Talk:Scottish Gaelic

An Leabhar Mòr

The article An Leabhar Mòr has been proposed for deletion. I can't decide whether this is important or not. Maybe Gaelic enthusiasts would like to look in there? Doric Loon (talk) 15:38, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm not actually sure what the criteria are for pages regarding pages on individual books/art projects aimed at a fairly small community? Any thoughts? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

What official language Scottish Gaelic is not

Wikipedia generally does not discuss what topics are not, for the simple reason that this is could be taken as offering the opinion that it should be. Exceptions are, of course, if it is significant and discussed in reliable sources. Otherwise, it's far better to keep articles focussed on what the subject is, especially in the lead. What it is not is rarely as important or relevant.

So I can't see much reason why the lead of this article should concern itself with Scottish Gaelic not being an official language of the UK, when it is far, far more significant that it is an official language of Scotland, which is only mentioned in the infobox. It is also what the source cited (a Scottish Government document) actually says. This source does not discuss UK official languages at all. In fact, I don't think there is any source cited in the article that does.

I also don't think that preventative "heading off" erroneous additions is much of an argument for determining what appears in an article lead. If incorrect or unsourced information is added it should simply be reverted, or an editor note added. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

These discussions arise in the context of - and to an extent due to confusion with - the impact of the Welsh Language Act 1993, which confers much broader rights to Welsh at a national i.e. UK level as it was - predating the Welsh Assembly - passed at Westminster. Coupled with the legal odditiy of English not being an official language either, stating that ScG is NOT an official language is neither irrelevant nor expressing an opinion on whether it should or shouldn't.

This is not hugely dissimilar to the United States article which in the infobox states "Official languages : None at the federal level" Akerbeltz (talk) 21:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Akerbeltz Stating what it is not, however, is unsourced. As would be any comparison with Welsh. How is the reader to verify this? Whether the intention is to state an opinion or not, that's how it can appear. Otherwise, why is it there, in the lead? There are thousands of things Scottish Gaelic is not.

I would suggest that what is there is changed to begin with what it is, and what the existing source actually verifies. Anything about its UK status can follow, supported by a source that actually discusses its UK status. If good sources can be found, and it's absolutely necessary, this can be expanded on to include a contrast with the status of Welsh, later in the article in an appropriate section. This would actually address the confusion in a far more informative way, than an unsupported claim, as present. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 22:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

And your comparison with the United States article is not similar at all. This would be more similar if the English Language article lead with "English is not an official language of the United States". I haven't checked, but I doubt it does. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 22:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll try and respond a bit more later but I'd like to point out that this page doesn't "lead with what it is not", you're making it sound like it's the opening sentence. It's a clarification on the legal status of a minority language, which is information commonly found in or near the top of such pages. It's in the 3rd paragraph of Welsh language, the 1st paragraph of Galician language; also in 1st for Catalan language and Hungarian language which contrast "official" with "spoken" (i.e. not official). Maybe for speakers of big languages who are used to the luxury of having everything at their disposal in their own language it's no big deal whether their language is official or not, but for smaller languages it IS a big deal whether your language is official or not. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:34, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

All the examples you gave are supported by a source, and start with what the language is. If this article is to take them as an example, it should do the same; Scottish Gaelic is an official language of Scotland, (cite) but not an official language of the United Kingdom (cite). I've no issue with the lead clarifying its UK status, but do not think this should be totally unsourced (there is no source for this claim in the lead, or anywhere in the article), and should take precedence over its Scottish status. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:53, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

How is it not official?

there seems to have been back and forth about this, but the Scottish Government website literally says "The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 gained royal assent in June of that year, confirming Gaelic as an official language of Scotland". that's on an official Scottish Government website, it literally describes it as official. the act being referred to itself says "The functions conferred on the Bòrd by this Act are to be exercised with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language..." which is admitedly ambiguous, but i don't think the strange wording means it isn't an official language.

also, "The Scottish Government declares that it protects Scottish Gaelic "as an official language of Scotland", however, this is disputed by others, who argue that Scottish Gaelic is not an official language of the United Kingdom or Scotland." what? if the Scottish Government doesn't decide what language is official, who does? it may not be an official language of the UK, but the page for Welsh says its place as an official language of Wales, even though it isn't either. hell, even the page for Scots mentions its official status. if Gaelic isn't official in Scotland for the reason that our government doesn't decide that, then neither is Scots, and Welsh isn't for Wales. Clydiee (talk) 22:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Relevant references appear to include

• [1]
• [2] (warning, this is a primary source: WP:PRIMARY)

You can probably find others – newspaper reports would probably be decent sources if from a quality newspaper. Once you have some sources, go ahead and edit the article. There might be some disagreement from others, but the end result will probably be a suitable change. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 07:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The problem arises from the shoddy language used by the people writing the website vs the wording of the actual legislation. I wish it were different but if you read ANY legistlation relating to Gaelic, there is NOTHING in there that says it's an official language. And since there is no precendent of a website (even if produced by some government department) trumping primary legislation, I'm afraid the status quo remains that Gaelic, legally speaking, is NOT an official language. Akerbeltz (talk) 09:24, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case can we get a better source than a 27 year old essay talking about Gaelic's "present" situtation, 8 years prior to the 2005 Act? Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

PS Welsh, funnily enough IS an official language, not only of Wales but the UK, because the Welsh language act predates the Welsh Parliament and was passed at Westminster. The Welsh Language Act is worded much more strongly than the Gaelic 'equivalent' and is the reason why - for example - the HMRC website is available in Welsh, but not Gaelic. Akerbeltz (talk) 09:26, 18 May 2024 (UTC)