Talk:Jonas Jonsson (19th-century builder)
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Works edit
@Bishonen; is this one of s works? Giano (talk) 07:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- It's probably Old High Dutch. :-) Hi, Giano, thanks for checking this out. I was just typing up a reply for your page, I'll put it here instead. I can't tell if that object in Vimmerby you link to is Jonsson's. He did do Vimmerby Church, as architect as well as builder, there's an image plus anecdotal stuff about the building process on this site. He also designed Barkeryd Church (narrative of circumstances of selecting Jonsson for the job here, many photos here, including this public domain image).
- He designed and built Linköping's savings bank, the first savings bank in Sweden, finished in 1860. (I can't find a pic, this is a different, newer house.) But there's a promising-sounding book about it, which I can fairly easily acquire. And here's a little pay dirt about the house from a local history site:
- The house was built in stone by the architect and master builder Jonas Jonsson, who had his own version of empire style which came to be called Tjust empire style. [1]
- Aha, the Tjust empire style ascribed to Jonsson, see? It's admittedly a bit of a tertiary source, I'd rather refer to their source, but it's not the kind of site that supplies references.
- So much for things he designed. But the twist is that Strömbäck, my source, is more interested — as regards developing the regional empire style — in the buildings where JJ collaborated with prominent architects, especially Per Axel Nyström. Quote Strömbäck:
- Most of Jonsson's works, however, were created in collaboration with prominent architects, and it is together with those that that the special empire style is developed.
- "Special empire style" has to mean Tjust empire style in the context. I don't exactly understand the division of roles between architect and builder, but I suppose one could simply say "in collaboration with" bla bla in the article. Note how Strömbäck avoids specifying responsibility/credit by using the evasive passive form: "is developed".
- The Art Academy in Stockholm is one of those buildings. Commons has a pic of how it looked after renovation by Fredrik Blom as architect and JJ as builder here. It was altered in 1893, there's a photo of that version as well on Commons. JJ built several other fancy houses in Stockholm.
- I can't find Jonas Jonsson on the postcard site. Might you have looked at just "Jonsson"? Because there's a Bo Jonsson-Grip character. But I googled Casimirsborg, it's apparently his. Built in 1829 — early in JJ's career — in "stilren Tjustempire", by Uppman, architect, and Jonsson, byggmästare, per Swedish wikipedia sv:Casimirsborg. Rather good-looking, isn't it. Wikipedia: "Huvudbyggnaden innehåller en magnifik paradvåning med bland annat norra Smålands största salong (cirka 100 m²), som är på väg (2006) att i stora stycken återställas till ursprungsskicket." God, these architectural terms, but I'll try: "The house contains a magnificent (peacock terms, anybody?) uh.. uh… (there's a term for paradvåning, I know, maybe you can figure it out), which includes the largest salon in northern Småland, cirka 100 m², and which is currently (2006) largely being restored to its original condition." Not sure if it's the entire paradvåning or just the salon that's being restored. Anyway, it looks like the exterior hasn't been changed any since 1829, if the official website is to be believed.[2] Bishonen | talk 09:28, 20 March 2014 (UTC).
- According to our own dear encyclopedia (English version of the Swedish page [3]) a "paradvåning" is a state room; howver. my natural knowledge of Swedish would suggest that is is an enfilade of several state rooms. I think we need to get these terms straight before adding anything. Giano (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, absolutely not a single room, no way. The paradvåning at Casimirsborg is everywhere described as containing, among other things, the big-ass salon. I'm thinking of some word you use all the time… I want to say State apartment, which is unfortunately only a redirect to State room. My native wit tells me it's an enfilade, but that may not be our best source. You can see the facade very well here — don't the four central windows indicate that there are state rooms behind them? Bishonen | talk 18:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC).
- The image shows what is probably a small piano nobile and enfilade of three reception rooms (not a traditional state suite with a bedroom) It's likely a grand dining/general purpose salon (3 windows) in the centre, and a drawing room (2 windows) either side followed by a smaller closet like room (1 window). I think the house is too late and too small for all the usual panoply of state rooms climaxing in a bedroom. We probably need Wetman's input here, as he is very wise on all matters such as this. Giano (talk) 18:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, piano nobile, that's the term I was trying to recall. Isn't that a reasonable translation of paradvåning? In this case, at least. But you know I'm not talking about the top image at that link, right? Somebody thought that was Casimirsborg, but it isn't. The real Casimirsborg is a little further down, very clear postcard image though the lower parts of the house are obscured by trees, with "Casimirsborg, Gamleby" written on it in white letters. Bishonen | talk 22:07, 20 March 2014 (UTC).
- No, it's not a reasonable translation - piano nobile is a floor with the 'best' rooms. State rooms are something completely different and began life as one very large, luxurious bedroom suite, and always follow a certain sequence, whereas, a piano nobile can just an enfilade of vague salons on an unper floor. Casimirsborg looks like a neoclassical house (unlikely to have a state suite) with two flanking wings. By the time it was built, Kings, like everyone else, preferred to go to bed with a degree of privacy. It's unlikely that a single enfilade extends the whole length of the facade, probably just the central block. also the windows don't really indicate that the best rooms are on an upper floor. Could you translate the Swedish Wiki page on the house to a page here, then we can have something to play with. The problem with Mr Jonsson is that we don't know if he was a junior architect to a greater one (like Matthew Brettingham) or was he just a grand builder, like Thomas Cubitt. Giano (talk) 08:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ow.. I don't really want to. You see how it has no references? I'd have to do some serious history research. (What, work?) And the first paragraphs are obviously taken straight from some touristy peacockery. I hate translating articles, anyway. Anyway, yes, I agree that we simply don't know about his role in relation to the architects. The sources don't say, presumably because they don't really know either. I'm probably in over my head. Bishonen | talk 12:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC).
- Well I can't write about nothing; how come you have left nice, safe literature to delve into nasty old architecture. What was your inspiration here? Giano (talk) 17:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- It was really Drmies's Öland article drive, specifically the article on the lighthouse Långe Erik, that Jonsson built. Drmies mentioned Jonsson, and I just thought I'd create an article about him, to plump up the Långe Erik info a little. So you see, my motivation was a bit far-fetched, or sinuous. How about one of the churches instead, Vimmerby Church or Barkeryd Church, see links at my first post above? Might be better info available? And there's not the architect/builder conundrum with those, since Jonsson designed them himself. Bishonen | talk 12:34, 22 March 2014 (UTC).
- Well I can't write about nothing; how come you have left nice, safe literature to delve into nasty old architecture. What was your inspiration here? Giano (talk) 17:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ow.. I don't really want to. You see how it has no references? I'd have to do some serious history research. (What, work?) And the first paragraphs are obviously taken straight from some touristy peacockery. I hate translating articles, anyway. Anyway, yes, I agree that we simply don't know about his role in relation to the architects. The sources don't say, presumably because they don't really know either. I'm probably in over my head. Bishonen | talk 12:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC).
- No, it's not a reasonable translation - piano nobile is a floor with the 'best' rooms. State rooms are something completely different and began life as one very large, luxurious bedroom suite, and always follow a certain sequence, whereas, a piano nobile can just an enfilade of vague salons on an unper floor. Casimirsborg looks like a neoclassical house (unlikely to have a state suite) with two flanking wings. By the time it was built, Kings, like everyone else, preferred to go to bed with a degree of privacy. It's unlikely that a single enfilade extends the whole length of the facade, probably just the central block. also the windows don't really indicate that the best rooms are on an upper floor. Could you translate the Swedish Wiki page on the house to a page here, then we can have something to play with. The problem with Mr Jonsson is that we don't know if he was a junior architect to a greater one (like Matthew Brettingham) or was he just a grand builder, like Thomas Cubitt. Giano (talk) 08:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, piano nobile, that's the term I was trying to recall. Isn't that a reasonable translation of paradvåning? In this case, at least. But you know I'm not talking about the top image at that link, right? Somebody thought that was Casimirsborg, but it isn't. The real Casimirsborg is a little further down, very clear postcard image though the lower parts of the house are obscured by trees, with "Casimirsborg, Gamleby" written on it in white letters. Bishonen | talk 22:07, 20 March 2014 (UTC).
- The image shows what is probably a small piano nobile and enfilade of three reception rooms (not a traditional state suite with a bedroom) It's likely a grand dining/general purpose salon (3 windows) in the centre, and a drawing room (2 windows) either side followed by a smaller closet like room (1 window). I think the house is too late and too small for all the usual panoply of state rooms climaxing in a bedroom. We probably need Wetman's input here, as he is very wise on all matters such as this. Giano (talk) 18:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, absolutely not a single room, no way. The paradvåning at Casimirsborg is everywhere described as containing, among other things, the big-ass salon. I'm thinking of some word you use all the time… I want to say State apartment, which is unfortunately only a redirect to State room. My native wit tells me it's an enfilade, but that may not be our best source. You can see the facade very well here — don't the four central windows indicate that there are state rooms behind them? Bishonen | talk 18:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC).
- According to our own dear encyclopedia (English version of the Swedish page [3]) a "paradvåning" is a state room; howver. my natural knowledge of Swedish would suggest that is is an enfilade of several state rooms. I think we need to get these terms straight before adding anything. Giano (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Huh, what, Casimirsborg? What a coincidence--I was just translating that! Very poorly! I'll leave all the parlor and salon talk to you all. Being a bit lower-class with mythological aspirations, I am more interested in this, which isn't brought up in the sv article, as marvelously detailed as it was about who was married to whose cousin. Yes, Bishonen, it's always some Dutchwoman's fault, isn't it. If it isn't Tromp, then it's me. Drmies (talk) 15:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- Funnily enough, I had already stared collecting some facts fr a page on the house myself, so I will incorporate them. You see, Bishonen, some of us don't mind a little hard work! Giano (talk) 16:51, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- PS: Is the uninked "Uppman Jonsson" the same person as our man here? Giano (talk) 16:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, must be, 1829 is right, but what's an Uppman, Drmies? It's not a name. I've heard of upmanship, but… Looking at my keyboard, I can see how a drunk person trying to type Jonas might end up with Uppma, but there's still no accounting for the n. Perhaps the spellcheck added it.
Bishonen | talk 23:47, 22 March 2014 (UTC).
- Yes, must be, 1829 is right, but what's an Uppman, Drmies? It's not a name. I've heard of upmanship, but… Looking at my keyboard, I can see how a drunk person trying to type Jonas might end up with Uppma, but there's still no accounting for the n. Perhaps the spellcheck added it.
- PS: Is the uninked "Uppman Jonsson" the same person as our man here? Giano (talk) 16:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- Funnily enough, I had already stared collecting some facts fr a page on the house myself, so I will incorporate them. You see, Bishonen, some of us don't mind a little hard work! Giano (talk) 16:51, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
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