Talk:Narendra Modi

Big Mistake in the article

Selling Tea - why should highlight this?

His account of helping his father sell tea at the Vadnagar railway station has not been reliably corroborated.

Why should this be highlighted in the lead if it is not reliable ? Afv12e (talk) 18:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Afv12e: The text means that Modi claimed he helped his father sell tea, but Wikipedia mentions that this is not reliably corroborated, as no reliable secondary sources have confirmed it. GrabUp - Talk 18:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

it is not conveying the meaning and it like mean. How about rewriting this like this:

His account of helping his father sell tea at the Vadnagar railway station highlights his humble beginnings and strong work ethic, although some sources have debated its precise details Afv12e (talk) 18:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

“highlights his humble beginnings and strong work ethic” Is totally promotional. This can’t be added. GrabUp - Talk 12:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

His account of helping his father sell tea at the Vadnagar railway station has become a well-known part of his personal narrative, though some sources have debated its precise details.

OK, how about this? Afv12e (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Invited in by Grabup. I'm afraid I have little understanding of the relative importance of this anecdote for inclusion in the lead, but is the reason we're including it there simply that he's been accused of inventing his 'humble working-class beginnings' story? His brother probably isn't a reliable source, and I see we don't have an article on Janbharat Times, which is our only source for that? I would say that if literally the only place we're finding this negative info about a BLP is a quote from his brother in media we don't even have an article about, it not only shouldn't be in the lead, it shouldn't be in the article. Valereee (talk) 15:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I've removed it per BLP concerns. Please discuss before adding it back. Valereee (talk) 15:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: Actually, I did not invite you for this; I invited you for the above thread. GrabUp - Talk 15:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: There was no BLP violation. His brother's statement has been covered by various sources.[1] You should restore the text. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 03:56, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I think a quote from his brother that says Don’t call Prime Minister Narendra Modi a tea seller, rather call him a tea seller’s son. Because our father sold tea. He has brought up six of us (siblings) by selling tea on a small scale. You are making a big mistake by calling the Prime Minister a ‘chai wala‘ in HW News -- we apparently don't even have an article on this 5-year old source whose "About Us" shows no signs of editorial oversight? -- isn't enough to impugn a living person's honesty. You can take this to BLPN if you want further input, but for me this is a BLP vio. Valereee (talk) 09:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

There are numerous sources that mention about Narendra Modi working for his father and selling tea at the Vadnagar railway station.

इस दुकान पर PM मोदी बेचते थे चाय, इस कारण बनेगा टूरिस्ट स्पॉट, Dainik BhaskarPM मोदी बचपन में जिस दुकान पर बेचते थे चाय, सरकार के इस कदम से अब बदल जाएगी उसकी सूरत, Zee News Hindi, Sep 02, 2019Vadnagar: Where PM Modi spent his childhood, selling tea, dreaming big, India Today, 7/16/2021The stall where PM Modi used to sell tea to be developed as a tourist spot, Times of india, Sept 17. 2019 Malaiya (talk) 00:50, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

• Senior Congressman Mani Shankar Aiyar, derisively called him a chaiwala in 2014. From chaiwala in 2014 to neech aadmi now, who is Mani Shankar Aiyar batting for?, India Today, Dec 7, 2017
• Modi has himself called himself a chaiwala many times. For example
  

"As PM Modi had a cup of tea there, he said, "The tea is really good. And I know since I was a chaiwala."

'As I was a chaiwala...': PM Modi's praise for tea at Ujjwala beneficiary's house, Hindustan Times, Dec 30, 2023 Malaiya (talk) 01:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: ABC has also provided coverage to this.[2] You should restore the text now. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 05:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that ABC and his biographer are a good source. What I'm seeing there is the biographer is saying the story is "grossly exaggerated" and ABC is quoting the brother as saying "Narendra did not sell tea alone — we are five brothers and we all sold the tea".

We could maybe put into his early life section, 'Modi's father sold tea at a local train station, and Modi and his brothers all worked with him; Modi has referred to himself as a chai wala, and it has become part of his personal narrative. Modi biographer Nilanjan Mukhopadhyay says that the idea Modi could reasonably call himself a chai wala is "grossly exaggerated".', with citation to the ABC and Hindustan Times sources. Valereee (talk) 12:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

No references to any sources at all....please add unbiased and independent reports or , articles or evidences supporting these claims

His administration increased direct foreign investment, and it reduced spending on healthcare, education, and social-welfare programmes. Modi began a high-profile sanitation campaign, controversially initiated the 2016 demonetisation of high-denomination banknotes and introduced the Goods and Services Tax, and weakened or abolished environmental and labour laws 103.110.48.144 (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

It is an editorial choice to not add excessive citations for each claim in the lead. See MOS:CITELEAD. But every claim has multiple quality citations in the body. For instance, see the #Economy section in the article for direct foreign investment claim. — hako9 (talk) 19:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Caretaker PM

Please do not confuse the term 'Caretaker PM' with 'Acting PM.' An Acting PM is sworn in, as in the case of Gulzari Lal Nanda, while a caretaker PM is solely based on the President's discretion. Additionally, as soon as the President accepts the resignation of the incumbent Prime Minister and the Lok Sabha is dissolved, his or her premiership ends. On the other hand, there is no such thing as the post remaining vacant, as Manmohan Singh resigned as Prime Minister on May 17th, and Narendra Modi was sworn in on May 26th. Hope this helps! 25 CENTS VICTORIOUS ^🍁 16:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Infobox fix!

Remove died, resting place and parent from Infobox Redmyname31 (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done Special:Diff/1227443579. It was an unnamed parameter that threw it off. Took me a solid bit to realize. Oh well, got it in the end. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 19:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Biased

this is so biased. Didn't expect this from Wiki. 103.85.207.89 (talk) 18:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate more about which portions are biased? 𝙴𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗𝚊𝚛𝚒𝚌 𝙴𝚗𝚓𝚘𝚢𝚎𝚛 (talk) 18:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I will elaborate. The lead, which talks about democratic backsliding, islamophobia and the failed airstrikes. Any attempt to bring neutrality is reverted. If you want i can go line by line and explain. Pharaoh496 (talk) 12:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Lead image

We could consider choosing a lead image such as this or a cropped version of that, as long as there is no better alternative. The current one is of poor technical quality. –Tobias (talk) 11:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Lead length

I agree with Wafflefrites that the lead is too long, even for the length of the whole article. I already rewrote it which was reverted soon after. Is there any sensible reason for keeping the lead that long or does someone have additional ideas to my revision of it? –Tobias (talk) 14:49, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I have re-tagged the lead being too long per MOS:LEADLENGTH. Follow Wikipedia’s Manual of Style, the lead should be four paragraphs for long articles. This article’s lead is too long and should be trimmed. Tagging @Vanamonde93 who did the reversion so everyone involved is aware of the lead length guidelines. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Quoting the guideline you cite: "As a general guideline—but not absolute rule—the lead should usually be no longer than four paragraphs". A guideline in the MOS does not give you license to unilaterally modify the lead. This is a long and complex topic, and the lead needs to summarize the body in a way that does not violate NPOV, which the revisions did. I am open to attempting to compress the lead, but that needs to happen through discussion. I would suggest omitting the following fragments: "and the deaths of six Indian personnel to friendly fire were later revealed"; "sometimes with the complicity of police forces controlled by the Modi administration"; and "according to the World Health Organization's estimates". The trivia in the first paragraph about him being the longest-serving non-INC prime minister can also probably go. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

And nothing gives you the license to universally prevent changes. To be honest, your suggestions seem more like a NPOV violation than anything I have done so far, to just omit involvement of the administration in dead people. Additionally, I have removed several redundant sentences for the same reason—the lead is unnecessarily and preventably long. –Tobias (talk) 15:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

You are obligated by policy to obtain consensus for a change. Since your edits were reverted, you need to justify them on the substance. And many of them are just not going to fly; you removed, for instance, the description of the RSS; the assessment of Modi's social policies; and even the mention of his first election as Prime Minister. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Description of the RSS is something that belongs in the article about them, this is about Modi. I moved his political ideology to this spot. If you refer to "which have been cited as evidence of a majoritarian and exclusionary social agenda", that's one example that goes too much into detail. Therefore, the content is more suitable for the body text. I am okay with just adding the words "prime minister" to the mention of his first won election to clarify that it was the one that made him prime minister. –Tobias (talk) 17:02, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If you think those pieces of information are unimportant, please spend more time reading the sources this article is built on. The nature of the RSS, and the impact of Modi's policy, are major themes in scholarship about Modi, far more than - for instance - his marriage, or even his policies as chief minister. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I trimmed "and the deaths of six Indian personnel to friendly fire were later revealed" and "sometimes with the complicity of police forces controlled by the Modi administration". Please feel free to revert if you disagree. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Appears fine to me – I feel like the exact fatalities of any riot isn't that important as well, at least in the lead and that this is detailed information for the body text. –Tobias (talk) 22:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• I think it will be hard to compress the lead. Modi has been the prime minister for 10 years, and was a controversial chief minister before that. Reading through the lead, we could shorten it by rewriting sentences in a more compact manner but I can't see anything that should be chucked out. Also, apparently the complaint is the number of paragraphs and that should be easy to address by merging para 2 with the Gujarat part of para 3, and the rest of para 3 into para 4 (and using shorter sentences with fewer clauses to address the length of para 4). RegentsPark (comment) 16:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes I think merging paragraphs and shorter sentences would help. The lead should be a summary of the body, and the Lead too long maintenance tag suggests moving details to the body. I think combining paragraphs/ trimming sentences would help with summarizing details. Wafflefrites (talk) 16:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed. The sentences I highlighted above strike me as ones with unnecessary detail, but I'm open to suggestions about condensing. I'm less sure about the paragraphs; 3 is long, and 4 is about his prime ministership, making Gujarat material odd there in my view. I'm more inclined to merge 1 & 2. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC) never mind, I was looking at the wrong version. I'm okay with the paragraph split proposed by RP. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  That sounds like a reasonable option. You're right, there isn't much that can be omitted, even though I wouldn't say nothing, but merging of sentences and paragraphs is likely to contribute to conciseness and, as a consequence, shortness. –Tobias (talk) 17:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)