your version was better than this one, though I do see a bit of a pro-Shia statements on some of the articles you have worked on. For example, on the articles of Muharram and Ashura, the claims that Sunnis celebrate 10 Muharram "through supererogatory fasting and other acceptable expressions of joy." is a controversial statement to make. I believe such discussions should be needed before making such edits. Your revisions on other articles, such as Ahl al-Bayt (where the claim is made that "Sunnis extended the term ahl al-bayt to all Muslims" is again controversial and an extremely rare opinion amongst the Sunnis. Nevertheless, I do appreciate your revisions of sources replacing poor ones with WP:RS as on this article, though I would appreciate neutrality in Shia–Sunni related articles. Regarding Rafida, on the current version of this article, I would advocate for a change in wording. For example: "In Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism is the state religion" is simply untrue. The Saudi state religion is only Islam per the constitution, Salafism / Wahhabism is the dominant movement practiced there, albeit not a state religion. Nevertheless, I agree with Albertatiran on the removal of such sources like Pustaka Nasional Pte Ltd., Allama Yahya al-Houthi and History of Islam Volume of Akbar Najibabadi which are nowhere close to WP:RS. Aqsian313 (Aqsian313) 16:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 06:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Aqsian313 Thanks for the input. What you quoted (from this article and others) are, without any exceptions, taken from top-tier sources and added to the articles with their due weights. We should keep in mind that our job here is to faithfully present the reliable and academic research, be it controversial or not.

For example, Ashura is indeed celebrated in many Sunni communities, particularly in the Maghreb. Just because it's a controversial statement doesn't mean that it shouldn't receive its due weight in our Wikipedia article. A similar story for your comment about the Ahl al-Bayt. My point is that there is no room on Wikipedia for our personal observations or views unless they can be backed up by the majority views across the academia.

One exception here is your comment about Wahhabism. The claim that it's the state religion in Saudi Arabia is taken verbatim from the sources. If you think it's incorrect, I'd be happy to discuss it, ideally in a separate thread. In particular, what alternative wording do you suggest? Thanks again! Albertatiran (talk) 18:53, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with your points on the Ashura and the Ahl al-Bayt articles. Regarding this one, for the part about Wahhabism, I propose "In Saudi Arabia, where the dominant creed in Salafism (the term Wahhabi is not claimed by the Saudis) schoolbooks referred to Shias as the Rafida until 1993". Nevertheless, the rest of your revision is pretty good in my opinion. Aqsian313 (talk) 20:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 06:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd be happy to address your comment and rewrite that sentence once the current content dispute is resolved. Do you happen to know a good source for the sentence you suggested? Albertatiran (talk) 12:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm currently busy working on something so I don't really have the time to look in for a good source for this. Nevertheless, we both have reached a consensus for this article. If Shaddowwarrior8 doesn't reply, then just revert. Again, thanks for pinging! Aqsian313 (talk) 23:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 06:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Aqsian313 Ok, sounds good. To be safe, I've submitted this case for dispute resolution and cited your comment in my argument. Albertatiran (talk) 12:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Albertatiran and Shadowwarrior8: If I am correct the issue you are fighting over is whether to include a sourced statement saying that some Shi'a co-opt and identify with the label of Rafidhi?

(contribs) אב דהן (talkpage) 17:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@AvDahan Hello, I'm working to undo the unexplained mass-revert linked above. Albertatiran (talk) 09:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

RFC on Rejection of Truth in Lede

Should the following sentence be restored to the lede paragraph of the article on Rafida:

The charge that Shias have rejected the Truth is frequently cited by Sunni extremists to justify their acts of violence against the Shia community.

? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Please answer Yes or No in the Survey with a brief statement of why, on your view, the statement should be restored or should not be restored. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion in the Survey. You may engage in back-and-forth discussion in the Discussion section; that's what it's for. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

That statement is inappropriate in the lede, since it gives undue weight to contemporary geo-political issues. WP:RECENTISM

The article primarily deals with the Rafida sects and their history. In my opinion, a main issue with many Islam-related articles in wikipedia is that classical religious doctrines and concepts are mixed with contemporary geo-political issues in many of these pages. Imami Shi'ites has self-identified themselves as "Rafida" for over a thousand years. The term "Rafida" has been used derogatorily in Sunni and Zaydi scholarly texts for over a thousand years.

Ignoring this and giving undue weight to information related to contemporary militant and insurgent groups advances an Euro-centric systemic bias and is certainly not an encyclopaedic approach. Additionally, both the article and it's 1 para lede are very short, so it is undue in the lede. If a page article titled "Rafida (slur)" is created, then it maybe appropriate to mention information related to contemporary geo-political affairs in an enlarged lede. Otherwise, it is undue. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 16:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

---

The removed sentence corresponds to the following paragraph in our article about the Rafida (lit. 'those who reject', an often deragotary nickname for most Shias). The paragraph essentially says that, for some Sunni currents and schools, the term Rafida signifies that Shias have rejected the true Islam and are thus heretics, against whom violence is justified. This is not a contemporary development and such attitude towards Shias dates back to the eleventh century or earlier. In my view, the following paragraph is an important part of the article that warrants mention in the lede, as the standalone summary of the article; see WP:LEDE. To hide it from the majority of visitors (who would not go on to read the main article) is not to give the issue its due weight. At just one paragraph, the current lede is well-below the recommended limit of four paragraphs; see MOS:LEADLENGTH. Therefore, in my opinion, there is hardly any justification to remove that sentence from the lede.

Corresponding paragraph in the body of the article:

By eleventh century, the Shia status as "rejectors of the Truth" was canonized by Hanbali scholars, who did not grant Islamic rights to Shia Muslims: They were not to be married with, meat slaughtered by them was not halal (permissible), and they could not lead prayers. With the fall of Abbasids in 1258, such attacks on Shi'ism intensified. They are labeled today as infidels or heretics by various Salafi and Wahhabi scholars, considered a bigger threat to Islam than Christianity and Judaism, and sometimes, there are frequent calls for their extermination. On these grounds, some Sunni Jihadist groups have justified acts of violence against the Shia community. A popular reference for these groups is the prominent Hanbali theologian Ibn Taymiyya (d. 1328), a staunch anti-Shia who also accused the Shia of conspiring with the disbelievers to destroy Islam from within.

Albertatiran (talk) 07:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

References