Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains/Archive: 2007, 1

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Catch points and trap points

I've been working my way through the Railroad switch article, mostly tidying up and copyeditting. I'm up to the section on run-off points, and I'm a little confused. The definition of catch points given in the article is pretty much completely contradicted by the artice Catch point.

I would have gone with the definition in the Railroad switch article, i.e. trap points protect the running line from runaways and overruns at exits from yards and loops etc., whilst catch points are on the main line itself to catch runaways. I would also say that catch points are usually spring loaded to allow traffic to proceed in the uphill direction, but not downhill, unless the catch points are held in position from the signal box.

I don't know if there is some difference between UK and US terminology that is leading to this contradiction / lack of clarity. It would be good if we could have both the Catch point and Railroad switch articles clear and in agreement, so hopefully people can help sort the issue out!

→Ollie (talk • contribs) 20:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but I am not aware that UK terminology distinguishes between the two types referring to them all as "Catch points". If so and one article is in AE and the other BE it would explain the contradiction. Thryduulf 23:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Neither "trap points" nor "catch points" is an Americanism. The American term would be "derail", or perhaps "safety switch". Choess 04:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

In British terminology, there is indeed a clear distinction between catch points and trap points. Definitions for each are given in British Standard No.719 Glossary of Terms Used in Railway Signalling of 1936 and, more recently, Rail Safety & Standards Board's Glossary of Signalling Terms dated 2004. Signalhead 19:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Wheel Arrangements

Since the UIC wheel arrangement notation gives the most information I think it should allways be included in locomotive articles. For certain locos such as UK and American steam both Whyte and UIC notation should be given. For American diesels both AAR and UIC notation should be given. Be carefull to give correct UIC notation, e.g. Co'Co', not Co-Co. Here a big clean-up is neaded, both to add missing UIC notation and to correct erroneous UIC notation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Olert (talk • contribs) 06:37, January 1, 2007.

Makes sense to provide the information, kind of like unit conversions for distances. We've already got the uicclass parameter in {{Infobox Locomotive}} for it. Slambo (Speak) 17:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

What's the best term for a "normal" railroad?

I'm looking for a term to use to distinguish a "normal" rail line from a streetcar line on Connecticut Company. I used "steam rail lines", but this was already starting to become not quite correct, with the electrification out from New York City. --NE2 12:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The term I usually see is "mainline railroad". I'm not sure if I like that one either. More often I see the streetcar lines labeled as streetcars with other lines labeled as railroads. Slambo (Speak) 15:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Passenger numbers

I'm looking for some comparative statistics of rail annual rail passenger numbers for major western countries - can anyone point me in the right direction? thanx Mammal4 14:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Presentation of rail line information

I just saw something on the German wiki that might be of interest to this project. The German wiki has IMHO a neat way of describing a particular rail line in terms of stations, junctions, bridges, tunnels, etc. For example de:Schnellfahrstrecke Köln–Rhein/Main has a box that describes the high-speed line between Cologne and Frankfurt. It seems that an attempt has been made to replicate this on the English entry (Cologne-Frankfurt high-speed rail line). All of the template information used on the German wiki is not yet in place here on the English one, which perhaps explains why the English entry looks the way that it does. Some examples of non-German rail lines are de:York Harbor and Beach Railroad, de:Boston and Maine Railroad and de:Channel Tunnel Rail Link.

Perhaps some people on this project might like to take a look at this work and maybe introduce it here. Further information can be found (in German) at de:Wikipedia:Formatvorlage Bahnstrecke. - 52 Pickup 15:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• It certainly looks cool. My feeling is that if we adopt this it needs to be in a right-hand template, out of the way. Mackensen (talk) 16:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

There are similar maps on many of the former Soviet Union metro system articles such as Syretsko-Pecherska Line, and this scheme is also in use on some US systems, such as Revere Beach (MBTA station). While the information presented is in a concise format, I fear that editors would be working especially hard on getting the track layout and station order onto an article rather than the construction and operational history of a line. Slambo (Speak) 16:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Whoops. I missed out on this discussion (thanks to being absent around New Year's), but anyhow, I've been working on porting this for a while now. I've used the infobox on a few articles (Berlin Stadtbahn and Bremen-Bremerhaven railway line, for instance), and have now started to translate the German documentation (and the template documentation) with the central template info being at WP:TRAIL. I hope to be able to finish the docs by this weekend. --doco (☏) 20:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

HSR-350x image copyright question

A discussion about copyright infringement on the drawing of the HSR-350x ([image here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HSR350x.JPG]) is going on at Robth's discussion page. Could you guys take a look at it. Thanks. (Wikimachine 20:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC))

Bay Platforms

Hi. I've started a discussion at Talk:Bay_platform about the Bay platform page which I (possibly wrongly!) started a while back. I'd be grateful if people could take a look, and maybe give some advice about the page. Thanks. Rushey Platt 18:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Generic station infobox

Hello all. I've designed a generic station infobox (Template:Infobox Station). It's modelled the Amtrak box but I've incorporated ideas from the NJT box and the hand-coded CTA tables as well. Comments welcomed. Mackensen (talk) 22:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

GACOTW candidate

I don't know how many others here monitor the various collaboration candidate pages, but stock car (rail) was nominated this morning to be the Good Article Collaboration of the week. The biggest need that I see for this article right now is in adding inline citations, but I'm sure we can find other improvements to make here. Slambo (Speak) 12:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Stock car (rail) was promoted to be this week's collaboration. I stopped in this morning to put in a few updates and I intend to add more this week. If you've got time, we could use additional help, especially in detailing the car type's development and use outside North America. Slambo (Speak) 16:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

List of railway companies#Argentina

The following sies show the current situation in Argentina: http://ca.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?http://groups.msn.com/FerrocarrilesenelMundo-/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=32 www.nca.com.ar www.ferrosur.com.ar www.all-logistica.com.ar www.ferrovias.com.ar www.tbanet.com.ar www.metropolitano.com.ar www.ferrobaires.gba.gov.ar www.trenpatagonico-sa.com.ar www.latrochita.org.ar www.ugofe.com.ar www.metrovias.com.ar www.trendelacosta.com.ar www.expresobsastucuman.com.ar www.sateliteferroviario.com.ar

Could any of the maps be used? Peter Horn 18:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC) Peter Horn 19:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Railway station articles

Wikipedia talk:Places of local interest may be of interest to anyone who has ever had to consider the problem of whether a train station/railroad station/ railway station article is valid or not in the geater scheme of things SatuSuro 23:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• Just putting a direct link to that WP:LOCAL discussion on the inclusion of railroad stations -->[7] As SatuSuro suggested, editors from this project might want to weigh in. --Oakshade 01:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Tricky - as I think it might be trying to do a number of things - needs careful read - as I _may_ have misrepresented the argument - you need to look and evaluate for yourself the issues - I come from a position of where I was concerned that a deccision in WP Local might want to justify amalgamation of railway station articles into localities where issues of sources or notability might occur. Please do not take my interpretation as an accurate rendition of the thread at Local - check it out! SatuSuro 01:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, there are a couple of Amtrak station pages I'm having trouble with. One is Savannah, and the other is Miami. For Savannah, I can't seem to get the routebox to indicate that the station is the terminus of the Palmetto, and for Miami, the Miami-Dade Metrorail section of the routebox goes in the opposite direction of Amtrak & SFRTA. If Amtrak ever brings the Sunset Limited back to Orlando, I'd like to know how to add that to the routebox as well. And I still never got any info on the Savannah Subway System. ---- DanTD 17:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• I've fixed Savannah for you. To show the terminus just leave the previous (or next field, whichever is appropriate) empty. If Amtrak brings the Sunset Limited back we can just modify the relevant template (Template:S-line/Amtrak right/Sunset Limited) to reflect that. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 17:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• • Thanks, Mackensen, although I tried to do it the same way, and it didn't work. DanTD 20:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed Miami as well. The other two services were using Template:rail line instead of s-line/s-rail. I've defined the backend for both systems now. Mackensen (talk) 14:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Cool. I'm debating whether or not I should fix the one for Deerfield Beach, because the old routebox for that one has the Palm Beach-Broward County line in it. DanTD 16:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It's all the same line though, isn't it? Mackensen (talk) 16:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Yeah, but Amtrak doesn't stop at Boca Raton station, like SFRTA Tri-Rail does. The next stop for the Silver Service is West Palm Beach station. Hey, how would a routebox look for Tampa Union Station? And is anybody else considering a page for Jacksonville or Lakeland's Amtrak stations? DanTD 16:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Problem with template:TWP

Currently this is putting some articles in Category:New York City public transportation articles with comments, and I can't figure out why. I've tried looking through the code but can't find which piece is doing that incorrectly. Can someone who is good with esoteric templates give it a look? Thank you. --NE2 02:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Note that it's been protected as a "high-risk template", so you'll have to be an administrator to fix it. --NE2 05:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that too, but also noticed that it seems to be happening only on articles that do not yet have a quality assessment. I had planned to take another look at the template code this week to fix it. Slambo (Speak) 11:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I've found the problem. I'm going to make a copy in my user space and test the fix. Mackensen (talk) 12:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that fixed it. The problem was that the code which tested whether or not there was a comments page didn't have the Underground and NYC segments nested within it. Therefore, any article marked Underground or NYC would think it had a comments page. Mackensen (talk) 12:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you; I must have screwed that up when I added NYPT functionality. --NE2 20:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Rail line for deletion

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Changi Airport Skytrain --NE2 20:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review for Australian Line

Hi - I'm getting this article peer reviewed and I'd appreciate some comments from WP Trains users. Thanks. JROBBO 02:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm only a common or garden variety Wikipedia user, but for what it's worth I think this is an exceptionally detailed and thoroughly well-researched article. My only suggestion would be whether it should remain a single article, given its length, or possibly be split into separate articles (eg a separate article for the Eastern Suburbs line, etc).

Nevertheless, I believe this is writing of a very high standard. Zzrbiker 05:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Henry E. Huntington as an article for your project on American train magnates

You may want to take a look at that article for inclusion to your project. Henry was the nephew of Collis P. Huntington and a railroad magnate in his own right. I stumbled upon him while doing some work for the Wikipedia:WikiProject California. Cheers. Ronbo76 05:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

A dumb question about Charles Hayes - was he president of Central Pacific Railroad?

Sorry to be back so soon, but while looking at The Big Four template that appears on the bottom of Collis Potter Huntington it shows that Charles Hayes succeeded him as president. Is that true? If so, the link on the Southern Pacific Railroad may point to the wrong Charles Hayes as well as The Big Four link. Could someone on this project verify that and then remove the links? There are some links to Charles Hayes on the web and he may be a project for your Wiki. Thanks, Ronbo76 06:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that one this weekend too. There was a Charles Hayes who was president of Southern Pacific. I haven't had a chance to go through my resources yet to correct the links (and I probably won't be able to get to it tonight as there are a couple other items on my todolist today). Slambo (Speak) 20:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

IRC

Hi. I just opened an IRC channel (#wikipedia-rail) for coordination and cooperation of the various rail traffic projects on en.wp, de.wp and others. What should be discussed there is for example the different styles of railroad articles in the different wikis, categorization, image uploading, etc.pp. I hope some of you are interested in that kind of discussing. Grtx, --Thogo (Talk) 16:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for general LIRR rolling stock information

I am going to be expanding Long Island Rail Road in the next week, since I just received Steel Rails to the Sunrise through interlibrary loan. I'm generally not a fan of rolling stock, so it would be great if someone else could write a summary of the LIRR's rolling stock, including its history, with citations (or see if I can find citations from the book) to help bring the article to featured status. Thank you. --NE2 18:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Another question: is there any easy way to work out the copyright status of the older images in that book, like the ones credited to libraries? If not, are there any good sources of early PD photos that could be used for the article? I can't find any on the Library of Congress site. --NE2 00:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Affluence (KCR). 61 stations up for AfD.

Project members here might want to weigh in on this. 61 (possibly all) of the Kowloon-Canton Railway stations up for AfD. --Oakshade 23:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Peer review for LIRR

Please comment at Wikipedia:Peer review/Long Island Rail Road/archive1. Thank you. --NE2 04:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone find out when the LIRR stopped being a Class I railroad? --NE2 21:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused; it currently makes more than the required $319.3 million: [8] and operated freight until 1997. But it's not in the 1984 list on Class I railroad. Is it possible that the AAR removed it after the 1966 government takeover? --NE2 21:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I need help with the rolling stock/fleet section! I only have the book for another week, so I'd appreciate it if someone can help. --NE2 00:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Scope of this project?

The scope of this project is rather broadly stated, but even so I'm reluctant to agree that this article belongs here. Nevertheless, someone has added this project's template to the article's talk page. Thoughts? --Tkynerd 03:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Section 3.5 - but it is not a substantial part of the articles content though....SatuSuro 05:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I saw that addition through the assessments log and wondered about it. My first thought is that the storm had a significant effect on rail transport in the area, but since the article is not specifically about those effects, it really shouldn't have the TWP banner. However, if we decide to keep the TWP banner there, then we should also apply the TWP banner to Hurricane Katrina for its disruption to rail transport service in the area (I consider this another reason against adding the banner to articles about storms). Slambo (Speak) 11:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree on all counts (the TWP banner doesn't belong on storm articles, the Katrina analogy, etc.). SatuSuro's point about the effects on rail transport not being the focus of the article, or even a substantial part of it, corresponds to my way of thinking about it. Seems to me that only rail- and train-focused articles should have the banner, not articles that just happen to mention the railways in the course of discussing something else entirely. --Tkynerd 13:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Please dont have me as the casting vote I would usually defer to slambos far more extensive experience here - I overlap on some issue here in australian articles about some subjects - but would tend to fend off something that is less than hald of the article content- but I have never seen a rule or policy on this at all...SatuSuro 13:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you're underestimating your very good instincts here. At any rate, I think you've got the right idea as to what should be within the scope of a WikiProject. Another good example (different projects) is Paracetamol, which I frankly don't think belongs within the scope of the Dogs and Cats projects (see Talk:Paracetamol if you don't believe me!). --Tkynerd 13:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the banner from that article. If someone creates Kyrill's effects on rail transport or something similar, we can add the banner to that talk page. Until then, it didn't seem right on the main storm talk page. Slambo (Speak) 15:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Slambo. I didn't want to do it myself without checking over here first. --Tkynerd 15:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

How does this apply to bridges that carry road and rail, like Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg Bridge, and formerly Brooklyn Bridge? How about bus routes that replaced streetcar lines? (The latter case is moot if the bus route is discussed mainly in the context of the former streetcar line, like St. Johns Place Line.) How about bus routes operated by rail companies to replace abandoned lines or provide service where none previously existed? (I believe the B&O ran buses from Jersey City through one of the tunnels to NYC, for example.) --NE2 15:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

My rule of thumb is how the main subject of the article relates to rail transport. Road-rail bridges are a part of rail infrastructure, so they should be included in the project's scope. Former streetcar lines are still former rail infrastructure, so they are included in the project's scope. Road services provided by rail transport companies are part of rail transport company operations, so they are included in the project's scope. Similarly, hotels built by railroad companies, like Canada's grand railway hotels, are structures that were built by the railroads to generate rail traffic, so they are within the project's scope. The Queen of the Sea train disaster was caused by the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, but only the article about the rail accident is within the project's scope because it is specifically about the effects of the earthquake on rail transport operations. At least, that's how I've been thinking about it. Slambo (Speak) 16:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Further, the Boston molasses disaster affected rail transport, but the article is about the molasses tank accident and not specifically its effects on rail transport, so the article is not a part of the project's scope. Slambo (Speak) 16:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Railroad vs. Rail Road

I'm confused about our use of Railroad or Rail Road in both article titles and in text. The Long Island Rail Road is a prominent example that's usually referred to as Rail Road - but that wasn't always the case; under the PRR it was Railroad. For another high-profile example, I believe the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad was chartered as Rail Road, like the LIRR, and was never rechartered. But since it called itself and was generally called Railroad, we use that. Now what should we do for long-gone companies where we don't have many sources for what it used? --NE2 19:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I see this as a question of which name is the most common for referring to the entity. The great majority of references that I see for B&O use "Railroad" even though it was created as "Rail Road". For LIRR, current practice by the company itself is "Rail Road". Slambo (Speak) 19:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

But what about a long-gone company, like the Brooklyn City Rail Road? The Brooklyn Daily Eagle refers to it as Railroad, but they never use Rail Road for any companies. Some companies never even operated; they were chartered and immediately gobbled up. --NE2 20:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are authoritative sources, albeit difficult to get to: the ICC Valuation records capture a lot of them, and the charters should be on file with the state. My suggestion would be that railroads be placed at the authoritative chartered name, if known, and if that ends in "Rail Road" or "Rail-Road", we redirect "X Railroad" to the authoritative name. (And interestingly, I see that the ICC valuation, which is usually good about recording the exact chartered name, calls the LIRR "The Long Island Railroad Company", rather than "The Long Island Rail-Road Company".)Choess 21:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

We can find out the "real name" by going to the law that chartered the company, if it was incorporated early enough that that was done. But then we have Baltimore and Ohio Rail Road and probably other similar cases. --NE2 21:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure. But then we just redirect Baltimore and Ohio Railroad to Baltimore and Ohio Rail Road, and all is well. We can even use "Railroad" in the running text. Choess 21:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a recipe for a lot of gratuitous redirection and link rearranging. It might be worthwhile to mention original charter names in articles, but in general it seems to me that the most generally used formal name (as opposed to nicknames/slogans such as "Frisco")for the railroad should be used. For paper roads, the chartered name is important if indeed it is important to have separate articles on these.

As far as the B&O is concerned, one can see in this map that they had changed to "Railroad" by 1860. I would go with 100+ years of corporate usage over the charter. Mangoe 14:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Though [9] (1878) still uses Rail Road... I'd go with more recent usage though. I've seen similar inconsistencies with the LIRR; even the current employee track charts have the "MTA Long Island Rail Road" logo but on the same page say "Long Island Railroad". --NE2 21:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Question about corporate mergers

I've finished reading part 2 (The Flushing, North Shore & Central Railroad) of Vincent F. Seyfried's The Long Island Rail Road: A Comprehensive History, and it repeats what I've seen in other sources about the formation and dissolution of the Flushing, North Shore and Central Railroad. Here are the details:

The following companies were consolidated into the FNS&C on July 20, 1874:

• Flushing and North Side Railroad
• North Shore Railroad (leased to the F&NS)
• Central Railroad Extension Company (either leased to the F&NS or operated by them without lease)
• Central Railroad of Long Island (either leased to the F&NS or operated by them without lease) "Mr. Stewart's Central R.R. was obtained by purchase, Stewart accepting about $700,000 of the bonds of the new company in payment." The company, owned by Stewart, also leased a portion of the line through Stewart's property.
• Whitestone and Westchester Railroad (unbuilt; finally built in 1887)
• North Shore and Port Washington Railroad (unbuilt)
• Roslyn and Huntington Railroad (unbuilt)

In early 1876, the Poppenhusens, owners of the FNS&C, bought a controlling interest in the Long Island Rail Road, and leased the FNS&C to the LIRR.

But now here's the problem: the LIRR went bankrupt in September 1877 and was placed in receivership in October, with the leases cancelled by the court; receiver Sharpe had to operate each company separately. And the FNS&C merger was somehow undone:

"Then, on July 9, 1879, the million-dollar first mortgage on the Central was foreclosed, with interest since March 1877. The company's entire property was put up for sale, excepting the sixteen miles of the Stewart-owned portion, the lease of which was to go with the sale."

"The North Shore section, extending from Flushing to Great Neck, built as a separate road in 1866, and operated all these years by the Flushing & North Side under lease, was foreclosed by the bondholders in September 1880, and Thomas Messenger...was appointed receiver for the road, taking possession as of December 1." "When Austin Corbin took possession of the North Side road, he found himself in the peculiar position of operating trains not only from Long Island City to Flushing, but also over the North Shore R.R. to Great Neck as well, a section of railroad he neither owned nor leased and with whose receiver he had no operating agreement."

"Three months later the Flushing & North Side R.R. was itself foreclosed and sold at auction December 11, 1880." "Corbin immediately reorganized the old North Side line and re-incorporated it as the Long Island City & Flushing R.R. Co. on March 21, 1881. The new road was then promptly leased in August to the Long Island R.R. for a period of fifty years; this was a necessary move, for the North Side R.R. owned no rolling stock of its own and logically was a natural part of the Long Island R.R. system."

[The Central Extension was abandoned in 1877 or 1878 but not torn up.]

The ICC valuation report doesn't even show the FNS&C, simply showing the following changes to the companies merged in 1874:

• Central Railroad of Long Island: sold to LIRR on October 22, 1879
• Central Railroad Extension: sold to LIRR on February 9, 1882
• Flushing and North Side Railroad: sold to Long Island City and Flushing Railroad on April 1, 1881; sold to LIRR on April 2, 1889
• North Shore Railroad: sold to LIC&F on April 25, 1884
• Whitestone and Westchester Railroad: sold to LIC&F on April 28, 1887

I ask anyone here to help me figure out what is going on: how was a merger made in 1874 completely undone in 1877? Mergers and acquisitions doesn't seem to have an explanation. --NE2 01:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I think I saw the same type of thing happen to the Brooklyn and Canarsie Railroad. --NE2 13:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Books on steam locomotives

Gérard Vuillet,Railway reminiscences of three continents (London 1968) (Blaisy 12:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC))

Train horn

I added a "globalize" tag to this article, on the basis that it only covers North American practice and does not present a worldwide view. There was nothing in the article's title or introduction to state that it deals exclusively with North American practice. The tag was promptly removed by User:MakeChooChooGoNow (who seems to regard this article as 'his own' and guards it jealously) stating that the article "by its very nature... deals exclusively with locomotive air horns as used in North America". A note to that effect was also added to the article. This is not enough to address my concern.

An article with the title "Train horn" (with no indication of geographical scope) must present a worldwide view, or else the article should be moved to e.g. "Train Horns in North America". Otherwise, if somebody did want to write an article about train horns that did give a worldwide view, then what on Earth are they supposed to name it? Say, for example, I was editing an article about a British locomotive, and I created a wikilink to train horn, I would not expect that link to take me to an exclusively North American article, any more than I would expect articles named "cake" or "shoe" (to give two random examples) to be exclusively American in scope. Am I being unreasonable? Signalhead 17:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

You're emphatically not being unreasonable. I just took a look at Train horn and Train whistle and added a note of agreement at Talk:Train horn. --Tkynerd 18:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! ;-) Signalhead 19:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

That may not be "my" article, but I'm determined on making Train horns in North America a more interesting and informative read, despite apparent anti-American sentiment. 8) MakeChooChooGoNow 21:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe this matter is now closed. Signalhead 21:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

S-line documentation

I've taken a stab at documenting that scary thing we call S-rail/S-line over at Template talk:S-line. Comments and questions would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 03:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

What is the difference between streetcars and light rail?

It might be good if more people were involved in Talk:Light rail#What's the difference?. --NE2 05:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Needed-Class category

Recently, after discussion about Category:Needed-Class New York City public transportation articles, the suggestion was made that we should also deprecate Category:Needed-Class rail transport articles and the associated parameters out of {{TrainsWikiProject}} following speedy deletion criterion G8. I have a proposal for a solution that keeps the notes that we've stored on those talk pages that I'd like further input on before I start implementing. Please see User:Slambo/TWP shop. AdThanksVance. Slambo (Speak) 21:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Since I saw no real objections after a month, the proposal has moved forward. The notes that were on the talk pages are now on Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/New article notes. All that's needed now is a weekly or fortnightly (or even monthly) bot as described on the proposal page. I have yet to work on anything with bots for myself, so is there anyone else in the project who can set up such a bot? Slambo (Speak) 13:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

TWP meetup?

So are there any other TWP members who will attend the NMRA national convention this year in Detroit? I'll be there for the week and I've committed to present a clinic on our work here at TWP (I plan to start a page soon in my userspace for the clinic materials and handout). It'd be cool to see other project members there too. Slambo (Speak) 14:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Fettlers

My girlfriend's grandad was a steam train driver and he was telling me about his father who was a fettler. There was no fettler article so I started one but there's not much in it.--Moonlight Mile 06:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Two public domain books about LIRR predecessors

I scanned and OCRed two books whose copyrights have expired:

• The Long Island Rail Road: A Comprehensive History, Part One: South Side R.R. of L.I.
• The Long Island Rail Road: A Comprehensive History, Part Two: The Flushing, North Shore & Central Railroad

If you find any typos, please let me know so I can ensure they are not errors in the original. --NE2 21:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Interested in helping?

What does anyone think about starting a Monorails task force?--MrFish^{Go Fish} 20:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks like someone has already made a start List of monorails. The article on the Walt Disney system is excellent. --ALECTRIC451 21:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I would think that such a task force would also include historical monorail systems such as the Gyro monorail demonstrated in 1907 or the systems built in Wales using steam power in the 1880s (don't remember the name right now) or the Lartigue monorail in France. Regardless, sounds like a good task force subject to me. Slambo (Speak) 21:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's do it. I just made an infobox.--MrFish^{Go Fish} 21:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll update {{TrainsWikiProject}} later tonight. Would you like to start the task force page? Found the name of that system I was thinking of, but it's Ireland, not Wales... Listowel and Ballybunion Railway. Slambo (Speak) 21:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll try. In just a little bit I will have to go offline until at least tommorrow.--MrFish^{Go Fish} 21:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

{{TrainsWikiProject}} is now updated. The associated parameter is monorail=yes; it adds pages to Category:Monorail task force articles. I've also updated the project navbox. Slambo (Speak) 12:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Berlin U-Bahn

I'd like to hear people's thoughts about the state of the Berlin U-Bahn articles. At the moment, every one of them contains the template {{BU-BahnStations}}, which contains a wiki-link to every other U-Bahn station. It's large, somewhat clunky, and aesthetically unappealing. It also, in my view, doesn't convey useful information about how that particular station fits in to the rest of the network. My proposal would be to gradually remove this template from articles on individual stations, replacing it with succession boxes linking to next/previous stations and the line itself. Thoughts? Mackensen (talk) 14:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me; the succession boxes should be integrated into the {{s-line}} (doc) format. Slambo (Speak) 15:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

But of course. Mackensen (talk) 16:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, duh! (slaps forehead). I didn't even look at the sig. Slambo (Speak) 16:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Heh, that's okay. I've created most of the backend (stations, lines, colors) and put the first example up at Warschauer Straße. Mackensen (talk) 16:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Mucho better. I'm assuming that we put the old template up for deletion once all the articles are so updated? Slambo (Speak) 16:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It might be worth keeping somewhere. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Probably take a day or three, especially if I get side-tracked by the Berlin S-Bahn. Mackensen (talk) 16:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Current and former locations

I tested another line on Laurelton (LIRR station) and Springfield Junction (Long Island Rail Road) that lists all locations on the line, including former stations and junctions. What do you think? --NE2 15:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Article for deletion

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hon-Atsugi Station --NE2 13:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion closed on 2007-02-21 as keep. Slambo (Speak) 19:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Navigation boxes in Finnish railway station articles

How should we do the "previous - next" navigation boxes in articles about Finnish railway stations? For the VR commuter rail network, it is easy: simply treat Helsinki Central railway station as the heart, and have one box for each route, or group of routes, having the same previous and next station and this one.

But long distance trains pose a huge problem. The long distance railway network in Finland (see List of railway lines in Finland) is much more interconnected and decentralised than the VR commuter rail network. How should we mark each box? With the ultimate endpoints (Helsinki and Kolari in the best case)? This would create a problem when deciding which stations are more important than which. Or should we do it like the Finnish Wikipedia appears to do, by only marking one individual, nonambiguous piece of track at a time? For example, the track from Helsinki to Riihimäki is a straight line with no forks. From Riihimäki it then forks to Tampere and other directions. And how to decide which way the routes go? Automatically treating central stations in large cities as starting points and minor stations in surrounding municipalities as ending points can lead to collisions between two major cities, such as between Helsinki and Turku. Should we decide "it begins in the south" or "it begins in Helsinki"? JIP | Talk 19:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• Well, the first thing is that you'll want to use the Template:S-rail/Template:S-line system in the implementation. Generally speaking, I find it best to organize on the principle that west corresponds to left, and east to right, and then go from there. Mackensen (talk) 19:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
• I've converted two boxes on Helsinki Central to give you an idea of what's possible and what this looks like. Mackensen (talk) 19:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks. I think I still take issue with the directions, though. I think I'm going to sketch a directional map between the Finnish cities, mainly using population as a rough ordering guide. So this means Helsinki first, Tampere second, Turku third, Oulu fourth, Kuopio fifth, and so on, all the way down to Kolari. And I have to include the Helsinki - Saint Petersburg railroad too. I've even travelled on it once, it's the only time I've been to Saint Petersburg. JIP | Talk 20:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure that I understand you. What does the population have to do with the direction of the template? Mackensen (talk) 20:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
      • I just think it feels more "right" to use a more populous city as the starting point. If you look at fi:Helsingin rautatieasema, the Finnish Wikipedia is already using Helsinki as a starting point. But I disagree with their use of Vantaankoski together with the long distance lines. The Helsinki-Vantaankoski line is the same as the VR commuter line M, and having it in two places simultaneously only confuses the user. JIP | Talk 20:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Okay, I've got you now. Most succession boxes here just work off cardinal directions, regardless of which city is the most populous. If there were trains heading due east out of Helsinki then we'd show a right-hand succession. Mackensen (talk) 20:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I have made a design of what I intended at User:JIP/Railway lines in Finland. I have edited all Wikipedia articles about Finnish railway stations to conform to this idea. It's too bad the English Wikipedia has so few articles about Finnish railway stations outside the Helsinki Metropolitan Area: only Turku, Tampere and Oulu. I would write articles about other railway stations myself, but of the remaining stations, the only ones I have ever visited are Vaasa, Rovaniemi and Iisalmi, and each of those only very briefly: to transfer to another form of transport or to meet a friend.

I think the VR commuter rail navigation boxes could also be transferred into this format. Is the colour in the separator bars configurable? VR commuter rail uses green for lines travelling west towards Turku, yellow for the single line (M) to Vantaankoski, blue for lines travelling north towards Tampere, and red for the single line (Z) to Lahti. But red would get mixed up with the current colour. JIP | Talk 19:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Peer review for Miami Amtrak Station infobox

Okay, I've been working on a new infobox for the Tri-Rail and Metrorail transfer station;

Miami, Florida
File:MiamiTransferPlatform.jpg
General information
Location	8303 Northwest 37th Avenue, 2567 East 11th Avenue, 1125 East 25 Street
Line(s)	Silver Meteor   Silver Star
Connections	Tri-Rail commuter service , Miami-Dade Metrorail
Other information
Station code	MIA

The problem is, I don't want to lose the description that's already in the existing thumb photo.

File:MiamiTransferPlatform.jpg

Northbound Tri-Rail train approaches, elevated Metrorail line in the background.

So how do I add a description of the photo in the infobox? ---- DanTD 16:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Can't help you on that one, although i too would like to know. Only thing i would say is that does the whole "s lines" template thingy work if you put it in an infobox. Our infobox's this side of the pond have some other data to populate them, might be worth a look eg Euston railway station Pickle 16:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, there's image_caption to describe the image. The s-line information can be included in the services parameter (see the documentation on Infobox Station for information) (see below). Mackensen (talk) 16:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Miami, Florida
File:MiamiTransferPlatform.jpg Northbound Tri-Rail train approaches, elevated Metrorail line in the background.
General information
Location	8303 Northwest 37th Avenue, 2567 East 11th Avenue, 1125 East 25 Street
Line(s)	Silver Meteor   Silver Star
Connections	Tri-Rail commuter service , Miami-Dade Metrorail
Other information
Station code	MIA
Services
{{s-rail|title=MDM}} {{s-line|system=MDM|line=Main|previous=Hialeah|next=Northside|type=Palmetto|type2=Dadeland South}} {{s-rail|title=Amtrak}} {{s-line|system=Amtrak|line=Silver Star|previous=|next=Hollywood|rows1=2|rows2=2}} {{s-line|system=Amtrak|line=Silver Meteor|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}} {{s-rail|title=SFRTA}} {{s-line|system=SFRTA|line=Tri|previous=Hialeah Market|next=Opa-locka}}

Should railroads be tagged by WikiProject Business and Economics?

I've noticed a bot adding tags to pages like Talk:Pennsylvania, Ohio and Detroit Railroad, where the articles are tagged with template:US-company-stub. Should the stub template be changed to template:US-rail-stub and the Business and Economics tag removed? --NE2 06:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

IMHO that bot is tagging a lot of odd stuff. I've had some problems with WP:Motorcycling articles that are extremely marginal and some not all relevant to "Business and Economics". IMHO we're TWP a subset of transport. Its only if it was a particular company (eg ROSCO, etc), like your example. Pickle 19:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The bot is tagging things that are related to economics ... this is a railway page!! Just delete the tag ... I HATE ROBOTS ... why can't people do an honest days work instead. ALECTRIC451 01:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

More about Finnish railways navigation boxes

I'm having problems handling two different types of traffic on the same route between the same cities on Finnish railways.

The Finnish railways include express trains to cities all over Finland, but also local trains from Helsinki to as far as Pori in the west or Kotka in the east. This creates many problems.

The most important one is how to handle traffic between Helsinki and Tampere. The express, Intercity and Pendolino trains, which most Finns associate with Helsinki-Tampere traffic, only stop at Pasila, Tikkurila, Riihimäki, Hämeenlinna and Toijala between the cities' central railway stations. However, local trains (shown as "H" in VR timetables) stop at lots of more stations along the way.

The line from Helsinki to Lahti is also a problem. Express, Intercity and Pendolino trains go directly from Tikkurila to Lahti. They switch eastwards at Kerava (although they don't stop there), avoiding Riihimäki entirely. However, local trains use the old route, going via Riihimäki, and stopping at many stations along the way.

There is also a local train line from Tampere to Pori, and from Lahti to Kouvola and from there to Kotka, but these are minor problems, because there are very few stations along the way, so it makes no real problem if we also include stations that are sometimes skipped.

The main question is: Is it possible to use the S-line template to show more than one previous and next station on the same railway line? Something like this:

Previous station	Line	Next station
Tikkurila	Helsinki-Tampere	Hämeenlinna
Hyvinkää		Ryttylä

The first version of the line would be for express (P), Intercity (IC and IC²) and Pendolino (S) trains, while the second would be for local (H) trains. Or should the local trains be handled as a separate route? Or ignored altogether? But if they are ignored, the stations used only for local train traffic won't get any incoming links. JIP | Talk 09:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, you'll want to use {{s-jnct}}:

{{s-start}}
{{s-rail|title=VR}}
{{s-jnct|system=VR|line=Helsinki-Tampere|previous=Tikkurila|previous2=Hämeenlinna|next=Hyvinkää|next2=Ryttylä|note=(express)|note2=(express)|note3=(local)|note4=(local)}}
{{end}}

--Mackensen (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. You got the "previous" and "next" bits mixed up - going from Tikkurila to Hyvinkää, or from Hämeenlinna to Ryttylä, would cause an odd U-turn. But no matter, I fixed that when I applied the template. I do have an additional problem, though. I put this into Kerava railway station:

{{s-start}}
{{s-rail|title=VR}}
{{s-line|system=VR|line=Helsinki-Tampere|previous=Tikkurila|next=Järvenpää|note1=(local)|note2=(local)|rows1=2|rows2=2}}
{{s-line|system=VR|line=Helsinki-Lahti|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}}
{{end}}

Why isn't it showing "(local)" at the "Previous station" box? Although all trains between Helsinki and Tampere, or between Helsinki and Lahti, stop at Tikkurila, only local trains stop at Kerava. Therefore it should say "(local)" at both sides of the template. Am I using the template somehow wrong? JIP | Talk 19:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Wigwag (railroad) FAR

I've decided to list Wigwag (railroad) for featured article review as I feel it has several shortcomings. I've given my full reasoning at the FAR subpage - Wikipedia:Featured article review/Wigwag (railroad). Please consider leaving your comments and helping to improve the article back to featured article standard. Thanks, →Ollie (talk • contribs) 13:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Finnish railway stations

Come on, am I the only person here on the English Wikipedia with an interest towards the Finnish railway network? I plan on having an article on every Finnish railway station serving personnel traffic. The Finnish Wikipedia seems to plan on having an article on every Finnish railway station, even if they only serve cargo traffic, but I don't think that's necessary. Surely someone could help me? JIP | Talk 18:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I've made a start on translating into English for some of the commuter rail stations in Helsinki armed with my (admittedly rather dodgy) knowledge of Finnish, I'll try to do some more and move onto the VR network when I get the time :-) Moleman2000 13:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

S-line template for VR commuter rail?

I've made some good progress using Template:S-line for long-distance railways in Finland. Should it also be used for VR commuter rail in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area? I don't see any semantical reason not to, after all the commuter and long-distance railways only differ by how far, and how often, the trains travel.

The VR commuter rail maintains fourteen lines, divided into four groups: Six going west towards Karjaa (green), one going northwest towards Vantaankoski (yellow), six going north towards Riihimäki (blue), and one going northeast towards Lahti (red). They all use the Helsinki Central railway station as a common terminus, but the termini in the other direction vary. If I add these to the Helsinki Central railway station article, does it mean it has to have fourteen different lines? The article would get pretty long. Is this a problem?

How should the groups be labelled? VR doesn't have names for the groups as such, only for individual lines. VR only distinguishes them by the terminus at the farthest end. It seems to make sense to use VR's colours - green, yellow, blue and red - for the colours in the infobox. But will this create a problem with the red already used for long-distance railways? VR doesn't have any official colour for long-distance railways, but they seem to be fond of using red as a marker colour.

For travel within Helsinki, the standard colours are blue for buses, green for trams, orange for the Helsinki Metro, light blue for ferries to Suomenlinna, and red for trains.

You can see VR's own chart of commuter lines here: http://www.vr.fi/heo/eng/asemat/asemat.htm JIP | Talk 16:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'll be giving this some thought, but it'll be a bit before I can respond in full. Consider this a notice that you won't be ignored ;) Mackensen (talk) 18:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, here are some thoughts on the subject:

• Boxes are used for commuter elsewhere, so I see no problem doing it here.
• Using the red won't be a problem, but you might want to consider a separate header (s-rail) to break up the flow.
• Fourteen lines will lengthen the article but not unreasonably so. There are certainly some American train stations that have more than a dozen lines.
• The groups don't need to be labeled at all, so we can avoid that problem altogether. Mackensen (talk) 20:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I've now started converting the infoboxes. With fourteen lines, divided into four groups, it is an absolutely huge lot of work. You couldn't even guess how bleeding bored I got typing no less than forty templates: twenty-eight for the termini, and twelve for the lines themselves! But now the hardest part has been done. I've already converted Helsinki Central railway station and Pasila railway station to use the new format. I think this will result in the Finnish railway system being the third best covered on the English Wikipedia, after the USA and UK ones. JIP | Talk 19:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Good luck, i sitting back, watching how this has been implimented en masse for a big system as i think how i might use it for the UK (tempted to start in my patch, Kent) Pickle 23:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been nibbling at a few areas around London and Liverpool (most of Merseyrail and Silverlink). Mackensen (talk) 23:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Anything that i start, i need to get right so i don't upset/rock the boat latter - i don't know if we've really got line (ie TOC) colours agreed, etc, etc and there is going to be some "fun" making it work —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pickle UK (talk • contribs) 00:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

S-line template rendering quirk?

Have a look at this infobox from Pasila railway station:

{{s-start}}
{{s-rail|title=VR commuter rail}}
{{s-line|system=VR-K|line=Y|previous=Helsinki Central|next=Leppävaara|rows1=14}}
{{s-line|system=VR-K|line=S|next=Huopalahti|hide1=yes|rows2=3}}
{{s-line|system=VR-K|line=E|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}}
{{s-line|system=VR-K|line=U|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}}
{{s-line|system=VR-K|line=L|hide1=yes|next=Ilmala|rows2=2}}
{{s-line|system=VR-K|line=A|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}}
{{s-line|system=VR-V|line=M|hide1=yes|next=Ilmala}}
{{s-line|system=VR-R|line=I|hide1=yes|next=Käpylä|rows2=3}}
{{s-line|system=VR-R|line=N|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}}
{{s-line|system=VR-R|line=T|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}}
{{s-line|system=VR-R|line=K|hide1=yes|next=Oulunkylä}}
{{s-line|system=VR-R|line=H|hide1=yes|next=Tikkurila|rows2=2}}
{{s-line|system=VR-R|line=R|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}}
{{s-line|system=VR-L|line=Z|hide1=yes|next=Tikkurila}}
{{s-rail|title=VR}}
{{s-line|system=VR|line=Helsinki-Tampere|previous=Helsinki Central|next=Tikkurila|rows1=3}}
{{s-line|system=VR|line=Helsinki-Turku|next=Espoon keskus|hide1=yes}}
{{s-line|system=VR|line=Helsinki-Lahti|next=Tikkurila|hide1=yes}}
{{end}}

On lines sharing the same previous station, or the same next station, the first line only takes up one row of visual space, but every line after that takes two rows, even though there's no need. Why is that? Is there a stray linefeed in some template that the S-line template uses? JIP | Talk 18:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• I've noticed that before. It only happens when both the left and right cells are suppressed. Mackensen (talk) 19:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Do we include the "Company" where that's part of the common name?

As with using "and" instead of "&", most railroad articles lack the word "Company". Is this because it's a naming convention that we follow, or because it's not normally part of the common name? Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies) says to use the "Company" if it's in the commonly-used name, but one of its examples also includes an "&". --NE2 07:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Since the great majority of railway company articles currently do not include the word "Company" in the name, it seems we have a tacit agreement that we should not. Personally, I don't think we should because "Company" is not generally a part of the common name and if we did include it then we'd have a ton of articles pointing through redirects to railway company articles. Slambo (Speak) 12:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's fine without "Company" if it is common and there is no ambiguity. But I don't think we need to remove "Company" from articles if there already is, neither. --Kusunose 13:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, this is about Central Japan Railway Company. --NE2 13:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Haapamäki railway station

I've been translating this article (currently 75% done) into English per JIP's request and was wondering if some of you could take a look at it for terminology and consistent usage of either American English or British English? I'd greatly appreciate any help you would be willing to offer! Thank you. -Yupik 22:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

MTR FAR

MTR has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. LuciferMorgan 02:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Tampere railway station?

Should the Tampere railway station really be listed as a terminus? As you can see from here, the physical railway network has a main track going between Helsinki and Oulu, and another track going between Pori and Joensuu (via Pieksämäki). However, Tampere is the third largest city in Finland, and the largest inland city in the entire Nordic countries. As a result, there is much more traffic between Helsinki and Tampere than there is from Tampere onwards. Tampere is also the terminus for local trains from the Helsinki metropolitan area - further north, there are only express, InterCity and Pendolino trains. If this were only a small town, I'd just have gone ahead and stretched the line from Helsinki all the way to Oulu, but Tampere is a very major city in Finland, so I think it deserves special treatment. JIP | Talk 18:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• But it is the terminus for some lines, yes? Mackensen (talk) 21:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Surely the fact that some services terminate at the station does not make it a terminus station. this for example is a terminus station [10], does Tampere station fit that image? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 23:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm aware of the difference, I thought he was talking about succession boxes. Where else is it described as a terminus? Mackensen (talk) 12:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
      • No one's said anything about succession boxes. The question was Should the Tampere railway station really be listed as a terminus? the answer seems to be no. What else do you want me to do than read the question? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 14:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Maybe I'm being dense, but the only place where I've seen Tampere described as a Terminus of any kind is in the boxes. Where is it listed as a terminus? Mackensen (talk) 14:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Pedantic most likely. It makes people wonder why the hell Wikipedia is worth it. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
            • Forgive me for trying to understand. In context, there's an important difference between saying that a line terminates at X, and saying that X is a terminus. You can state the first without stating the latter. From the above, it was totally unclear to me which we were talking about, and as it happens I still don't know which we're talking about. I agree from the above that Tampere probably isn't a terminus in the traditional sense, but it is the termini for several railway lines. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 15:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for causing such confusion. The question is only about succession boxes. JIP | Talk 16:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Okay. Here, terminus refers only to the line/service terminating at said station; it doesn't mean that the station itself is a "terminus" of a major railway or some such. Mackensen (talk) 17:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • OK. Only the local trains from Helsinki to Tampere terminate at Tampere, InterCity and Pendolino trains usually from Helsinki, via Tampere, to as far as Oulu or even Rovaniemi. Currently the track they travel on is listed as three separate lines: Helsinki-Tampere, Tampere-Oulu, and Oulu-Rovaniemi, although the same train can travel the entire distance between Helsinki and Rovaniemi (I've been on such a train twice). But I am not very eager to label the entire line "Helsinki-Rovaniemi", because it travels through the third largest city (Tampere) and sixth largest city (Oulu) in Finland, with both of them being connection points with other major tracks. Keeping the line lengths at maximum and the number of terminating points at minimum would cause very many railway stations to be on multiple lines simultaneously, with the lines using very much of the same track, only with different termini. As an extreme example, I wouldn't like to have Helsinki-Rovaniemi and Helsinki-Kolari as two lines on the same track, as the first place where they differ from each other is in Kemi in the Lapland Province. JIP | Talk 17:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Could someone please answer my question? Should stations that aren't actual physical termini, but still represent meeting points between many important tracks, be treated as starting/ending points in the succession boxes? There are very few actual physical termini on the Finnish railway network. Helsinki Central, Port of Turku, Hanko, Port of Kotka, Pori, Vaasa, Kemijärvi and Kolari. All except the last two are on the coast of the Baltic Sea, and the last two are way up north in the Lapland Province. In between there's a huge lot of stations with tracks running throughout them. If I were to make railway lines out of all pairs of starting and ending terminus stations I would end up with a huge load of mostly parallel lines, with the differences only being one or two detours in the middle. The Finnish long-distance railway network doesn't have named or otherwise defined individual lines, it's all defined in terms of the stations. I understand from what I've seen of the USAn station articles that in the USA, individual long-distance lines are named, just like individual local lines on the Helsinki commuter rail are. JIP | Talk 18:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

OK the answer is we fudge it over here. There are many stations where services that run along branch lines terminate on the main line. thus the infobox will have a terminus on the left and possibly the right while at the same time having thru services. We in the UK haven't particularly resolved the fundamental question between services and the names of bits of track, as we have very few "named" trains. Pickle 20:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll continue using the navigation boxes the same way then. JIP | Talk 05:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Amtrak or Shore Line East?

Last week I redirected two Amtrak Station articles into empty Shore Line East station links; New London and Old Saybrook. Should I have done the opposite, and if yes, how can I do it? ---- DanTD 14:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Well, two questions: are they same station (I think they are), and who owns the station? Mackensen (talk) 15:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • 1)Yes. 2)I have no idea. Guess one of us will have to e-mail them. ---- DanTD 15:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Call me stupid but if Amtrack and/or Metor North owns the tracks that CDOT operates on then its Amtrack's or Metro North's station. However why not just call the station "x railway station" (which appears to be convention) Pickle 15:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Railway stations in the US are disambiguated parenthetically by company whether they're metropolitan or intercity. I agree that moving all such articles to X railway station would make a hell of a lot of sense, but we'd need to get lots of people on board before making that kind of change. Mackensen (talk) 15:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry i've created enough work for myself (what with s-rail and WP:TRAIL ) to keep me amused/out of trouble Pickle 15:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Coupling (railway)

Attn: Coupling (railway) has be nominated at WP:GACo. 74.116.113.241 02:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Myrtle Avenue Line (surface)

Would it be possible for people that are familiar with rail articles to comment at Wikipedia talk:Good article candidates#Myrtle Avenue Line (surface)? Thank you. --NE2 08:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Amtrak station article categorization

Category:Amtrak stations has grown to nearly 400 articles. While this means we're developing good coverage it also means that said category is becoming unusable. How would people feel about taking all individual station articles out of the main category and creating a set of state-specific categories (e.g. Category:Amtrak stations in Michigan)? --Mackensen (talk) 20:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

By state seems a logical split to me. Slambo (Speak) 22:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Re-categorization is finished. Many thanks go to Lar (talk · contribs) (and Larbot (talk · contribs)), who did about half of them. Mackensen (talk) 12:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

AfDs

British Rail Class 378

Resolved

This type of ordered London Overground train is up for deletion - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/British Rail Class 378. --Oakshade 21:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is this article up for deletion? This is a new class of train. If you are going to delete this article then why not delete all of the other types of articles on British Rail train types. I have to confess to being somewhat annoyed that no reason is given for the deletion. ALECTRIC451 13:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

ALECTRIC451 you have to repsond at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/British Rail Class 378 Pickle 14:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Pickle, I am glad that you are around to keep me on the straight and narrow, I could so easily let things like this get under my skin.ALECTRIC451 17:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, per Pickle UK, the AfDs are listed here for information purposes because they fall into the sphere of this project. They were not instigated by me. --Oakshade 17:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Oakshade, I give you my apologies for wrongly accusing you of putting them up for deletion. ALECTRIC451 18:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion closed as keep on March 17. Slambo (Speak) 11:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

GWR 7800 Class 7812 Erlestoke Manor

Resolved

This type of British engine that was used throughout the 20th centure is up for AfD. - GWR 7800 Class 7812 Erlestoke Manor. --Oakshade 22:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion closed as keep on March 18. Slambo (Speak) 11:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Slam door trains

Do you think there should be an article on slam-door trains generally? Simply south 15:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

If you believe that there should also be articles on trains with other types of doors, or on the variety of different train door types ... then why not! ALECTRIC451 17:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be more appropriate to integrate this into an article such as Coach (rail). Adambro 19:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

WTT

Is the inclusion of wtts in specific articles prohibited? --Prof Jolly 19:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Give me an example, and I'll share my thoughts. ALECTRIC451 17:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

A discussion of interest to train enthusiasts

Trains are becoming an increasingly important aspect of transportation in my corner of Connecticut where the highways have become too crowded, and I've been trying to add some information to train station articles. Specifically I've been adding links to the Connecticut Rail Commuter Council article I wrote. The council is essentially the official state ombudsman agency for commuters concerned with problems with their trains or with the stations. I originally tried to add links to the commuter council's Web site but was told that was a no-no (violates WP:EL, rules about external links). So I tried to link to the article and my links to the Wikipedia article have been reversed. (I'm willing to have absolutely no external links to the commuter council's web site on individual station pages, I just want to link to the council article.) If you care about trains and, even more, care about the commuters on them, you might want to participate in the discussion, because it's being conducted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam where what they care about is preventing "spam", first, last and always. Noroton 04:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

To give the other side: he's been adding the same text to every Metro-North station in Connecticut, where that text would be better-suited for the main Metro-North Railroad article. --NE2 06:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Another rail transport article collaboration

Coupling (railway) is now the Good Article Collaboration of the week. Please stop by in that article to improve it, especially to add references. Slambo (Speak) 20:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Stavanger Station AfD

Resolved

Article of Noregian rail station in the city of Stavanger up for deletion - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stavanger Station (Note: I did not initiate this AfD. It's listed here for information purposes only.) --Oakshade 18:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion closed as keep on March 25. --Oakshade 22:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Amtrak, SFRTA, and an old Railroad Museum

I just found out that the Deerfield Beach (Tri-Rail station) is the same place as the Old Seaboard Air Line Railway Station, which is also the South Florida Railway Museum . These should be merged somehow. ---- DanTD 00:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Old Atlantic Coast Line Union Depot might be good model. Mackensen (talk) 00:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

We in the UK have all railway stations of each diffrent train compnay (TOC) under one banner, but when they conicide with other transport methods (ir Trams, tube, etc) we just call them "name station" and cover all aspects (rather than xyx railway stion, xyz tube station, etc) Pickle 00:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

After the mishaps with both articles as well as the talk page, upon further discussion I say it's Old Seaboard Air Line Railway Station that should be merged into Deerfield Beach (Tri-Rail station), and the Deerfield Beach station article should be rewritten to reflect the fact that both are the same. ---- DanTD 18:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Peer review for merger and rewrite of Old Seaboard Air Line Railway Station

Well how's this for a merger?

Deerfield Beach
General information
Location	1300 W. Hillsboro Boulevard Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
Line(s)	Amtrak:{{rail color box|system=Amtrak|line=Silver Meteor}}{{rail color box|system=Amtrak|line=Silver Meteor}}SFRTA:{{rail color box|system=SFRTA|line=Tri}}
Other information
Station code	DFB
Passengers
2006	19,997  10.6%

[Infobox commented out to remove from WP:NRHP cleanup category]

The Old Seaboard Air Line Railway Station also known as Deerfield Beach Station is a historic Seaboard Air Line Railroad depot in Deerfield Beach, Broward County, Florida. It is located at 1300 West Hillsboro Boulevard, just east of North Military Trail. The main building was built in the 1920s, but it officially opened to the public as a Tri-Rail commuter station in January 1989. On April 5, 1990, it was added to the U.S. National Register of Historic Places.

Deerfield Beach Station is the northernmost Tri-Rail station in Broward County. Amtrak's Silver Meteor and Silver Star also stops here. In addition, the station serves as the headquarters of the South Florida Railway Museum.

Connecting routes

Broward County Transit does not offer direct bus service to the station; the nearest route #92.

References

• South Florida Railway Museum (Official Website)
• Broward County listings at National Register of Historic Places
• Florida's Office of Cultural and Historical Programs
  • Broward County listings
  • South Florida Railway Museum

External links

• Deerfield Beach, FL – Amtrak
• Deerfield Beach, FL – Station history at Great American Stations (Amtrak)
• South Florida Regional Transportation Authority - Deerfield Beach Station
• Deerfield Beach Amtrak Station (USA Rail Guide - TrainWeb)

{{s-start}} {{s-rail|title=Amtrak}} {{s-line|system=Amtrak|line=Silver Star|previous=Fort Lauderdale|next=Delray Beach|rows1=2|rows2=2}} {{s-line|system=Amtrak|line=Silver Meteor|hide1=yes|hide2=yes}} {{s-rail|title=SFRTA}} {{s-line|system=SFRTA|line=Tri|previous=Pompano Beach|next=Boca Raton}} {{end}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Seaboard Air Line Railway Station}}

Category:Broward County, Florida Category:Museums in Florida Category:Registered Historic Places in Florida Category:Seaboard Air Line Railroad Category:Tri-Rail Category:Amtrak stations in Florida

{{Florida-NRHP-struct-stub}} {{US-depot-stub}}

I also propose renaming it Old Seaboard Air Line Railway Station (Deerfield Beach), in order to distiingush it from other former SAL stations. ---- DanTD 16:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)