Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Theatre

WikiProject Musical Theatre

Main Talk Page

A confusion of Monte Cristos

Hi all. I just knocked off a stub on the Sigmund Romberg, Jean Schwartz, and Harold Atteridge musical Monte Cristo, Jr.. That page had previously been a redirect to the Victorian burlesque Monte Cristo Jr.. All that separates them in terms of name is a comma in the title. The chance for confusion here is pretty high. We probably need to check the in-coming links at both pages to make sure they are going to the correct stage work. Additionally, is this enough disambiguation between the two pages? Thoughts Jack1956 and Ssilvers?4meter4 (talk) 19:55, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I guess the hatnote covers it. I also added something here: Monte Cristo#Film, television and theatre. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:05, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Songwriters on Parade

I would appreciate some input here. All opinions welcome.4meter4 (talk) 03:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Casting Table Formatting

Hello. I have done some formatting to casting tables on numerous musical pages for both Broadway and West End. The way I reformatted it was to add an extra row for the year it premiered. The reasoning behind this was becuase there could be another production that opens in the same year as the previous and those cells could be merged. I also cleaned up the titles on the headings (ex. change "2021 Broadway to just Broadway and place the year below it, or change "Broadway revival" to "First Broadway Revival") Some examples of the work I have done include Hair and Back to The Future. Is this style of formatting ok? I was just trying to make the tables neater and organized. I personally do not see an issue here but if other people do not agree with this style, I will undo the edits. I do apologize for not coming here beforehand. Smitty1999 (talk) 20:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I oppose these changes. They make the already bloated casting tables bigger and longer. Why have 2 rows for a 2021 Broadway production instead of just one? There are not going to be two Broadway productions of a musical in the same year. And why do we need to number the revivals in the headings? Who cares if it's the 6th West End revival or the 7th? If we just say Broadway revival (2020), that is crystal clear. I would appreciate if others would weigh in here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I can compromise on the "number" titles for revivals, but I still think the extra row for the year the production premiered is still necessary. Let's say a production opens in the West End or Broadway and then a subsequent production, say a tour or transfer happen in the same year, then the cells the year is on can be merged so that they are not repetitive. Look at Sweeney Todd for example, the West End Production and the First US National Tour opened in the same year. If we remove the number titles, the table headings might not look as bloated. Smitty1999 (talk) 03:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Cast and awards tables: Persistent accessibility issues

I was encouraged to post here by another editor. Please note that per MOS:DTAB, all data tables must have MOS:TABLECAPTIONS and semantic roles for columns and rows. These are required accessibility features or (among others) the blind to use our site. Please include them in all tables and definitely never remove them when you encounter them. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I cannot disagree more strongly. Adding this redundant extra heading to these already bloated cast tables would not help visually impaired people in the least, because the section heading already alerts them to what is following and acts as this "caption". So they are not "required". If we want to improve the cast tables, I would suggest converting them all to the more concise style used in Carousel, which focuses on notable actors. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Disagree with what? That the blind don't need accessibility? MOS:DTAB is very clear:

Data tables should always include a caption.

What disagreement is there to be had in principle? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Just so everyone knows what, exactly, is being discussed, here is a diff where Koavf added a "caption" that he is advocating, in the musical Illinoise. He is suggesting that similar additional captions (besides the headings *and* table headings that are already there) must also be added to ALL the cast tables that exist in all musical and play articles. It is the second line here, "Overview of casts for Illinoise", but the caption is nonsense/redundant, as the table is NOT an overview, and obviously it's for Illinoise, as that is the subject of the article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Illinoise&diff=prev&oldid=1220439925

-- Ssilvers (talk) 16:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I concur with Ssilvers that the extra row with years is unhelpful clutter. Tim riley talk 17:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It is helpful to the blind and in no sense clutter. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It is required for all tables as per above. You also seem to not know that the table captions while the must be included do not necessarily have to be rendered. See {{sronly}}. Again:

Data tables should always include a caption

This is not optional. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Koavf until you can get consensus from other experts, we will not be implementing this. You are not the ultimate authority here. Experts who have engaged in this discussion have made it clear that this additional caption will clutter to the already bloated tables and will be unhelpful. Smitty1999 (talk) 21:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There is consensus: it's in the MoS. See WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Please show me an "expert" on accessibility in this conversation. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe that Smitty means "experienced editors". I agree that no Wikipedian is an "expert" with respect to content discussion, including Koavf. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:17, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

And how did you discover that I am not an expert on accessibility? Is the past 20 years I have spent here not enough to be "experienced"? Is being an invited expert on the HTML5 Working Group not enough to be familiar with Web best practices? Please see that MOS:DTAB explicitly states that it is a consensus-built document, it explicitly states that all data tables need captions, and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS explicitly states that local groups of editors cannot "override" broader community consensus. Please tell me what I'm missing here. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ssilvers: please see the above. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see that there is no consensus (in fact not a single person agreeing with you) to add the misinformation to the tables that you wish to add throughout Wikipedia's musical theatre entries that have cast tables. They are not "overviews", and they display only certain casts, as already captioned in the table headings. Please stop WP:BLUDGEONing this discussion. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

What “misinformation”? See that the MOS is a product of consensus and local consensus cannot override it. Again, what am I missing? If the problem is the content of the table captions, then make better ones, not delete them. All data tables are required to have captions, correct? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Cast tables issues more generally

See this edit, where someone else questioned the typical cast tables that are in many musical theatre articles. As I suggested above, it would be better to convert them all to the more concise style used in Carousel and The King and I, which focuses on notable actors. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

How is that relevant? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)You made a tangential subheading as I posted my comment. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I can agree with this partially. Classic shows like Carousel or The King and I have had numerous revivals. However, newer shows like The Outsiders or Illinoise don't have as many productions on their cast tables, so that is not necessary for the newer shows but definitely for the classics. Smitty1999 (talk) 12:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Sure, some shows, like revues or unsuccessful regional shows, are unlikely to have numerous major productions, but both The Outsiders and Illinoise have just been nominated for multiple Tony Awards and very well could become ubiquitously popular, and so columns in the cast table are likely to get out of control, like at Moulin Rouge! (musical). -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ssilvers We can implement that if/when tables get too bloated. For Moulin Rouge, I do agree that since so many productions of it have opened in the last few years, then we should condense the tables but not necessarily for new shows. Once they have more than a few different notable productions, then we can condense the tables to what they look like on Carousel or King and I. Cabaret is another one that needs a condensing as it has too many productions. Smitty1999 (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

That is a workable compromise, though it makes more work when we have to, basically, do the table twice. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I can help if you need it. It's the little things we have to do to make them better. Smitty1999 (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. If you have time, please go ahead on those two articles, and any others like them that you see from time to time, and I'll be happy to review if you ping me. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:17, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Certainly! Smitty1999 (talk) 22:20, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ssilvers I made the adjustment to the table on Moulin Rouge! Can you review to see how it looks? Smitty1999 (talk) 22:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Excellent. Please look at my minor edits and edit summaries. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks good. I will start working on the Cabaret table now. Smitty1999 (talk) 03:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the concise tables are better and more user friendly. - SchroCat (talk) 13:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)