Wikipedia talk:WikiTown/Freopedia

Freopedia

A WikiTown project for Fremantle, Western Australia.

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Historical sites??

At the commercial hotel talk page - (Apology to any who get grieved about copied talk page comments - here for a central discussion)

I added this to wp:HSITES. What list of historic sites should this place appear on? I don't see it in Australian National Heritage List, which lists 93. There are no in-bound links yet. Is it instead on the Commonwealth Heritage List (article describes what that is, but does not list them). It is time to create an explicit list of those ones, anyhow. And/or what historic register should include this Commercial Hotel place in Western Australia? I didn't look at "SHOWA" yet, mentioned above, maybe that needs to be listed out? --doncram 00:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Followup: I fixed the linking from List of heritage places in Fremantle to here (it had Commercial Hotel (Fremantle) showing as a redlink, which I redirected).

I also created State Register of Heritage Places, which could be the list article for the State Register, which seems to be missing otherwise.

Note the Commercial Hotel entry in List of heritage places in Fremantle has a bad footnote, goes to a Section 404 error or something, could be fixed by reference(s) used here now. This is a bit far astray for me. --doncram 01:03, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

It should be on List of heritage places in Fremantle, and probably elsewhere. Sam Wilson 01:05, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

• before this gets out of hand - I am not sure that we have anything thatshould be in any list - if I read the above correctly:

Australia has a three tier (if not 5) and not synchronous system of heritage places - I am not sure any of the Freopedia sites deserve to start being placed into Historical sites project without a very clear understanding of scope of that project - and where most of the sites belong in Freopedia.

Looking from the bottom -

the municipal register

the state register (and different levels in there as well)

the national trust

the very messy national or commonwealth systems (some old and not revamped)

Precedence plays a very serious hand here - if one hotel gets the treatment - we have hundred if not thousands of australian places/buildings that subsequently require a better more systematic assesment as to which level of significance - and what constitutes elligibility to be a 'historical site' or not JarrahTree 01:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

• When I look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Historic_sites - I dont believe that component parts of Freopedia belong with that project... and Fremantle Prison is in a separate project JarrahTree 01:33, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

• • When looking at the grab bag of List of heritage places in Fremantle

It states The inHerit database includes places which are on the State Register of Heritage Places, the City of Fremantle's Municipal Heritage Inventory, the National Trust's List of Classified Places, the National Heritage List and the Commonwealth Heritage List

That means totally different levels of criterion could have been ascribed to any one place, but not on another... JarrahTree 02:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd have to say that the National Trust listing should be ranked lower than the State Heritage Registar, as the state listing affords a building or place legal protection from demolition or alterations, whilst the National Trust doesn't. Dan arndt (talk) 03:01, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't mind that my comments were copied to here. I take it this is where a "central discussion" about coverage of "heritage places" / historic sites in Fremantle can take place. This is probably not the best central location for discussion about whether/where all State Register of Heritage Places should be listed out explicitly (which seems to me to be a fairly good thing to do, to show redlinks where articles are needed; see wp:CLT for an essay about how lists are complementary to categories and navigation templates).

My two cents: it is fine to have a geographic-based List of heritage places in Fremantle which covers historic sites that are either listed on the State Register or listed by some other body, but it would be an improvement if the types of designation were included in the list-article. Some sites no doubt are listed in more than one register, which can be indicated. Perhaps color-coding could be applied to rows to indicate the highest registration the row has? --doncram 03:41, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia:WikiProject Historic sites (wp:HSITES/wt:HSITES) was created by me and others to cover ALL historic registers and properties listed in them, ranging from any local town historic registry up to national registries. To provide support for any souls taking on the good task of developing coverage of historic sites from a local register, without their having to create a new WikiProject to share their interest (which could be a disappointing experience). It is not very active relative to, say, Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places (wp:NRHP/wt:NRHP) covering U.S. NRHP sites which can be regarded as a sub-project. --doncram 03:53, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

• I think the colour-coding is a good idea; there doesn't seem to be any particular colours in use (other than mission brown! and nothing like blue plaques) so I guess we can just assign whichever (and probably put in a template so it doesn't have to be repeated). The other list that I've been working on and hope to bring into Wikipedia is the red-black houses from the FSPS. I know that's not a 'proper' register or anything, and those places are probably all covered by one of the other registers, but it's the list that ended up being the first Freo municipal inventory and so has some interest.

  Oh, and what do you all reckon about the use of a table for List of heritage places in Fremantle‎ — it doesn't work well on mobile, and other than 'street' I don't think there's any advantage to being able to sort things by anything other than general precinct. I suggest it switch to a section-based layout with sections for precincts or suburbs or something. Or maybe age of building?

  Sam Wilson 10:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it's not currently working well on mobile, but perhaps with some changes the table would be more useful. Tables have worked well, including with mobiles, in many other lists of historic places, and you have quite a good start here, with descriptions and photos and location info already. I don't think sorting by street is that useful, but perhaps a neighborhood column could be added. I just added coordinates for the first couple rows, and those coordinates can be seen in now-linked Google or Bing or OSM map. For now, could I try combining the "street number" and "street" columns to make one "location" column? At the same time as adding coordinates in the location column as well. --doncram 19:35, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

possible remedies

(long talk sections become difficult to navigate - creating new section re Sam's suggestions)

As Freopedia expands and increases in size there are some issues with big lists: -

The current list has served its purpose, but has a limited usability on mobile devices as it grows in columns and length.

• Possible remedies:

1. Smaller lists with minimal text or images with links to specific items -
2. lists based on street names (not 'precinct' too much overlap and potential editorial arguments and confusion over defining)
3. lists based on tight scope - hotels, banks, offices...
4. lists based on heritage source - Nat Trust, Fhs, Nat register
5. lists based on era in which built (again like street names, we cannot afford to get lost in 'free federation' versus 'edwardian turned up' scope arguments)
6. lists based on quadrants of either blocks - physical bound blocks by streets, or quadrants on a base map for the project

Any ad-hocery with this, if it is not resolved towards a very polished manner of organizing the information and it can make the whole project look like what a dog threw up quietly under the noise of the pub next door...

If it is possible to resolve without this talk page growing into a mega discussion over details at this stage, all the better. JarrahTree 12:09, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

It is a big list, about 180 rows, I agree. I started adding coordinates so the locations can be seen in linked OSM map. A few plot out to be in North Fremantle; maybe some others will be in East Freemantle or otherwise outside of Freemantle proper. Maybe how to partition geographically will become more clear when they can all be seen on a map. --doncram 20:34, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Fremantle with one 'e' btw. Also 'fremantle proper' is another thing that has been already decided, so there arent endless discussions about that as well.

The intention - well spelt out our real life meetup a week or so back - the plan is double the size before the end of this year - of articles that is, and if possible before August - which is why the discussion is now and to resolve now not in August JarrahTree 00:44, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay then IMO it's better to try some partition sooner rather than later. Further, editing the list-article has just slowed down a lot because the coordinates info added by me. (Performance is fine still for me, when viewing the list on my mobile or on my computer, though, but your experience may vary.)

How about splitting on High Street, first? Looking at the corresponding OSM map, that would divide it roughly equally, and it is simple to understand and to label. I don't mind trying to implement that (although it will be tedious to implement the edit), even if a different partition might be chosen later. --doncram 06:33, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Further, can "West End" be defined as anything west of Pakenham (or west of Market St.?), and including the Esplanada area? I would try to split out "City Central" which I see as a label on a map, but there's no hint of any edges to that. That would make a 3-way split: West End vs. North of High vs. South of High. --doncram 08:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

IMO it's better to try some partition sooner rather than later- not so sure, we want to double the number of articles in the next 8 months. I do not think the current form is of any help - the project does consist of other editors who need to have input before anything goes any further...

From past experience - the potential debates and conversations about city central and west end is arbitrary and best ignored at this stage regarding the map, otherwise we will need to take a deep breath and see this talk page double in size and we will not go anywhere. JarrahTree 10:41, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Could you bring some of these questions to (and could other readers here please consider participating at) Talk:List of heritage places in Fremantle? Under discussion there: geographic sections...currently it seems to me that official precincts are defined and useful. Not yet under discussion there: color coding or other designation of types of heritage listing, of scope (e.g. commercial bldgs, govt, churches, terrace houses, etc), etc. It seems appropriate to discuss there where some editors who might not participate here are participating too, and I could use help there. :) --doncram 21:52, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Different subject - List of heritage place in fremantle is a different logic and topic - it is a dataset from inherit - here is a wikitown project - this is about probably the same linked articles - but different tasks. This project has more watchers than on talk participants - real life in most cases limit the time that they might get back JarrahTree 01:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

A month later: Thank you to several who participated over at Talk:List of heritage places in Fremantle. I and perhaps others perceived this discussion to be partly about List of heritage places in Fremantle (and I think it really was, including comment that it looked like a "grab bag" and needed/needs some clean-up). But at Talk:List of heritage places in Fremantle there was some confusion about that list vs. any list of places that WikiTown/Freopedia is interested in. And it was clarified that list is fairly static, and perhaps it does not need to be split, though perhaps neighborhoods will be identified in a column, and maybe it should be color-coded, or be changed in some way for better mobile-viewing, and so on. For any of that, please discuss there. Right, that list is a mainspace page and is defined differently, and is not the same as any list of Freopedia's, such as Wikipedia:WikiTown/Freopedia/Articles (a list of places targeted for Freopedia plaques).

But, is it perhaps appropriate to discuss here what if anything Freopedia would like to do to improve that list of heritage places, anyhow? Such as: could the Freopedia group take on a project of visiting all the places on that list, and getting photos where needed, and confirming or adding coordinates? And perhaps adding other information about the places? Would that be a good project to split up, which could involve volunteers productively? Whether or not it would lead to some of those places being added to Freopedia's different list of places deserving plaques, it could still be a good activity. --doncram 02:29, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

A year and a half later. Did the Freopedia group meet that week? And take on any tasks? I thot the suggestion above might have been pretty good for involving diverse people in something collectively productive. Or is Freopedia defunct, i wonder? --Doncram (talk) 21:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

In response to : Reply - I am not sure why you want to know, if as you have said it is a year and a half later, what is your interest? Please state clearly why you need to return here? JarrahTree 23:30, 9 October 2018 (UTC), my, that seems kind of unfriendly. It happens I took on the task of developing a List of fire stations worldwide, which brought me back to the Fremantle Fire Station, because it is in the category of fire stations. And I noticed "unverified" tags on the coordinates I had put in for it and other items in the list-article, and I wondered why they were there, and I was reconstructing that I had put them in somewhat defensively for the places that didn't have pics because I could not myself completely verify the locations in Google street view. (Now there is a pic for the fire station one and I started to refine the coordinates to point at the building not the street in front of it, but my device crashed.) And it reminded me I had thought/hoped that the Freopedia people would have taken this on a bit. I had hoped it would. That's why. Why not simply reply to my question? --Doncram (talk) 03:31, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

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