Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Vietnam/Archive 3

Category:Chinese chess players

This category name is highly confusing, since Chinese chess is the common English name for a different board game, and one would naturally expect it to be filled with players of Chinese chess. Any suggestions on renaming it? 70.51.9.174 (talk) 07:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

How about Chinese chess (Xiangqi) players Yellowtailshark (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_January_5#Category:Chinese_chess_players for discussion. 70.55.87.75 (talk) 05:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Vietnam/Categories

I have recursively dug up all teh categories under Category:Vietnam and I have made a request for SatyrBot (talk · contribs) to periodically sweep these cats and tag all of them with {{WPVN}} which should make things a lot more convenient, so that we don't have to find as many new articles by hand. If there are other cats which are "fully" (or almost fully) containing WPVN articles, then feel free to add it to the list in Alphabetical order, so that there are no duplicates and double-runs by the bot. Thanks, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 03:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Vietnam/Categories2 - these ones are not so obviously synonymous with WPVN and would have to be checked manually on a case by case basis.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

SatyrBot has done the run on the first 100 cats and the number of articles in teh project has jumped by around 500! Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Vietnamese Americans etc in {{WPVN}}

Hi there. Badagnani has added quite a few poker players and other people of Vietnamese descent with the Viet wikiproject and I was wondering what you thought about these being in the scope of the project. My personal opinion is that poker players, Vietnamese American politicians and businessmen shouldn't be in WP:VIET because they don't operate inside Vietnam/none of their notability is related to Vietnam (unless they were notable when they were still in VN). I think Vietnamese language singers, eg Nhu Quynh might be in the scope of the project since they are propagating Vietnamese culture. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

There is an argument for including the politicians because their notability reflects upon the standing of the Vietnamese-American community. Nothing such for the poker players. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I reverted this on Ahn Do and Khao Do, with the logic that being born in Vietnam but moving to Australia, residing in Australia, working in Australia, etc., means that they really don't fall under the scope of this project. Many (most?) Australian sportspeople are born in Europe; many of our football (soccer) players are born in Italy. But we don't tag them for WP:ITALY. The same should, I think, apply here. Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 00:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Most of the poker players were born in Vietnam. It is important that they be tagged for WPVN, because they are Vietnamese people--and the WikiProject is for articles related to Vietnam, its culture and people. We don't have a WikiProject for "people who are from Vietnam, but live in a different country," so of course WPVN is the most appropriate WikiProject to place them in. WPVN serves as a tool to draw editors interested in Vietnam and Vietnamese culture and people to easily find and improve such articles. I am such an editor, and those articles are absolutely of relevance and interest. Badagnani (talk) 01:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

No, the most appropriate project for "people who are from Vietnam, but live in a different country" is the project for the place they now reside in. Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 02:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The country from which their notability is derived.....thus, US soldiers killed in Vietnam are listed under {{WPVN}} since their notability comes from fighting in Vietnam, Overseas Vietnamese [VN born or not] who sing Vietnamese music are categorised as {{WPVN}} whereas overseas Vietnamese (born in Vietnam or overseas) who do English language hip-hop or play poker are not. Whereas a US general leading troops in Vietnam or a German professor who is known for research into Vietnamese history would be {{WPVN}} as well as their home country of operating, since they plan/work from their home country. A person who was only a kid in VN or was born overseas derives none of their notablity from VN simply from racial affiliation. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I can claim a mandate to remove these. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Chinese-derived scripts and Vietnamese names

This is becoming an issue. Some users, such as User:Badagnani and some nationalistic Chinese editors, indiscriminately add Chinese characters to Vietnamese proper names, regardless of their etymology and irrelevance. Other users, such as User:JacquesNguyen and his sockpuppets, attempt to remove all semblance of Chinese characters, regardless of its appropriateness. There needs to be a policy on this topic. To prevent misunderstandings, here are the facts:

• Chinese-derived scripts are totally absent in modern Vietnamese. This is in contrast to Korean, where students do learn them in school and Hanja characters are used, if only sparingly; or Japanese, where Kanji is regularly used. The chance of Chinese scripts making a comeback in Vietnamese is slim to none.
• Some proper names are pure Vietnamese words or are derived from non-Chinese languages.
• Most Vietnamese official documents prior to the 20th century were written in Classical Chinesse, this resulted in some native names being approximated with a near-sounding Chinese character. Other writers used Nom characters to record the proper pronunciations of the names.

First of all, I think it is improper to use Chinese-derived scripts on place names or people that did not exist 100 years ago. Second of all, while I think it is proper to include information on how a certain name was rendered in the past, putting it in the lead sentence gives undue weight to what essentially is a trivial fact. Putting it there is more likely to misinform than inform readers - it implies that Chinese-derived scripts are somehow relevant and is still widely used. Lastly, mentions of Chinese characters should provide sources - since they seem to be pulled out from the Chinese Wikipedia. Some names derived from a non-Chinese language were transcribed in Chinese for administrative purposes, but modern Vietnamese provides a truer representation of how the Vietnamese pronounced those words. DHN (talk) 19:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

To have a truly encyclopedic article, well-sourced original-script names are essential and extremely valuable to have a true etymology of each toponym (as we have, for example, for all of the U.S. states, many of whose names originate from other languages). Yes, some names derived from a non-Chinese language were transcribed in Chinese for administrative purposes, and these are also quite valuable to document for our users. The implication that any user who insists on complete documentation of the etymology of Vietnamese toponyms (as we do for all other place names in the world) is doing so out of some nationalistic purposes is quite disturbing, and should be taken back immediately. Many of these original sources (written in "nom" characters) still exist and preserve hundreds, if not thousands of years of Vietnamese history. As stated previously at least three times, the characters may be listed in a separate section entitled "Etymology" or "History," rather than in the lead. Finally, the characters added are not Chinese; they are Sino-Vietnamese. That is an important distinction. They were used in official documents written by Vietnamese, for Vietnamese, for Vietnamese use and reading. Asserting otherwise is disingenuous. Badagnani (talk) 20:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

But in the case of short articles, which is the case in most of these instances, the one sentence of etymology takes up about 25% of the article and makes it undue weight anyway. Clearly we are focusing on unimportant things too much. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is it in the lead sentence of all the province articles when the province structure was created under a modern government?? They should be removed or relegated. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Which article are you speaking of? In most place name articles, it might be better if the etymology is moved to a section titled "Etymology" or something similar. Badagnani (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not calling you or anyone else who randomly add Chinese characters to articles about Vietnamese people (like [1] this) nationalists. I'm referring to people like this guy who had been making edits that claim that the Vietnamese people originate from China. In vi.wiki, he's been adding Chinese characters to every single proper name imaginable. DHN (talk) 20:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I fully respect your motives Badagnani, but I have to agree with DHN on this one. I know that in the early 20th century every Vietnamese place name, even the smallest hamlet, had a name in Chinese characters, but that is only one aspect of the etymology of the place name. Giving the Chinese characters might imply that we think that this is a more important part of the place name's evolution than it actually is. It is a very interesting thing to research but I'm not convinced that WP is the best place for it. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I happen to agree with Badagnani on this one, at least as far as it pertains to historical topics. As a historian of pre-modern East Asia with a strong interest in Viet Nam (and as someone who is pretty good with kanji but knows nothing of Vietnamese written in the modern alphabet-based form), I find these things very interesting, if not out-and-out important. What purpose is served by not providing this information? Are we not here to share knowledge with the world? Withholding the Hán Tự is no different I think from withholding the diacritics, pronunciation guide, or in fact, any other aspect of the topic whatsoever. More to the point, please don't jump to conclusions and accuse people of pushing a nationalist agenda, introducing politics into a situation where it may not be relevant. We have a policy on Wikipedia called Assume good faith. I suggest you consider practicing it. LordAmeth (talk) 14:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind moving such information down in the articles to a section entitled "Etymology" or "History" or something, rather than including it in the lead (as it is currently in most of the province articles). Blnguyen is adding names of the districts now and those should have their place name etymologies dug up and given as well, as it seems clear that many of them have interesting etymologies. Badagnani (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Do please consider helping to insert the area size and population stats and other information before the Etymology please.... WP:UNDUE is becoming a massive problem. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 21:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It could be a good idea to put the Han tu names in Etymology sections. I wonder if there are enough good sources for place name etymologies. As I understand it, by the 19th century Vietnamese villages had to have a name that "made sense" in Chinese, at least to the extent that it could be written in characters. That led to some alteration of the originals that were either in Vietnamese or in a minority language depending on where they were located. I have some familiarity with English and French placenames. There is an English Place Names Society and there has been a great deal of research over the years. Even still, there are many folk etymologies still quoted in guidebooks. Also, there have been several disputes in WP over the etymologies of Indian town place names. It would be good if we could avoid that in relation to Vietnam articles. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, God, no--multiple sets of characters for place names (old and new)? What a mess. Now I see why they went to quoc ngu. In any case, old sources do still survive so this can be a cumulative process. In many cases, such as Hạ Long or Cửu Long, the place names are well known and easy to figure out (and, of course, interesting). Badagnani (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I have just removed your "Han Tu" note for Cửu Long. This province was created in 1976 when Vietnamese did not use Chinese characters for a long time, so why does it need that note. Maybe you misunderstand this province with the "river" vi:Cửu Long Giang, in that case, a Chinese characters (九龍江) is necessary because it existed before 1945. Rungbachduong (talk) 00:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Shall we attempt to establish a set guideline on this? I would like to propose that Chu Nom be included, either in the lead sentence in parentheses or in a sidebar infobox as is done for CJK topics, for those historical topics whose names are derived from Chinese, and for which the Chu Nom is thus relevant. I'm not positive what the cut-off year should be, though, as I'm not that familiar with the history of the language. Of course, if people don't like my proposal (or my wording), other proposals should be most welcome. What is most important, I think, is that we establish a guideline, whatever form that may take. Thank you. LordAmeth (talk) 10:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

We should have a chữ nôm and hán tụ box with an explanation what they are and when they are relevant (for example, chữ nôm is relevant for historical documents dating between the 13th- and 20th-century). While I understand DHN's concern for irrelevance or misleading Chinese origins, the Chinese have documents that talk about Vietnam as well, and I find it frustrating to see articles like Nanyue written completely in pinyin which is spelled differently than using quốc ngữ. I have to raise my Chinese literacy level just to understand that Ōuluò refers to Âu Lạc. I see that there is a discussion of a suggested infobox below. Yellowtailshark (talk) 02:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Districts of Vietnam

They should all exist now. Hopefully the lists I was using was correct. A double-check would be nice. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This is incredible. Wish someone would do this for all the missing counties in China :) Badagnani (talk) 00:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well the articles were really basic and could have been written a bot. Then it would have taken about 2-3 hours instead of about 15-20. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

And SatyrBot (talk · contribs) has stamped them. Districts are 2nd level divisions in VN, and Phuong are 3rd level, about 10500 of them......As far as WP:AUS goes, third level divisions (suburbs, corresponding) have articles - most have been created. And with 10,500 phuong around, that makes about 8500 Vietnamese people to a phuong, so, they're notable too if anyone wants to get cracking. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, just having the stubs allows users (including Wikipedians who actually live in these parts of Vietnam) to easily add information, more and more. Badagnani (talk) 03:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Need diacritics

At Thach Thi Ngoc. Badagnani (talk) 05:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This article lacks references and the person might not be notable besides being an Olympian. We need some record that shows that she was indeed an Olympian. This article gives her name as "Ngọc Thị Thạch". DHN (talk) 06:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The article was added by User:Bnguyen. Badagnani (talk) 06:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

That user had been adding many articles on many non-notable people, such as "first Vietnamese-American solder to die in Iraq", "first Vietnamese-American police officer of a city", etc. When an article he created is about a notable person, his description of them does not make it clear how they're notable; for example, his description of Nguyen Khanh was that he was born in South Vietnam and is an ardent anti-communist. DHN (talk) 06:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

And random council staffers in Garden Grove etc, etc. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

TET! TET! TET IS COMING!

thumb|200px|right|EATTTT!!! Hmm, am I the only one who feel overjoyed when Tet is coming? :)) Should we do something to celebrate the happiest time of the year? I have one week off, hooray!!! First we begin with banh chung. I found a very "delicious" image for those who find it impossible to colLect enough stuffs to make banh chung on their own. I can't find a free image, though, but I'll take a photo of my banh chung as my grandfather finishes cooking them all. @pple complain 16:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The article Tết needs a serious overhaul. It has accumulated a lot of cruft over the years. DHN (talk) 17:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Write a few FAs, As and GAs. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia inside Vietnam

@pple - are you in Vietnam? I was wondering what Wikimedia activities occur inside Vietnam to get more participation by Vietnamese people in Wikipedia projects. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Attention

An editor is removing Vietnamese American categories. I believe Vietnamese who have lived in the U.S. for at least 5 years are usually U.S. citizens. Sometimes s/he is replacing "Vietnamese Americans" with "Vietnamese expatriates" and sometimes replacing it with "Vietnamese immigrants to the United States," but in all cases removing "Vietnamese Americans" from dozens of articles about individuals who are most likely U.S. citizens. Can others please chime in or invite this individual to create a discussion here before doing such a thing? Badagnani (talk) 04:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Category:Immigrants to the United States

Hello. I m at work adding to Category:Vietnamese immigrants to the United States to complete work on Category:Immigrants to the United States. Several pages for Vietnamese in the U.S. are not specific on whether the person has gained citizenship or not. I ll take advice provided me and assume for now that people who have lived more than 5 years in the States have gained citizenship (including the large number of pro poker players most of whom seem to have arrived in the U.S. for poker and not because of the dislocation of the 1960s and 70s) Best regards Mayumashu (talk) 04:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, why not just wait a day or two until others with expertise in this subject chime in here? Badagnani (talk) 04:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Well immigrants do not have to have citizenship to be considered immigrants. There is such as thing as "undocumented immigrants" (or more pejoratively, "illegal immigrants"). Regardless, they are still immigrants. There is also a sizable number of Vietnamese Americans who are lawful permanent residents but who are still working on getting their citizenship. The citizenship waiting list is backlogged, so it's not unusual to hear stories of people waiting for 10 to 20 years. Yellowtailshark (talk) 02:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Need assistance with ingredients

Need help with partly-untranslated text at Mi Quang: "Pork chops are mixed with ground củ nén, pepper, peanut oil, curcuma aeruginosa powder and màu điều. Stir- frying it fast and simmering it. (Need English for bold items.) Badagnani (talk) 05:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the article is its lack of sourcing. Curcuma aeruginosa could well be a poor translation, when it is simply turmeric that is meant. I'm sure that pork chops is a mistranslation and it is really ground or sliced pork that is meant. If you don't have access to the original, then it would be best to shorten the stub to the bits that seem certain. WP isn't a how-to manual, so we don't need to include all the ingredients. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the text will be fine when we figure out what the Vietnamese means. It's normal to list what is in Asian dishes. Turmeric should be củ nghệ in Vietnamese. Badagnani (talk) 19:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Operation Camargue‎

FAC for this battle in the First Indochina War is open. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Need help at Cao Lanh

Second paragraph seems to mention (redlinked) a province that no longer exists. Badagnani (talk) 01:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Since 1976, Vietnamese provinces have been merged, separated, remerged, re-separated, spun off, etc. countless times. For an analysis of the reasons behind this phenomenon and an overview of the changes made since French colonial times, see Gerrymandering - Vietnamese Style: The Political Motivations behind the Creation of New Provinces in Vietnam. DHN (talk) 07:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

To be done

All the province articles need the correct district templates (the olive-colored ones that are in all the district articles) for that district.

Also, all the redlinks in all the province articles need to be dab'ed. Can that be done by bot? Badagnani (talk) 02:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Zodiac

I recently created the pages water buffalo (zodiac) and cat (zodiac), then created a new category called Vietnamese astrology. I think this category should be added to the list of Vietnamese categories, but I do not want to do it because I'm not sure the best way.

Also, I added Vietnamese references to ALL the Chinese zodiac animals (see the categories at the bottom of Pig (zodiac), for example). The close relationship between Chinese and Vietnamese zodiac animals makes it difficult to deal with. Should the Chinese zodiac animals be considered the same as the Vietnamese animals (except for water buffalo and cat), or should separate pages be created for the Vietnamese (and Thai, Japanese, etc.) animals, with cross-links to the Chinese pages?

Also, a table like the Chinese zodiac table would be nice:

I do not know anything about Vietnamese culture, so I hope I have not made any errors in doing this. I will watch this page for a week or so. Best regards Wakablogger (talk) 06:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC) Wakablogger

suggested infobox

{{{boxtitle}}}

{{{img}}}
English	{{{eng}}}
Quoc ngu	{{{qn}}}
Han tu	{{{ht}}}
Chu nom	{{{cn}}}
French	{{{fr}}}

-Suggested general historical infobox. say at template:vietnamese 132.205.44.5 (talk) 03:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Although some articles would be useful with template:chinese as many of the historical articles seem to cover southern China as well as northern Vietnam. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 04:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Needs diacritics

Chao tom. Badagnani (talk) 07:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Ím on the diacrtic comptuer atm with VNKeys. Blnguyen (photo straw poll) 07:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

MongHoa dress

Do we need an article on this kind of traditional Vietnamese dress? I can't seem to get the diacritics from the photographer--does anyone know them? Badagnani (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a valley called "Mường Hoa" in northern Vietnam and I'm guessing that dress is a traditional Mường costume. The model in the photo appears to be an ethnic Kinh wearing an ethnic costume of the Muong. DHN (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks; as you can see from the discussion, she claims it's entirely Viet. She's perhaps just a high school student and doesn't know better. If Muong, though, why didn't she put the "ư" in the first syllable? Personally, I think it's a form of malpractice for Flickr users to upload photos and fail to adequately describe them, even after being asked. Badagnani (talk) 19:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's an ethnic Vietnamese dress, I'll eat my hat. One of the comments said "[it makes you] look more like an ethnic [minority] girl than a kinh girl". DHN (talk) 19:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Definitely a minority ethnic costume. Blnguyen (photo straw poll) 00:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see where she referred to it as an ethnic Vietnamese costume. In other photos in the gallery where she's in that costume, she jokingly referred to herself as "Gái Bản" (Bản girl)[2]. Bản is a Vietnamese term for a mountain village, particularly indicative of the minority ethnic groups of Vietnam (another useful word is nương, referring to agricultural land in the mountains). DHN (talk) 19:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

If anything, she was cagey. I asked if it was Mong (Hmong) or Hoa (Chinese), and she just said, "it's a traditional dress of my country." What she should have said was, "No, you got the wrong ethnic group; it's not Hmong or Chinese, but Muong." That would have been the clearest and most factual explanation. Badagnani (talk) 04:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am sure that it is of Mong ethnic group (and that also means H'Mong). In Vietnam, this ethnic group called themselves Mong, not H'Mong, and if anyone call them H'Mong, they will upset.

In more detail, it is Mong Hoa. But Hoa, in this case, means flower, not China/Chinese. That why she didn't agree with you. In short, she's Flower H'Mong girl. (you can see this custume on Hmong people page- the main or here [imageflickr.com/photos/44378953@N00/2222967701]). (I think the face of this girl on Flickr.com is not real H'Mong girl, perhaps she is Kinh ethnic group and only wore this dress for taking photo :-) ).

About an artical for Flower H'Mong custume, I think it is very difficult because lack of refference and each of designs on the dress having its own meaning. Only real Hmong people can do that. Neweco (talk) 04:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Đại Nam

What is the translation of Đại Nam? "Great South"? Badagnani (talk) 04:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 04:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

SatyrBot

I'm not sure why, but this bot keeps adding {{WPVN}} to the article List of Blood+ characters. This article is a character list of the Japanese anime television series Blood+ --Farix (Talk) 12:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be some malfunction. The bot is tagging articles in the cats listed at User:Blnguyen/VN but I don't see any cats in there that would be triggering this. Can you? Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 00:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I see. Carl Fei Wang is categorised under Vietnamese manga, but redirects to the List article, and the bot seems to be following the cat in the redirect page and stamping the target page. I've removed the cat in the redirect. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 00:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The other reason may have to do with story: A few episodes are set in vietnam and deal with the vietnam war and the main characters role in the slaughter of US troops and vietnamese civies. That may have something to do with it, but that is only a guess. 75.26.19.213 (talk) 04:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Wok

Is there a vi:WP article for Wok? Badagnani (talk) 02:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Point of clarification

Should USS New Jersey (BB-62) be tagged as being within this projects scope? It was present for a year or so, hence the question. 75.26.19.213 (talk) 04:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that should be ok, since a large chunk of the article is about the NJ's service in Vietnam. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 05:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't actually see it there in the talk history at all. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 05:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Does this mean that every ship that made a deployment to/off of Vietnam during the Vietnam War falls under the scope of this project? Even if they don't, I would believe that USS Newport News (CA-148) does since the last half of her service history was spent on the gunline off Vietnam. -MBK₀₀₄ 00:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I haven't been tagging every soldier or every boat that was in Vietnam, and I haven't systematically checked yet, but if something spent 30% of their working/notability career in Vietnam, then that seems like a reasonable rule of thumb to me. The other exception was that there were a few soldiers whose bios sole notability was because of them dying in Vietnam and being posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor so since all their notability was from activities in VN, they were blanket included included. As were the recipients of the "Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry" although most of them were Americans who were awarded by the RoV govt. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 01:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

eg, there were some Infantry units that were categorised as "Units in the Vietnam War" but I skipped over it because the VN War section was about 10% of the article. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 01:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. By the 30% threshold, Newport News does apply (not tagged for this project as of this edit), but I'm not sure about the carriers that were on Yankee or Dixie Station. -MBK₀₀₄ 01:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold and tag Newport News for this project, per the 30% threshold. I'll leave the assessment to the members of this project. -MBK₀₀₄ 01:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, all. A SatyrBot (talk · contribs) tagged the article Iowa class battleship as being within this projects scope, I'm guessing as a result of the tagging of New Jersey for her role in the vietnam war. As Iowa class battleship is presently a Featured Article I wonder if I may imposes upon one of this projects members to fill in the importance of the article to this project? I am not familar with you importance scale, and I doslike leaving empty parameters in talk page banners when the article in question is Featured. Thanks in advance. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed it as a false positive and put a repel notice on the page. The bot was tagging based on the VN war cat, but in this case, teh article has only a minor mention of vietnam. Less than 5%. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 09:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Cochin reference in primary source

I apologize to ask a question not directly related to our Wikiefforts, but I am hoping that someone can help me out. I am currently reading a Japanese primary source document concerning relations between Edo period Japan and pre-colonial Vietnam. I have come across a reference to 交趾 (Giao Chỉ; the "Cochin" of Cochinchina), and while the editor's notes in my text explain that this refers to the capital of "Annam" at the time, I am not quite clear whether it refers to the Le, Trinh, or Nguyen capital, or whether it is something of a metaphor for the Trinh north as a whole, Nguyen south as a whole, or both together, i.e. Vietnam as a whole.

Any thoughts would be most appreciated. Thank you. LordAmeth (talk) 06:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Just in case it might be helpful to anyone, here's the original text I'm working from: 「慶長六辛丑年より、海外数ヶ国入貢、夏交趾舶来る、當御代海舶の来る始なり」With the inscribed editor's note: 「按ずるに、前に辨せし如く、交趾は安南の都城の地なり」. LordAmeth (talk) 06:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know much, the only book I have about that time is "Nguyen Cochinchina" by Li Tana, which talks at length between the strong trading relations between the Nguyen and the Japanese, especially through the pot of Hoi An (aka Faifo). In the old days, Cochinchina meant Nguyen territory in general. I dunno when Edo is either, but this commerce was in the 1600-1650 year range. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 06:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I should have specified what I meant by Edo period (1603-1868). I've read Li's book - it's very useful and interesting. The problem is that my Japanese dictionary indicates that the term 交趾 refers to Tonkin/Hanoi, while everything else I know (such as the Western use of the term Cochinchina) points to the southern portion of the country. ... LordAmeth (talk) 00:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

SatyrBot issue

User:SatyrBot is auto-adding the Template:WPVN on the talk page of article Policies, activities and history of the Philippines in Spratly Islands. I believe that article is not covered by WP:VIET's scope. It's about Philippines only. Read my conversation with User:SatyrTN here, for my arguments why that article is not covered with your scope. The template is not yet deleted, I'll wait for your reply. Thanks Estarapapax (talk) 16:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a false positive. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 03:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

FACs

• Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Double_Seven_Day_scuffle
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team (United States)

Are substantially about Vietnamese history. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 04:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Undiscussed page moves (again)

Once again, we've got an undiscussed page move (here) to a title with diacritics, by an inveterate undiscussed-page-mover. Is this going to continue? Badagnani (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

To support Vietnamese tone marks. The one who doesn't know this is not intellegence. Also, this one hates me so he tries to eliminate me. JacquesNguyen (talk) 01:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think diacritics should be used on things that are half English, eg Ca River, since River is clearly English. Same for provinces. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 01:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

No-one here hates anyone, Jacques Nguyen. I support diacritics and wish we could agree to use them consistently throughout - including in cases when half the word is English. But I'm looking for consensus on this. Let's discuss it properly and not fall out. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That would mean we would need to omit the diacritics on Hồng Bàng Dynasty and just about every other dynasty listed in the history of Vietnam? The only reference to Cả River when I googled for it is the Wikipedia article itself (hah! go figure). Ca River is mentioned in the Encyclopedia Britannica as well as this paper from the National University of Laos. I'd like to build up a consensus on this issue on this talk page. Yellowtailshark (talk) 04:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Need location

What is the modern-day location of "Sa Nam village, Ðông-liệt District, in the region between Mount Hùng and the Lam River," the birthplace of Phan Boi Chau? Badagnani (talk) 20:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Nghe An Province somewhere. Blnguyen (vote in the photo straw poll) 01:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

FACs

• Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Nguyen Ngoc Tho
  • Passed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Early life and military career of John McCain

Are substantially about Vietnamese history. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/State of Vietnam referendum, 1955. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
• Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/1962 South Vietnamese Presidential Palace bombing. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

"Bac Thai" Province

Hello. I'm researching the Tonkin Snub-nosed monkey, a monkey species endemic to Northern Vietnam. Animal Info says it only occurs in "Tuyen Quang and Bac Thai provinces". I can find Tuyen Quang Province, but there is no Bac Thai Province or anything similar. Was it renamed? Or is it a spelling error? Thanks if you can help me --80.108.59.151 (talk) 09:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC) (de:Benutzer:Bradypus)

User:DHN points out that there has been an epidemic of politically motivated province-splitting that the government of Vietnam has conducted over the past 30 years. If you look at Provinces of Vietnam you'll see two small provinces adjacent to Tuyen Quang Province: Bac Kan Province and Thai Nguyen Province. They probably used to be a single province. Badagnani (talk) 09:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's some confirmation of this: [3]. Badagnani (talk) 09:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Badagnani. You were right, according to this website, which I found right now, Bac Thai have been split into two provinces: Bac Kan and Thai Nguyen. But thanks nevertheless. --80.108.59.151 (talk) 11:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

CJKV taskforce

The CJKV taskforce has been created to assist in disambiguation of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese when using Kyūjitai, Hanja, Hán tự, Simplified Chinese, and Shinjitai (Kanji). If you wish to participate, please come and help out. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

24 solar terms

Does the article 24 solar terms need to be added to the project? I would find it useful if someone could comment on the relevance of this concept in contemporary Vietnam and/or the diaspora. I found it linked at Cross-quarter day, where European and east Asian calendars are linked in some pure original research. Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

They are rarely-used but are often-heard-of concepts. One popular misconception is that the dates are based on the Chinese calendar; this is not so: solar terms are purely based on the movement of the sun, so the dates will be the same (give or take a day) every year in the Gregorian calendar - it's the Chinese calendar dates that will vary each year. DHN (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I knew you would know. Please add the project banner to the article if you think it appropriate. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Question: "Thin-Hao" near or part of Hanoi

I have a question. There is a French chessplayer (and half-Vietnamese) César Boutteville, born 1917 in "Thin-Hao" near or part of Hanoi. I could not find anything about this town or village which is probably nowadays a city quarter of Hanoi. It has probably a different name today. Can anybody help me? --DaQuirin (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps that name is a corruption of Thanh Hoa (it's always been Thanh Hoa). DHN (talk) 21:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick reaction. It seems to be a distorted name. But in the available sources it is stated that he was born in the outskirts of the city (né dans la banlieue de Hanoï). So "Thin-Hao" should nowadays be part of the city!? Thanh Hoa seems to be a bit too far off (or the French get it wrong, but the man is still alive and they should know...). Is there a place in the internet to find some historic map of Hanoi region from the French colonial period? --DaQuirin (talk) 01:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I asked over at vi.wikipedia and vi:User:Dung005 answered that it's probably Thịnh Hào village. Nowadays it's called ngõ Thịnh Hào in Hàng Bột Ward, Đống Đa District, Hanoi. DHN (talk) 01:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Great, you both found the solution! Thank you very much indeed. --DaQuirin (talk) 02:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Vietnamese people in Taiwan

Hello everyone, I nominated Vietnamese people in Taiwan (include "en:" and other languages) as a candidate in Translation of the week. :) Luuva (talk) 15:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Need Vietnamese name

Need Vietnamese name for this type of drum. Badagnani (talk) 06:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Toy drum? DHN (talk) 06:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It has a name in about 6 other Asian languages, so most likely also has one in Vietnamese. The term "toy drum" could refer to other varieties of small drum for children. Badagnani (talk) 06:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Diacritics needed

Diacritics needed in Vietnamese name of Tila Tequila. Badagnani (talk) 06:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Any name given will be pure speculation unless she states it herself; which is not very likely. DHN (talk) 06:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Some of us have better Vietnamese-language skills to search on Vietnamese-language websites then others of us. Badagnani (talk) 06:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK she's never given any interview to any Vietnamese-language publication and Tila seems to be the name she's used since childhood. DHN (talk) 07:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

So where does the diacritic-less Vietnamese name come from? Badagnani (talk) 07:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Either she gave it in some interview, it's written in some legal document, or someone made it up (most likely). DHN (talk) 07:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want speculation, here are some possible names, ranked by decreasing possibility: Nguyễn Thị Thiện Thanh, Thiên Thanh, Thiên Thành, Thiện Thành. DHN (talk) 07:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Better add a citeneeded tag, then. Badagnani (talk) 07:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Caucasians in Vietnam

Can someone help at the question just posted here? Badagnani (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this is going to be very difficult to answer. "Caucasian" defines a race rather than an ethnicity. Obviously there are people who have moved to Vietnam in recent years from Europe, North America and Australia and most of these could be called "Caucasian", though they might not want to be called that. Some are expats (intending to return to their original countries), others have sought naturalisation. I don't think the expats should be counted as among ethnic groups of Vietnam since they are not citizens. As for the naturalised people, I don't know if they identify as American-Vietnamese etc. or just as Vietnamese. And on top of all that, are any statistics collected? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

They'd most likely be considered "undistinguished ethnic groups," as the Undistinguished ethnic groups in China. They can be listed at List of ethnic groups in Vietnam#Ethnic groups not included in official list. Badagnani (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Vietnam in the Dutch Empire

Hello everyone! There is a discussion at Talk:Dutch Empire#Request For Comment: Map, because user Red4tribe has made a map of the Dutch Empire (Image:Dutch Empire 4.png) that includes significative parts of Vietnam. Would you like to comment? Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

New Map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dutch_Empire_new.PNG http://www.colonialvoyage.com/ square=tradingpost (Red4tribe (talk) 16:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC))

Still OR, POV and unsourced (yours is not not a credible source). Please discuss stuff at Talk:Dutch Empire#Request For Comment: Map. This was just a request for comment, not a discussion. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 16:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Deletion proposal

See Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_April_27#Template:Chinese. Badagnani (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

FACs

• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Le Quang Tung
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ngo Dinh Can

Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Krulak Mendenhall mission

Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

China and PRC articles request to be renamed

User:SmuckyTheCat is requesting that China be renamed, and replaced by the People's Republic of China article at "China". This will greatly affect articles that use the link to China to refer to Imperial China, as they will need to be fixed. 70.55.88.176 (talk) 08:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Satyr

Have you replaced User:SatyrTN's User:SatyrBot? We at WP:CHICAGO are looking for a replacement since he is no longer active. Please respond at my talk page.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested

Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Deletion discussion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dee Luong. Badagnani (talk) 03:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Requests for ratings

Is anyone looking at these? I ask as I just added two to the page and noticed that the previous two had been added months ago. IainP (talk) 08:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Bắc Cạn

At Viet Bac, Bắc Cạn is mentioned. Is this an alternate spelling for Bắc Kạn? Badagnani (talk) 21:13, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the initial "K" sound is not proper Vietnamese, but used officially probably to give an "ethnic" feel. DHN (talk) 22:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Chà bông

Should chà bông (also called thịt chà bông) have its own article or should it just redirect to Rousong? For Tofu or Soy sauce we have a single article but, for example, for foods that are significantly different we have separate articles for Miso, Doenjang, and Tương. Badagnani (talk) 21:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Only if there is a notable difference, which I don't find to be the case. Yellowtailshark (talk) 20:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Phở tái lăn

Phở tái lăn is mentioned at the Pho article, but what is the literal meaning of this name? A Vietnamese person has told me that such a name doesn't exist, but I do see it online. Badagnani (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

tái means to cook rare. I'm not sure what lăn refers to in this case - it literally means "to roll". DHN (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the way the meat is prepared. I've been to a few phở restaurants where phở tái are different. Some are prepared with thinly slice meat, while others are more like chunks of meat, which is more typical of the way it is prepared in Northern Vietnam. I suspect Phở tái lăn merely refers to the Northern Vietnamese way of serving Phở tái. Yellowtailshark (talk) 20:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this findable? Badagnani (talk) 00:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Really? I am from Northern Vietnam and there they have all phở tái lăn, phở tái gầu, phở tái nạm whose names depend on quality of beef. @ Badagnani: Almost Phở restaurants in Hanoi serve tái lăn, not sure about other cities (and other countries), best regard :). RBD (talk) 19:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you; can you tell us what lăn means (is it in your Vietnamese dictionary)? Badagnani (talk) 01:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

What do phở tái gầu and phở tái nạm mean, and should these terms be added to the article? Badagnani (talk) 01:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I think phở tái lăn can be translated as phở with briefly fried beef, for the other two gầu and nạm, I will find answer from my friends because I am not sure how they serve them (I am not in Vietnam now). RBD (talk) 02:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, also the meaning of lăn will be great. Do you not have a good Vietnamese dictionary there? Badagnani (talk) 02:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

As DHN said, tái is rare beef. They serve rare beef by some ways. Tái lăn is rare beef by frying it for very short time (so lăn can be called briefly fry). For others, I find this web with good definition of tái nạm, tái gầu and tái sách. RBD (talk) 14:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Page move request

See Talk:Nanyue#Requested_Move Badagnani (talk) 12:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

About the article Hoa

The article Hoa needs urgent attention by an expert. It has been compromised by serial systematic bias. 122.105.150.76 (talk) 06:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

What do you have against it? It seems that you keep making assertions without backing them up with reliable sources. DHN (talk) 06:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Article Aodai

I've done quite a bit of editing on this article recently and I plan to nominate it as a "good article." Check out and see if you can improve it before it gets nominated. Also, someone other than me has to evaluate it. Kauffner (talk) 18:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Update: The nomination is on the board now. Kauffner (talk) 17:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Kauffner, can you find better WP:RS sources, like a book about Vietnamese culture from a proper publisher. Because a lot of the sources you quotes were from blogs or self-styled websites and the GA reviewer will likely ocmplain. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

colonial eras

The articles Annam (Chinese Province), Annam (French protectorate), Tonkin are somewhat mixed up. The French Annam has information more appropriate to the Tonkin article, or the Chinese Annam article. Further, there's more spillage into the Cochinchina article. I think the French protectorate/colonies should be clearly delineated in their coverage, and the Chinese colony/province article also, so that each more properly focuses in their area, instead of replicating History of Vietnam. North of Vietnam, Center of Vietnam, South of Vietnam should be the "whole" overview articles on the three zones.

• North of Vietnam - Tonkin, Chinese Annam, North Vietnam, Northern Vietnam
• Center of Vietnam - Champa, French Annam, the N/S border, Central Vietnam
• South of Vietnam - former Cambodian lands, Cochin, South Vietnam, Southern Vietnam
• etc.

70.55.87.181 (talk) 13:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

"North of Vietnam" doesn't sound like real English to me. The natural way to express this thought would be "North Vietnam," "Central Vietnam," and "South Vietnam." But those names mean something different because interest in Vietnamese history is so focused on the war years. Kauffner (talk) 16:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with Northern Vietnam, Central Vietnam, and Southern Vietnam? DHN (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

That could work. Right now they're redirects, though the Northern and southern Vietnam article defines only two regions, when historically, there were three cultural-geographic zones (China/Tonkin/North, Champa/Center, Cambodia/South). 70.55.202.181 (talk) 23:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

And the Mien Trung article leads to the central highlands only and not teh central coast. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

For the U.S., it's the Northern United States and the Southern United States, even thought the vast majority of Americans would say "the North" and "the South." The articles themselves follow this usage in their text. I would suggest a similar solution here. The main reason for dividing Vietnam into three regions isn't so much the history, but because the Vietnamese language has three major dialects. Kauffner (talk) 05:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

We need these articles, because it's better than all these links to Tonkin, Annam and CC to mean a general region. Although using T A and CC for the specific colony is fine. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 766 of the articles assigned to this project, or 18.2%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 18 June 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subsribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit Warring at Nanyue

Urgent attention is needed at Nanyue to prevent continual edit warring. User Webster121 suspected of vandalising article to advance pro-Vietnam views and utilising sockpuppetry to facilitate his serial policy violations. 122.109.98.117 (talk) 03:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

• The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
• The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
• A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 21:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Article needing some translation

Le Quang Nhac, an article about a Vietnamese composer is listed in the articles in need of translation. Some of the text is badly translated, some still in Vietnamese. I'll tag it for the project. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Nguoi o lại Charlie

There are currently no articles for either "Nguoi o lại Charlie" (At Charlie, the men stayed) or "Hat Tren Nhung Xac Nguoi" (Singing above the bodies), two popular war songs. I hope we can correct this. Listen to "Singing above the bodies." You won't forget it. Kauffner (talk) 04:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Trinh Cong Son wrote countless songs about the war, among them Bài ca dành cho những xác người (Song for the corpses), Gia tài của mẹ (A mother's legacy). You can find translations for some of the songs here. DHN (talk) 04:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I put a link to a recording of "Hat Tren Nhung Xac Nguoi" on Son's page. The name of song is now redirects there. But "Charlie" still needs a home. Did Trần Thiện Thanh write anything else worth mentioning? I think song is much more famous than either the singer or the writer and in that case information about it should be under the name of the song.

The translations don't do much for me. Music needs to be heard. Kauffner (talk) 08:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this is putting undue weight on one song out of hundreds of his songs. The song is not necessarily a tribute to the massacre victims, and its purpose might have been hijacked for use not intended by the author. Trần Thiện Thanh was also a noted songwriter. He wrote over 100 songs, among them the most famous are: Chiếc áo bà ba, Chiều trên phá Tam Giang, Anh không chết đâu anh, etc. Like many musicians who stopped working or who left Vietnam after 1975, he is largely forgotten within Vietnam (and probably unknown in northern Vietnam), but his works are regularly performed in overseas Vietnamese communities and some other (those not overtly about the war) are performed in Vietnam itself. DHN (talk) 08:25, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggest making an en:WP article for Thanh, and also for making a list of Son's songs, either at Son's article or at a separate article, the way we do for Mozart or any other composer. Badagnani (talk) 08:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Son finished writing the song on Feb. 28, 1968. He was living in Hue at that time and the massacre had just ended. What do you think was on his mind? Kauffner (talk) 13:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Protracted fighting in Hue caused massive civilian casualties. I don't think the mass graves were discovered until much later. His other song about the Tet offensive, Bài ca dành cho những xác người, described corpses lying everywhere - not being put in mass graves. The song never specifically mentioned the massacre. DHN (talk) 15:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Attention

User:Kinh Duong Vuong (contributions) is changing numbers in articles (particularly numbers of forces in various battles), always without comment or sources. Our encyclopedia has to be trustworthy but as this editor never makes comments or adds sources for such changes, I would ask that other members of this project keep a watchful eye on his/her contributions. Badagnani (talk) 20:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject suggestion

There was a proposal for a China/Korea/Japan relations wikiproject. I suggested that it be expanded to also include Vietnam. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Wikiproject_Sino-Japanese-Korean_relations 70.51.9.25 (talk) 05:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Dodgy edits at Talk:Nanyue

An IP editor has been inserting highly inappropriate comments at Talk:Nanyue under various IP addresses. Urgent attention is needed to combat their serial racial abuse and condescending claims that the Cantonese people are not closely related to the Vietnamese people. The IP editor has been suspected of being a sockpuppeteer. David873 (talk) 05:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Project talk page tagging

Blnguyen had requested me for the service of TinucherianBot to tag articles in the categories in Wikipedia:WikiProject Vietnam/Categories for the WikiProject Vietnam. I request the members to kindly have a look and to carefully verify ALL the categories and remove all the possibly wrong categories. Dont misunderstand by being cautious here , as we have faced many issues with such huge scale bot tagging before (see WP:BON#TinucherianBot ). Once I get the final go ahead, I will start the bot with the final list. Thank you for choosing TinucherianBot for the project,. It is a pleasure working for this project -- Tinu Cherian - 05:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I am leaving a msg on the talk pages of all members -- Tinu Cherian - 05:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

For example, Category:Yi people has mostly China-related content. We should be cautious about some of these. Also, the history categories may include things like World War II, which shouldn't be tagged with WPVN. Badagnani (talk) 06:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for not being a subject expert on Vietnam. But I am sharing below some of the categories found in the list. Can someone see if the categories mentioned are relavent to be completely tagged ? It will be good if you could go into the categories and have a check on the articles.

1. Category:American military personnel killed in the Vietnam War
2. Category:American people of the Vietnam War
3. Category:Americans of Vietnamese descent
4. Category:Asia Entertainment
5. Category:Battle of Ia Drang
6. Category:Battles and operations of the First Indochina War
7. Category:Battles and operations of the Vietnam War
8. Category:Battles involving Vietnam
9. Category:Battles of the Sino-French War
10. Category:Birds of Vietnam
11. Category:Buddhist crisis
12. Category:First Indochina War
13. Category:Gin people
14. Category:Military campaigns involving Vietnam
15. Category:Military history of Vietnam during World War II
16. Category:Opposition to the Vietnam War
17. Category:Paris by Night singers
18. Category:Paris By Night
19. Category:Sino-French War
20. Category:Tai history
21. Category:Tai peoples
22. Category:Third Indochina War
23. Category:United States military bases of the Vietnam War
24. Category:Vietnam War amphibious warfare vessels of the United States
25. Category:Vietnam War auxiliary ships of the United States
26. Category:Vietnam War cruisers of the United States
27. Category:Vietnam War destroyers of the United States
28. Category:Vietnam War frigates and destroyer escorts of the United States
29. Category:Vietnam War ships of the United States
30. Category:Vietnam War submarines of the United States
31. Category:Wars involving Vietnam
32. Category:World War II shipwrecks in the South China Sea

If they are not to be tagged, kindly go to list and remove them.. Thanks in advance -- Tinu Cherian - 11:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Most of the categories listed directly above seem good. We need to decide if we are tagging the articles on individual US soldiers who fought in the Vietnam War and other US topics that relate to the Vietnam War. Also, I think that we can remove the categories for Sino-French War, Cambodian Civil War, and other wars that do not 100% involve Vietnam; when an individual battle or other article does relate to Vietnam, it will be under another category, such as "Battles involving Vietnam" and will get tagged. ... I'm going to remove those war categories from the list. LordAmeth (talk) 13:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think the two on Tai peoples were relevant. More interestingly, CAT:Gin people is a subcat of People of Vietnamese descent, which could be tagged as a whole. There may some other cases where we could come up a level on the cats. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Can somebody look into the rest of categories regarding United States ? Are they appropriate, people might just oppose tagging them as Vietnam too ... -- Tinu Cherian - 12:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's something we need to discuss as a Project, perhaps along with others, such as the Military History Project, as to whether or not we consider these things to be within our purview, rather than simply a matter of any one of us looking at the categories and deciding... I raised the same issue some time ago, before there was a Vietnam Project, here, and there wasn't much response or discussion, so I don't know if the matter was ever really resolved. LordAmeth (talk) 17:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed the ones I crossed out. For the US personnel killed in VN, these are basically all Medal of Honor recipients, soldiers who were notable for getting killed by doing something very brave. As all their notable activities occurred in VN, I left it in there. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

So shall I consider Wikipedia:WikiProject Vietnam/Categories as the final 'cleaned' up list. I will start the bot run soon...To be 'safe' , I will run the categories that invoves US men and military , the war categories on the second phase... I will keep updated of the progress... -- Tinu Cherian - 06:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes please. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanq..  Doing... : I am working on configuring the bot on the categories -- Tinu Cherian - 07:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Phase 1 is starting soon User:TinucherianBot/Autotagg/WPVIET -- Tinu Cherian - 07:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

 Doing... : Started ! -- Tinu Cherian - 05:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Phase 1 : Completed -- Tinu Cherian - 10:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Phase 2 : Completed -- Tinu Cherian - 16:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Phase 3 : Completed -- Tinu Cherian - 19:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Phase 4 : Completed -- Tinu Cherian - 02:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Phase 5 : doing -- Tinu Cherian - 02:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Tinucherian; you are one of the best Wikipedians. You've helped us a lot. Badagnani (talk) 16:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Badagnani for your kind words. -- Tinu Cherian - 16:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This is the list of last Phase (5) categories, possibly a list of 'risky' categories:

Category:American military personnel killed in the Vietnam War , Category:Battle of Ia Drang , Category:Battles and operations of the First Indochina War , Category:Battles and operations of the Vietnam War , Category:Battles involving Vietnam , Category:Birds of Vietnam , Category:Campaigns of the Vietnam War , Category:Congressional opposition to the Vietnam War , Category:Fauna of Vietnam , Category:First Indochina War , Category:Military campaigns involving Vietnam , Category:Military history of Vietnam , Category:Military history of Vietnam during World War I , Category:Military history of Vietnam during World War II , Category:Military operations involving Vietnam , Category:Military operations of the Vietnam War , Category:Naval battles involving Vietnam , Category:North Vietnamese Vietnam War flying aces , Category:Paracel Islands , Category:Second Indochina War , Category:Spratly Islands , Category:Third Indochina War , Category:United States military bases of the Vietnam War , Category:Vietnam War amphibious warfare vessels of the United States , Category:Vietnam War auxiliary ships of the United States , Category:Vietnam War cruisers of the United States , Category:Vietnam War destroyers of the United States , Category:Vietnam War frigates and destroyer escorts of the United States , Category:Vietnam War military equipment , Category:Vietnam War ships of the United States , Category:Vietnam War submarines of the United States , Category:Vietnam War , Category:Wars involving Vietnam

Can some one go through the above and let us know if any of the categories above need to avoided ? Thanks in advance. -- Tinu Cherian - 04:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

They look ok. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Phase 5 : Completed.

 Completed : Over 4000 article talk pages were edited including new additions and fixing banner redirects ....It was a pleasure working for this project. Now that I have gained 'confidence' in your project categories, next time it should be much easier. Don't hesitate to ask my Bot for help for your project again :) -- Tinu Cherian - 16:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Tagging by the bot

Please report the issues below. We will work on them.

Question the following tag

I wonder if tagging Plum Village is appropriate. Plum Village is a Buddhist monastery in France, and while it was started by Thich Nhat Hanh, it is not exclusively for Vietnamese people. Nightngle (talk) 14:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

What does it hurt to tag it? In any case, I figure that at least some people here at WP:VN would be more qualified to watch over, edit, expand the article than the average WP:France editor, right? LordAmeth (talk) 16:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I feel the same way. Badagnani (talk) 16:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Plum Village was tagged because it was under Category:Overseas Vietnamese Buddhist temples -- Tinu Cherian - 04:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think these should be included/tagged with WPVN. Badagnani (talk) 05:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Except that Plum Village is not a Vietnamese monastery, so it seems misleading. The monastery isn't in the WP:France project, but is in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Buddhism which would cover any "watching over" it needs with no problems. Nightngle (talk) 16:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not in Vietnam but then neither are many Vietnamese people. The leaders are Vietnamese and the article is chock full of quoc ngu names. I'm a member of WPVN and I would like to improve it for this reason, so it seems a good fit. Badagnani (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Warning! High risk of severe spamming and vandalism

User Nefbmn has been inserting extremely offensive commentary about ethnic Vietnamese and a number of other ethnic groups at various talk pages recently. In particular, Talk:Nanyue needs to be watched closely for any signs of abuse. David873 (talk) 05:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Request for verification

There's been a request for verification at Lý Long Tường, by an editor who cannot read Vietnamese (and thus cannot cross-check with vi:Lý Long Tường, but who nevertheless believes that this article smacks of pseudo- or invented history. All you Vietnamese history buffs, please check in. Badagnani (talk) 00:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Funny Business at Hoa

It seems that any attempt to suggest that the Hoa people and their descendants are ethnically Vietnamese is met with amusement or disgust; this is despite the fact that no one has a problem with the notion that Hoa people and their descendants living in the US are Vietnamese American, not Chinese American. More editors who actually know their Vietnamese history need to check it out.
By the way, it is ironic that Hoa is rated as a high importance article for WikiProject Vietnam given that it seems to experience far less input from editors of Vietnamese background than from Overseas Chinese (the article is considered "low importance" for WikiProject China). David873 (talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Borrowed Scenery in traditional East Asian gardens

I was bold and moved the article "Shakkei and the picturesque", a title no one would ever search for or link to, to the far more common and straightforward "borrowed scenery". I have done a little to bring a more worldwide view (i.e. not just Japan) into the intro sentence, and added the East Asian languages template, to represent the different ways this term is pronounced in different languages.

A lot of work needs to be done to expand this out to cover the Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese (and other?) applications of this concept, not just the Japanese, and the Korean and Vietnamese words need to be added to the language template at the top.

I am no expert on this subject, especially not on the non-Japanese aspects/versions of it, and so I apologize for leaving it in this half-done state, and implore anyone with an interest and an expertise in traditional East Asian gardens to contribute whatever you can. Thank you. LordAmeth (talk) 17:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Severely Problematic POV Pushing

Everyone who knows Vietnamese history should check out First Chinese domination (History of Vietnam) immediately. There are crucial omissions. The article appeared after User:Kinh Duong Vuong turned the former redirect to Nanyue into a fully fledged article. David873 (talk) 01:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Need diacritics

Need diacritics at Nguyen Hop Doan. Also, why do most of the external links deal with subjects other than the subject of the article? It doesn't make sense. Badagnani (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Need help at Battle of Bạch Đằng River (938)

User:Rungbachduong seems to believe that the article Battle of Bạch Đằng River (938) is factually accurate and neutral. However, I believe otherwise. There is only one reference to a government-controlled website that I believe is a mousepiece of the Vietnamese Communist Party (or their sympathisers) and thus unsuitable for use at Wikipedia. Of more concern though is the overall quality of the article. David873 (talk) 00:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The point here is not believe or disbelieve, I just removed those improper templates that you are trying to put everywhere because of your argument. I recall one more time that we use sources and references after Wikipedia:Verifiability, not after your criteria, so please do not show them here or other articles. Thank you.

If anyone notice improper templates put by David873 in articles relating with Vietnam's subject, please remove them and remind him. Thank you. RBD (talk) 01:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Verifiability makes it very clear that sources that have a poor reputation for fact-checking are usually not suitable; this means we do not use state-run sources unless other high-quality sources can be used to support the information being presented. After all, a newspaper article produced by a Vietnamese media outlet (regardless of the language that it is in) does not constitute a mainstream newspaper article in the English-speaking world. Is there an exception here?

Perhaps it is time that this issue be referred to the reliable sources noticeboard. David873 (talk) 01:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Until wikipedia has your "this means", we will still use source from Vietnamese publisher, thank you for your concern. If you think that this is necessary to refer something to noticeboard, so do it and no need to show your argument here, thank you one more time. RBD (talk) 01:52, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Just make sure sources are reliable and NPOV. But, there are indeed some English-language sources about these historical subjects. Badagnani (talk) 01:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

See this one. Badagnani (talk) 01:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Vietnam

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Wok hei

Does a Vietnamese equivalent exist for the Cantonese term Wok hei? Badagnani (talk) 23:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Image needs replacement - Phan Huy Quat

Hello all...

An image used in the article, specifically Image:Dr Phan Huy Quat.jpg, has a little bit of a licensing issue. The image was uploaded back when the rules around image uploading were less restrictive. It is presumed that the uploader was willing to license the picture under the GFDL license but was not clear in that regard. As such, the image, while not at risk of deletion, is likely not clearly licensed to allow for free use in any future use of this article. If anyone has an image that can replace this and upload it, it would be best.

You have your mission, take your camera and start clicking.--Jordan 1972 (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinese New Year

There is a content dispute at this article, see Talk:Chinese New Year Part of it involves Tet 70.51.10.188 (talk) 04:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Accents

Should we move every province name to its version with accents? --Againme (talk) 15:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

FYI: New articles

A bot has been set up, which looks through the new Wikipedia articles and picks up those that are likely related to Vietnam. The search results are available at User:AlexNewArtBot/VietnamSearchResult and are normally updated on a daily basis. Colchicum (talk) 01:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Kingdom of Humanity

Confusion about this article, on a micronation that may or may not have been formed in the Spratly Islands (claimed by Vietnam) has been brought to the reliable sources noticeboard. The article currently comes under this project. Anyone able to cast an eye over it and suggest improvements? Should the article continue to belong to the project? Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Well if it isn't deleted and did cover the Spratlys, then yes. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 01:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Titles of Vietnamese Articles

This is an english encyclopeadia. Many Vietnamese articles here in the english wiki are titled in quoc ngu such as the Au Lac article. Any input?Sea888 (talk) 10:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

My vote is for us using diacritics throughout. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Using diactrics should be stated at the beginning of the articles like the examples used with Han Tu. Keep in mind that this is an english encyclopeadia. For example, taken from the An Duong Vuong article:

Thục Phán apparently came upon the Âu Việt (甌越) territory (modern-day northernmost Vietnam, western Guangdong, and southern Guangxi province, with its capital in what is today the Cao Bang Province).[1] After assembling an army, he defeated King Hùng Vương (雄王) XVIII, the last ruler of the Hồng Bàng Dynasty, around 257 BCE. He proclaimed himself An Dương Vương (安陽王), "King An Dương". He then renamed his newly acquired state from Văn Lang to Âu Lạc (甌雒/甌駱) and established the new capital at Phong Khê in the present.....

1. This makes the above paragraph above very difficult to read like in a lot of the other Vietnamese articles. Inserting quoc ngu and han tu in articles just clutters the article. Keep in mind that english should be used and when the reader clicks on the link to the article, Quoc Ngu and Han Tu should be given at the beginning of the article(as of now most titles are in quoc ngu). In some Vietnamese articles, Han Tu characters are given but looks like Chinese characters to a novice reader. For example at the Lac Viet article, the introduction states:

The Lạc Việt or Lạc (雒越/駱越/貉越; Chinese: Luòyuè) were an ancient people of what is today the lowland plains of northern Vietnam, particularly the marshy, agriculturally rich area of the Red River Delta.

2. Does the above look like Han Tu to a novice reader? Han Tu characters were shown without introduction like in many Vietnamese history articles. The novice reader could not recognize the characters above as Han Tu and may refer to it as modern Chinese characters.

3. This makes the articles very difficult to read. Inserting han tu without referring it as han tu is confusing.

4. Why is Han Tu taken precedence over quoc ngu? The title should be in english, then the diactrics should be presented in the beginning instead. Like this:

The Lac Viet or Lac(Quoc Ngu: Lạc Việt or Lạc; Han Tu: 雒越/駱越/貉越; Chinese: Luòyuè) were an ancient people of what is today the lowland plains of northern Vietnam, particularly the marshy, agriculturally rich area of the Red River Delta.

5. This is a modern english encyclopeadia and there is a page on quoc ngu and han tu. A few editors have abused the translations in the articles giving it a sinocentric point of view where readers mistakenly think of modern Chinese characters instead of han tu.

Another example taken from the Trung Sisters article:

The Trung Sisters (c. 12 - 43 AD), known in Vietnamese as Hai Bà Trưng (literally "the two Ladies Trưng"), and individually as Trưng Trắc (徵側) and Trưng Nhị (徵貳), were two 1st century Vietnamese women leaders who successfully repelled Chinese invasions for three years, and are regarded as national heroines of Vietnam.

Another example:

Early in his reign, Emperor Gaozu (漢高祖: Hán Cao-tổ) gave three commanderies (郡) to Prince of Changsha Wu Rui (吳芮:Ngô Nhuế), and appointed Yao Wuyu, Marquis of Haiyang (海陽侯徭無餘: Hải-dương Hầu Diêu Vũ Dư) and Zhi, Prince of Nanhai (南海王織: Nam-hải Vương Chức). Emperor Gaozu also put an army in Changsha state to watch over the movements of the Nanyue kingdom, which made Zhao Tuo worry about this situation. Zhao Tuo took opportunity on trading and imported things in large amounts from the Central Plains, and Zhao Tuo also gave tribute to central authotity. After Gaozu died, Emperor Hui of Han(惠帝: Hán Huệ-đế) succeeded him. The new emperor respected the treaty made by his father, and so did Zhao Tuo.

To the novice reader, is the above Han Tu? Is it Chinese? Is it chu nom? Above all else, will they know that they are reading quoc ngu? This practice has made most of the english wiki articles unreadable and many of them need to be cleaned up. Making the titles english will help relieve editors of making these translations all over the article. Its a mess and there needs to be a consensus soon!!!Sea888 (talk) 12:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I can certainly appreciate that it looks cluttered when so much diacritics and Han Tu are included. But I think this makes it look more formal, more professional and academic. It's also more informative, and more correct. Despite your assertions to "use English", which I can appreciate, none of these words are English. "Lac Viet" is not an English word any more than "Lạc Việt" is; look it up in a basic Webster's English dictionary or the like and I'm fairly certain you won't find it. So, as long as it's a foreign word anyway, you might as well spell it correctly. For those who do read Vietnamese, for those who want to understand the correct, tonal, Vietnamese pronunciation, and particularly for those who are in the process of learning Vietnamese, this will come in quite useful. We've had lengthy conversations on the subject on the Japan-related talk pages discussing the same issues - "wako" may look more like normal English than "wakō", but to those who know anything about the Japanese language, it's misleading and confusing, as it's representative of an incorrect spelling (i.e. わこ instead of the correct spelling わこう).

As for the Han Tu issue, I don't think it's a problem. Whether in Han Tu, traditional/classical Chinese, or Japanese kanji, "Vietnam" is I believe still 「越南」。 Outside of nationalistic or ethnic pride issues or the like, I don't understand the need to clarify this as definitely Han Tu and not Chinese, i.e. how dare you put a foreign language into articles about my culture? ... As someone who doesn't speak or read Vietnamese at all, but whose Japanese is at a fairly advanced level, I gain a lot of understanding, insights, and meaning from the inclusion of the characters, whatever you call them.

To take the example you're offering, "(Quoc Ngu: Lạc Việt or Lạc; Han Tu: 雒越/駱越/貉越; Chinese: Luòyuè)", this is incorrect and misleading. Luòyuè is not Chinese; it's pinyin, or simply the romanized pronunciation guide to the Chinese. The actual Chinese is one or all of the compounds labeled here as Han Tu. So it would be much more accurate to write it as: "(Quoc Ngu: Lạc Việt or Lạc; Han Tu/Chinese: 雒越/駱越/貉越; Chinese pinyin: Luòyuè)" or something like that. If that's too cluttered, if it bothers you that the Chinese pronunciation should be included in this Vietnamese topic article, put the Chinese information in a footnote. I'm a big fan of the idea of putting excess information in footnotes rather than omitting it entirely.

Again, I appreciate that it can look cluttered, and that it looks foreign and confusing and not quite English... and I can thus understand the argument of "this is the English Wikipedia." But, really, I feel that this isn't a matter of using the English word for something instead of the foreign word (e.g. Nguyen Lords instead of Chúa Nguyễn) which is perfectly advisable in many contexts, but is rather a matter of watering things down. "Lac Viet" isn't English; it's just a watered down version of Vietnamese, meaningless to the English-speaking reader who doesn't know Vietnamese, and incorrect, potentially unrecognizable, and not pronounceable to those those do know Vietnamese. In my view, it is always better to represent things as correctly as possible, not in a watered down version. LordAmeth (talk) 15:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Well said, Milord Ameth. -- Hoary (talk) 16:06, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

If the name has an established English language version, like "Hanoi" or "Vietnam," that should be used. Otherwise, the term should be in Quốc Ngữ with the diacriticals. The best model to follow is scholarly writing that specializes in whatever the subject matter is. The scholarly standard is to use diacriticals if there are no technical barriers. At this point, you'd have to have a really old browser for the diacriticals to create technical difficulties. For European languages, the diacriticals go in, period. AFAIK, Vietnamese is the only language for which the Wiki community is still having this debate.

As for chữ Hán and chữ Nôm, these writing systems have a very different status than Wenyan and Kanji, their Chinese and Japanese counterparts. The traditional Chinese-based writing systems are not taught at all in modern Vietnam. Putting them in is the equivalent of providing an Anglo-Saxon translation for a modern English name. It gives an English speaker the impression that Vietnamese still use Chinese characters in their writing, at least to a limited extent. This is emphatically not the case. Kauffner (talk) 16:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; moreover the characters may actually mislead readers like LordAmeth who are literate in one or more character-based writing systems. I understand, for example, that every Vietnamese placename has or has had a Chu Nom or Han Tu version, but that this may well be a folk etymology. Of course our articles are written in English and we keep Vietnamese to a minimum, but we have to use some terms occasionally: proper names, article titles. These are written in the Latin alphabet with diacritics simply because that is how Vietnamese is written. Luckily English and Vietnamese share a writing system and we avoid transliteration difficulties. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:23, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

This is of course true. As you say, many of the Han Tu versions of the placenames etc are folk etymologies or otherwise misleading; and for the uninitiated reader, it could give the false impression that Vietnam still uses characters. On the other hand, as I have expressed elsewhere, in previous discussions, I think that for historical topics (such as Nguyễn Hoàng but not Ho Chi Minh City) the Han Tu can be quite useful and interesting. I recently did a research project which centered around letters exchanged between Nguyễn Hoàng and Tokugawa Ieyasu; if I didn't know the Han Tu for "Nguyễn Hoàng", "Quang Nam", etc., the project would have been a lot more difficult. And, now that I know that Nguyen was written 阮, a character related to 元 and pronounced as gen in Japanese and yuan in Chinese, it gives me new insights into how the languages are related, how to better guess at the pronunciation of Vietnamese words based on looking only at the Han Tu, etc. LordAmeth (talk) 00:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

• Agree with Kauffner: If the name has an established English language version, like "Hanoi" or "Vietnam," that should be used. Otherwise, the term should be in Quốc Ngữ with the diacriticals. Keep in mind that if we use the letter "D" to substitute for Đ, it changes the sound entirely. Badagnani (talk) 18:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

• To solve problems of clutter, etymological information (including Han tu) can always be moved out of the lead and into etymology sections that occur later in the article. Badagnani (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

There were good responses to the topic at hand. But looking back at the examples I presented before hand, diactrics, transliterations, quoc ngu, han tu, pinyin, etc would only be written once on the page. It solves the problem with clutter throughout the article and scholarly an etymology section wouldn't be needed unless there were technically two or more variant explanations for the title. If the "spelling" of the english language is used without diactrics the translations presented at the beginning of the page helps the novice reader avoid the confusion. It's not the inclusion of the word that has to be in the english dictionary only the characters that have to be consistent throughout. So "D" would be used throughout the article and "Đ" shown at the beginning of the page to help the novice reader avoid the confusion. As seen with the previous examples there are tons of inconsistencies in the articles with diactrics and regular characters interwined. The articles with these inconsitencies would get worse over time unless every editor had access to diactrical marks.Sea888 (talk) 21:45, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

• The use of diacritics is fine (and helps differentiate the Ds) unless there is an English name, such as Hanoi, Vietnam, or Saigon. Badagnani (talk) 21:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

With the articles titled in diatrics and not included as English, the edits made by those without access to diactrics, multilingual or not, may constitute as vandalism and the words would continue to intertwine.Sea888 (talk) 21:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

• There's no problem with that because we have redirects from the non-diacritic forms (not "diatric"). It's certainly not vandalism to have the diacritic forms, which helps make our articles more encyclopedic (as Wikipedia is a multilinqual project). Badagnani (talk) 22:26, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Sea888, if you want to add material to a Vietnam-related article but can't access diacritics, no-one will call you a vandal for that reason. Leave a message here and someone will help you. And when articles shift between the two forms, again let's leave messages here. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Users without access to diactrics will continue to edit where redirects are not neccessary contesting with edits in diatrics(for example, using the title in the same page) making this minor inconsistency a tool for vandalizing and cluttering the page. Redirects should be the same word throughout the page in the English wiki with the lead in the article explaining the variations after redirection. That is the only way to maintain a scholarly, consistent, and encyclopeadic page.Sea888 (talk) 00:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

• The term is "diacritics," not "diactrics." Simply use them throughout an article where there is no English name and there won't be a problem. The diacritics allow bilingual editors to differentiate between Vietnamese words that may have different tones or pronunciations, and also allow for multilingual searching. The diacritics don't clutter any pages as those who don't know what they mean simply ignore them. Badagnani (talk) 01:25, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree because of the inconsistencies and editors simply insert characters all over the place. There is evidence that users simply do not ignore the topic at hand, several on this page. The title should be in english and quoc ngu listed on that page for clarification according to this[4]. Sea888 (talk) 21:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

If the problem is only the title of an article, then something like {{chinese}} or {{Infobox Korean name}} is in order... English, han tu, chu nom, quoc ngu, etc can all be accomodated in an infobox at the side of the article. Then for inline, use something like {{Nihongo}} or {{zh-tspw}} 76.66.198.171 (talk) 07:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)