Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Franz Kafka/archive1

Resolved comments from Mark Arsten

• Comments: Ok, I've started reading through, a few small comments thus far:
• Check for consistency with the serial comma, particularly when listing works.
  • That's from others editing than me. I use the serial commma, so I'll go work on this now. Let me know if I miss something.PumpkinSky talk 15:59, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• Is his father's business' logo really relevant here? It feels a little extraneous.
  • I think so as it shows the Czech side of his heritage, people will be curious about the name, and it's interesting.PumpkinSky talk 15:59, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Ok, not a problem. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
• Is there a good way around the one sentence paragraph in Education?
  • put it at the end of the preceding para.PumpkinSky talk 17:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• There are a few places I think you could use a pronoun instead of repeating "Kafka". It might be helpful to highlight the occurrences (easy to do in Chrome, not sure which browser you use). For example "In addition, law required a longer course of study, giving Kafka time to take classes in German studies and art history.[22] Kafka also joined a student club" & "At the same time, Kafka was also committed to his literary work and in his later years Kafka's illness often prevented him from working at the insurance bureau".
  • Did those. Let me know of others. Note, some reviewers view this differently ;-) PumpkinSky talk 17:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
    • lol, that's how it always is. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
• "This interest also served as a starting point for his growing relationship with Judaism. It was at about this time that Kafka became a vegetarian." Was there a connection between these two interests?
  • I think it's definitely possible that this exposure to Yiddish culture is connected to the vegetarianism. On p. 74 Brod says that Kafka compared vegetarians to the early because both groups were persecuted and on p. 109 Brod says Kafka encountered a nature healer around this time who promoted natural healing, opposed doctors and medicines, explained the Bible from a vegetarian viewpoint, ie, that Moses led the Israelites through the desert so they could be vegetarians for 40 years (manna is meatless). Kafka had quite an interest in these matters. In Stach, I have not found a mention of vegetarianism and it's not in the index. PumpkinSky talk 17:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Very interesting, thanks. No need to force a connection in the article if you don't feel the sources are clear enough though. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
• I'd consider using a block quote for the large quotation in the first paragraph of Private life.
  • Done. I'd thought of this myself, just hadnt' done it. PumpkinSky talk 17:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• "According to biographer Reiner Stach, Kafka was later engaged a third time to Julie Wohryyzek, but he does not provide any details about the relationship." Who is "he" in this sentence?
  • Stach. All he says, on page 1, is "...and once to Julie Wohryzek, a secretary in Prague." That's his only mention of her in the entire book. I think this third engagement-not-resulting-in-marriage is important, just wish he said more about it.PumpkinSky talk 15:59, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
    • That is important, I find the sentence a little ambiguous though. How about "Kafka was later engaged a third time to Julie Wohryyzek, according to biographer Reiner Stach, who does not provide any details about the relationship."? Mark Arsten (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Done.PumpkinSky talk 22:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Mark Arsten (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• Ok, I read through another chunk, a few more comments:
• "In a 1988 paper published by the Psychiatric Clinic of the University of Munich presented "evidence for the hypothesis that the poet Franz Kafka had suffered from an atypical anorexia nervosa"." This feels a bit jumbled.

• ce'd.PumpkinSky talk 22:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• "All of Kafka's published works, except some letters he wrote in Czech to Milena Jesenská, were written in German. However, his writing attracted little attention during his lifetime." I'm not sure that "however" really works here.

• Ce'd.PumpkinSky talk 22:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Kafka was a prolific writer of the genre Erzählung" Pretty minor, but I would have said "the Erzählung genre", although I may be mistaken.

• swapped words. Gerda thinks it's important ;-) PumpkinSky talk 22:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Brod and publisher Kurt Wolff included "Das Urteil. Eine Geschichte von Franz Kafka." ("The Verdict. A Story by Franz Kafka.") in their literary yearbook" Just checking, but is the use of the period in the title correct?

• Various sources handle this differently: period, no period, colon, slash, etc. PumpkinSky talk 23:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• "In 1961, Malcolm Pasley acquired most of Kafka's original handwritten work for the Oxford Bodleian Library.[138][139] The text for The Trial was later acquired through auction" Repetition of "acquired" here.

• changed second one to "purchased" as auctions aren't free.PumpkinSky talk 23:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• "A court battle began in 2008 between the sisters and the National Library of Israel, which claims they became the property of the nation of Israel when Brod emigrated to Israel in 1939." I'm a bit confused by this, how could it have been the property of the nation of Israel in 1939? Seems like an anachronism.

• Jewish cultural heritage and British Palestine became Israel. I changed "they" to "these works" PumpkinSky talk 23:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, but is it accurate to say "Brod emigrated to Israel in 1939"? (honestly not sure) Mark Arsten (talk) 15:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• changed and wikilinkedPumpkinSky talk 23:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• "According to Elias Canetti, within the novel "Kafka's engagement to Felice is re-imagined as the mysterious and menacing arrest of the hero"" Looking at the source, that seems to be Kakutani's summary of Canetti's views, not a direct quote of Canetti.

• Reworded. Felice, in K's own words, said Das Urteil was "her story". PumpkinSky talk

• It's also dedicated to her, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:27, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Ok, looks good. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Mark Arsten (talk) 14:17, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Crisco 1492

• You shouldn't force image sizes. I, for one, prefer somewhat bigger images, so 150px looks tiny.

  I fixed this ;) default or upright. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 00:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• File:Kafka portrait.jpg - What makes this PD in the US?

This is a crop/derivative of another file on Commons. The photo is from Zeno, which to my understanding is a reliable source and they say it is PD/free of claims. I've copied the Zeno notice from the main photo to this crop.PumpkinSky talk 01:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• File:Kafka's parents c1913.jpg - Was this published in 1913 or just taken around 1913? If the latter, it may not be PD in the US. Caption should be "Kafka's parents, c. 1913" or "Kafka's parents, c. 1913"
  • fixed captions. PumpkinSky talk 23:59, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Have asked GrahamColm, the uploader about this. PumpkinSky talk 00:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

This was deleted for the same reason as the one below.PumpkinSky talk 11:12, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• File:Kafka c1896.jpg - Where's the indication that this was published before 1923? If it's an anonymous work, PD-70 doesn't apply. You need Template:Anonymous-EU for this, not PD-70.
  • It's by someone named Fuchs, I don't know the first name.PumpkinSky talk 23:59, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Do we have a lifespan? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
      • Have asked GrahamColm, the uploader about this. PumpkinSky talk 00:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I have looked into this, and as is often the case with old photographs, it's complicated. Both are in my old copy of The Trial, published in 1968, without a copyright notice. So, according to here [1] they are " In the public domain due to failure to comply with required formalities". But it says under sources that they are "Courtesy of Dr Klaus Wagenbach". Other photographs of Kafka and his family are published in "Kafka: A Very Short Introduction" [2] and the copyright of these other photographs are said to be held by the Archiv Klaus Wagenbach, Berlin. I can't find a lifespan for "Fuchs", who might not have been the actual photographer, but the name of the firm. IMHO, for an FA, I think the status of these two images is currently too vague for inclusion. I suggest we remove them until we are certain.Graham Colm (talk) 08:57, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• I was leaning that way too. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with that. We have to sure of the licensing. I see Graham has already deleted them.PumpkinSky talk 11:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• File:Prague Palace Kinsky PC.jpg is fine
  • Good ;-) PumpkinSky talk 00:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• File:De Kafka Brief an den Vater 001.jpg needs a US PD-tag (PD-no notice should do)
  • added. PumpkinSky talk 23:59, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
• File:Kafka Betrachtung 1912.jpg needs a PD template (both US and EU) for the underlying work and an English description.
  • added PD-1923, and Pd-old-70. PumpkinSky talk 00:26, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• File:Kafka Das Schloss 1926.jpg - What makes this PD in the US? This would have fallen afoul of the URAA in 1996.
  • I was going to delete it from the article but someone beat me to it.PumpkinSky talk 00:41, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
    • I kinda jumped the gun there. Nominated at Commons for further discussion. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• File:Grave of Kafka.JPG needs an information template and English description.
  • Done.PumpkinSky talk 00:26, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• File:Kafka statue Prague.jpg could use a FoP template to make it more explicit.
  • Done PumpkinSky talk 00:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• File:Kafka Museum.JPG - Is this the entrance or a statue by the entrance? This could use a FoP template as the underlying work is not PD.
  • Done. From what I can figure out, it's near the entrance.PumpkinSky talk 00:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:27, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• "characters on a terrifying quest" - Is this a theme or an archetype?
  • more of an archtype. PumpkinSky talk 01:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Right now you have "themes of ... characters on a terrifying quest" in the lede. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
      • For Kafka, I can see that it's a recurring theme. UTOH, I just typed that without realizing it was a pun. I'm sure Freud would make something of that. I'm open to rewording. PumpkinSky talk 01:53, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
        • Perhaps change the opening from "themes like..." to "themes and archetypes like..." — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
          • Done.PumpkinSky talk 11:30, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• (Amerika or Der Verschollene) - What are these for? Not translations
  • those are the English titles, German name first, English in parens, Amerika has the same name in both languages. The Der Verschollene is an alternate name, but from the lead.PumpkinSky talk 01:07, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
    • In that case, Amerika is redundant. Der Verschollene should be noted as an alternate title and not a translation like the titles in parenthesis before it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:12, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
      • Fixed, I think ;-) PumpkinSky talk 01:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• Is the information about Grandpa pertinent to this Kafka?
  • I'd think so as he was the "ritual slaughterer", so it ties more into the Jewish heritage of the family.PumpkinSky talk 01:22, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
• Perhaps use {{lang}} with non-English names? Did one for you.

While the only visible changes to most users is italics, it helps with screen readers, improving accessability, so I will start on this right now. Let me know if I miss somthing.PumpkinSky talk 11:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• composing the annual report on the insurance institute. The reports - Report or reports?
  • One per year, so I'd leave it singular and lower case. PumpkinSky talk 01:22, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
    • This is rather unclear as we don't know how long he was at that office. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:14, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
      • We know he started at the Accident Insurance Bureau in 1908, right around Aug 1st. He seems to have worked there til at least the winter of 1913-14, and possibly longer. By 1915-1917 his illness was affecting his life in a big way. I'm having trouble finding a precise end date of that job. I'll ask Gerda about this as she's better at figuring out this sort of thing than I am. PumpkinSky talk 14:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
        • He certainly did it for more than one year. Perhaps a way to make that clearer? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
          • According to the Chronology at the end of his diaries, he took sick leave in 1917 but returned in 1920. According to Gray, in "Kafka: A collection of critical essays", between 1920 and 1923 he was frequently on sick leave. These sources give no precise dates, but it is possible he never formally resigned from the Assicurazioni Generali. Graham Colm (talk) 15:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
            • Such context would be best worked in, so we have a rough idea how his "bread job" went. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:27, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
            • That's definite, way more than a year. Graham and Crisco---this is why it's so hard to pin down the dates in his later years, he was often sick. Thanks for sorting the details Graham, but you're confusing the Acc. Generalli (where he was fro 1906-1908) with the Worker's Acc. Ins. Bureau, where he started in 1908. Perhaps "...composed the annual reports on the insurance institute for the several years he worked there" ... and then "In his later years his illness often prevented him from working". PumpkinSky talk 15:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
              • Something like that would be useful, yes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
                • How's this edit [3] PumpkinSky talk 15:43, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

That's it for today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:10, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• "was born in 1914 or 1915 and died in Munich just before his seventh birthday in 1921." - By my count, if he turned 7 in 1921 then he was born in 1914.
  • That's because while the two refs match on 1921, they are less precise on the birth year, so I took out the 7th birthday part. PumpkinSky talk 00:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• What is an octavo?
  • type of notebook, wikilinked. PumpkinSky talk 00:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• Then, in July 1923, during a vacation to Graal-Müritz on the Baltic Sea, Kafka met Dora Diamant, a 25-year-old kindergarten teacher from an orthodox Jewish family. - Look at those commas. Perhaps simplify?
  • ce'dPumpkinSky talk 00:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• he enjoyed sharing humor with his friends, but also helped them in difficult situations with good advice. - Kafka enjoyed, or Brod?
  • K, fixed PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• Although Kafka showed little interest in exercise as a child, he later showed interest in games and physical exercise, - Exercise ... exercise
  • fixed PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• "He was unknown during his own lifetime, but did not consider fame important. However, he became famous soon after his death." - This might be better under "death", methinks.
  • moved PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• A couple long quotes at the end of the personality section that could be paraphrased.
  • Have to disagree there, they are separated from the text and will lose impact if paraphrased. PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• Zionism too, per above.
  • Have to disagree there too. PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• "He was aged 40 years and 11 months." - Erm, is this necessary? We have a similar thing in the infobox.
  • Cut PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• (sector 21, row 14, plot 33) - Rather trivial. Good for the information template on the image page, bad for an article that's meant to be an overview.
  • Moved PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• So far the chronology of his major works seems unclear. Is this a stylistic choice, to separate his personal life and writings?
  • Yes, pretty much. Gerda may want to comment on this too. PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

  The article was there before us, for a long time, the reparation was made then. I think a strictly chronological bio would be confusing. Suggestions to perhaps link from life to work and back are welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:37, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

That's it for today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• More from me, sorry this is taking so long.

• "which appeared in 1908 as Betrachtung (Contemplation) in the first issue of the literary journal Hyperion." - As or under the title? How were these published? Eight amidst works by others, or were Kafka's works the only ones in that issue?

• Can't tell from refs I find, just says 8 were in that issue.PumpkinSky talk 21:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps Gerda's sources have something? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• "under the title" fixed. Sources don't say if among others, I would think so. - The fact is mentioned both in Stories and (shorter) in Publishing history, but I think it should stay, for readers who read only one of those. What do you think? Perhaps the details in Publications? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• "published in 1915 in Leipzig" - Do we know which publication?

• Afraid not, refs don't say. PumpkinSky talk 21:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, we know, details in Publishing history, see above, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Several CN tags.

• Did one, Gerda looking up other.PumpkinSky talk 22:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• The line with the citation tag left (He viewed the work as "one of his most successful and perfect literary creations" which he was able to write in a "semi-unconscious state of mind.") is copied from the article on the story, without a source there. If we can't find a source, I suggest to drop the line, it's not adding too much. I could add the German original for the quotations from his diary "a complete opening of body and soul...), if wanted, Brod 1966, p.114. I confess that the summary of the story is so "too short" that nothing would almost be better, also it's like telling who the murderer is, you should read the story without knowing someone will commit suicide in the end, see next question ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• commented what is no more than a bad summary anyway, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• She means 'commmented out', so it's a non issue now.PumpkinSky talk 10:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Why no synopsis of "The Judgment" when you have synopses for several of his other works?

• Where would you like it put?PumpkinSky talk 22:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• The paragraph on the story in #Stories. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• According to Elias Canetti - Why is Canetti pertinent?

• He's a Nobel Prize in Lit winner who was a Kafka specialist. He's mentioned on 11 different pages in Stach's biography. Should I add that in?PumpkinSky talk 22:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Generally yes. Readers should not have to click through to see why someone is relevant to the subject at hand (i.e. when writing about Sukarno, I should note that Fatmawati was his [third] wife). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Arkadia (Arkadia. Ein Jahrbuch für Dichtkunst.) - Don't think we need the full title.

• Fixed. PumpkinSky talk 22:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Disagree. We don't have an article, and Arcadia is highly ambiguous. If no subtitle something like yearbook of poetry, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• If you need the subtitle, then it should not be in parentheses. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Selbstwehr (Self-defense) - For a newspaper I don't think translating the title is necessary.

• Cut.PumpkinSky talk 20:35, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• My impression of the works section so far (especially the novels) is that it's jumping every which way. You mention The Country Doctor in several paragraphs that are out of chronological order. I also note that these titles seem to be overlinked in places. The Metamorphosis, The Judgment, Amerika, A Hunger Artist...

• Fixed overlinks. For the chrono thing, see above comment--search for "Gerda that a chrono". Also, Country Doctor is only mentioned twice in the main body.PumpkinSky talk 22:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Fair enough. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• I try to avoid overlinking, but in a long article we have to expect people jumping to sections, not reading start to finish, therefore one or the other link more doesn't hurt, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Here I go again

• "in their literary yearbook for the art poetry yearbook Arkadia" - Yearbook 2x?

• That happened probably when the German title was translated, I vote for keeping it (see above) for those who appreciate a word like Dichtkunst. Removed the double for now, but think again about the other, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• First paragraph of #Publishing history reads like proseline. Any way to avoid this?
• You have Betrachtung in both the first and second paragraph of this section. It's a little awkward, methinks.

• Tricky, because the first Betrachtung is a print of 8 stories in a newspaper, the second a book of 18 stories, as I hope is clear enough, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• These are two different publications? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think I get the question. 8 stories in a paper one year, 18 stories in a book a different year, two different publications, same name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, some of Kafka's stuff have a collection named after one story, so it can. Best left as Gerda had it.PumpkinSky talk 23:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• This (Betrachtung) is not the (rather easy) case of a collection named after one part (As Der Landarzt, for example). It's two different sets of stories in different medium under the same name. If that is unclear we need to do something. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Short stories are generally in quotes. See "Indian Camp"

• Yes, Where not? (The term "short story" was not invented yet at Kafka's time, he called most of his shorter works "Erzählung" - literally "narration", the article says "story") --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, I don't see any now. It looked like there were some when I was reading the code. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• When Brod died - When?

• 1968, added, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Only Eva was still alive as of 2012. - Tense issues. "As of" would require the simple present, not the simple past.

• fixed, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Per WP:MOSQUOTE we should not put links in quotes.

• Agree, please point out where, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• "The poet W. H. Auden called Kafka 'the Dante of the twentieth century'", for example. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• What do we do for people who don't now Dante. The other removed, as it was linked before, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• they can click on dante.PumpkinSky talk 23:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• The link is not wanted, that's the point, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Who are James Hawes, Milan Kundera, and the other named individuals?

• I don't think we have to explain people with an article, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• A word or two would be greatly useful for the reader. For Kundera, "the Czech writer" would suffice.

• I don't see the improvement, the name sounds Czech to start with, and what does his nationality help the reader? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• I have to agree with Crisco on this one, though we don't the nationality of others, so I've just said 'writer' PumpkinSky talk 10:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps state explicitly if Bauer was the inspiration for "The Judgment" and these other stories, acting as a muse or whatnot.
  • That is from the German copy of Brod, will ask Gerda. PumpkinSky talk 00:39, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

  I don't think we can say "muse". Him meeting her and imagining to be engaged, certainly played a role - there's an engagement to "Frieda Brandenfeld" - but where and how to word that, in life or works, beyond what's said in the linked story? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:37, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

  Perhaps make the connection more explicit then. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

  I agree with Gerda that a chrono timeline would be even worse. Improvement to this layout welcome though. As for making the connection btwn Bauer and the writings more explicit, I'm not sure which passage you're talking about. Can you be more explicit? PumpkinSky talk 21:01, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

  Right now you have "On 13 August 1912, Kafka met Felice Bauer, a relative of Brod, ... Shortly after this, Kafka wrote the story Das Urteil (The Judgment) in only one night, and worked in a productive period on Der Verschollene (The Man Who Disappeared) and "Die Verwandlung" ("The Metamorphosis")." - This is implying a connection but it is not made explicit to the readers. Perhaps note if a character in "The Judgment" was based on Bauer. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:33, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• Not so much a character but the situration for Das Urteil. Verschollene and Verwandlung came around the same time but weren't inspired by her. Verwandlung was inspired by his family life/situation.PumpkinSky talk 00:16, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• In other words, a bit too complicated for an in-text explanation? How's a footnote? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:06, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• specific remarks include....“breakthrough” work, " chaotic mix of paradoxes, its expressionistic style of narration, and its strange mixture of the wonderful with the everyday", "with a complete opening of body and soul,”, “frightful exertion and pleasure of experiencing how [the story] developed right in front of me.", " According to Kafka biographer Rainer Stach, Kafka’s enthusiastic view of the work, coupled with his detailed description of its creation, demonstrates its immense importance to him: this excitement contrasts markedly with the “despairingly uncertain” opinion he held of his earlier works", "perfect birth covered with dirt and slime", the story is about a man trying to break from his childhood who gets engaged to a girl also with initials FB, but fails in his clever writing is no replacement for personal conviction, all this parallels his letter relationship with Felice, and is another case of Kafka predicting his own future, ie, kafka the writer sees more honestly than Kafka the man, kafka the das urteil's hero are both men who are childlike but devilish, the phonetics of the hero and the fiancee and highly similar to kafka and felice, and the father/son are a lot like Kafka and his dad. I'm open to ideas on how best to deal with this one. PumpkinSky talk 02:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• I think you might be overthinking this one. The discussion of the story itself can (and should) be limited, with some of the less pertinent opinions in the article on the story. My question, if an answer is possible, is if Bauer influenced the story and, if so, how can we note this in the article? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:33, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• No doubt about that. With the refs already in the article, there's support for something that says Das Urteil's protagonist, Georg Bendemann, and his fiancee, Frieda Brandenfeld, are analogous/an allegory for Franz and Felice. PumpkinSky talk 02:42, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Something of that nature would be highly helpful for readers. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:10, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Tried names (in Stories), at the same time changed summary of story from just mentioning the end. Should we mention that Kafka thought of "starke Ejakulation" (strong ejaculation) writing the last line, ending on "Verkehr" (traffic - intercourse). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps just "and dedicated it to Felice Bauer. Brod noted that the main characters may be allusions to Kafka and Bauer"

Leave the reasoning for the short story article per WP:UNDUE. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Let me understand: that was only added because you asked, no? What exactly do you want then? "Muse" would certainly be wrong for that birth story. Mentioning that Kafka invented a man happily engaged (just after he met her) seems relevant to me. Please summarize the name/initials allusions, my English isn't up to it. (I will move the details to the story.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:08, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Leave Brod's reasoning for the other article. It enough to say that Brod suggested the main characters were allegories for Kafka and Bauer. Otherwise the paragraph will just swell up. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Brod's reasoning IS in the story article now. - But what should remain, that is the question, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:31, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• I was getting at something like this. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:51, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• too bad that allegory doesn't fit at all, see above, they just met, but he saw already a happily engaged couple, wishful thinking or what? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:48, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• PK had a good one, analogue. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• You guys have just completely lost me on what is wanted here, so just put it as you like, and let's move on. PumpkinSky talk 23:24, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• I reduced it to what the source says, similarity in names, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Why are the names in quotes? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• You mean Urteil and Verwandlung in quotes? Per MOS short stories get quotes, not italics. Found a place where Urteil is in italics, changed. PumpkinSky talk 00:00, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Character names. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:34, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I tried to distinguish the character names from the real people, open to a better way of doing so, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think that's in the MOS, and it looks tacky. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:57, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• tried differently, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Stong ejaculation is already in the article. PumpkinSky talk 10:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Violent e." (why violent?) is in the article just before Legacy. I would connect nicely to birth and slime ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:37, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Translations should be after the first use and not afterwards.

• As for links: people will not read sequentially. If a reader jumps to publications, he should get English, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Agree with Gerda on this, leave it throughout or once per paragraph, but not once per article.PumpkinSky talk 23:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Stick to either the German name or the English name, don't switch between them (I see Das Schloss and The Castle, for example)

• I like the original, also nothing was translated during Kafka's lifetime, but I have to admit that most English readers will be more familiar with the English titles, as bad as some are, including "The Metamorphosis", which would be a good translation of "Die Metamorphose", but not of "Die Verwandlung", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• For Chrisye and Andjar Asmara, further mentions kept the original after giving a translation on first instance. It should be standardised here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
• See above comment and below comment.PumpkinSky talk 23:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• If you are going "Die Verwandlung" in biography but "The Metamorphosis" in the publication section (for example) your prose lacks internal consistency. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• AH, now I see what you are talking about. Agree. But in cases like "This was published as The Castle" it needs to stay as is. Fixed the ones I found. Let me know if I missed some. PumpkinSky talk 00:09, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Brod's editions are usually called the Definitive Editions. - Editions ... editions. Also, by whom?

• Everyone in the Kafka world.PumpkinSky talk 23:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• And the repetition? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Fixed. Changed the first to "sets".PumpkinSky talk 00:09, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Marxists, for example, have sharply disagreed over how to interpret Kafka's works. - How?

• added with ref. PumpkinSky talk 02:31, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hope to finish this tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:42, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
• Not going to finish today (had a whole bunch of RL stuff dumped on me). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Finishing...

• so it is up to the resourceful translator to provide the reader with the same (or at least equivalent) effect found in the original text. - Resourceful translator? Rather POV, I think.

Agree, cut resourceful.PumpkinSky talk 09:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• The Franz Kafka Museum in Prague is dedicated to Kafka and his work. The museum began as an exhibit in Barcelona in 1999, moved to the Jewish Museum in New York City, and was finally established for the long term in 2005 in Malá Strana (Lesser Town), along the Vltava River (the Moldau), Prague. - Firstly, why link Barcelona and NYC which are major cities? Second, "finally established for the long term" sounds redundant. Perhaps formally inaugurated or something?

• fixed Gerda Arendt (talk)

• "The Franz Kafka Prize is an annual literary award of the Franz Kafka Society and the City of Prague established in 2001 to recognize the artwork's "humanistic character and contribution to cultural, national, language and religious tolerance, its existential, timeless character, its generally human validity, and its ability to hand over a testimony about our times"." - Huge (kafkaesque?) sentence, should be split.

• tried Gerda Arendt (talk)

• "Say what you like, but The Trial is my greatest work, even greater than Citizen Kane", starring Anthony Perkins - Perkins looks like he was acting in Citizen Kane, according to this construct.

• dropped the star, he's not the star in this context Gerda Arendt (talk)

• Oh yeah, per WP:WORDSASWORDS, words when indicating the words themselves should be in italics. I see some in single quotes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:04, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• May I ask where again? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• " The double meaning of 'Verkehr' is given added weight by Kafka's confession to Brod that when he wrote that final line, he was thinking of "a violent ejaculation""

• Fixed.PumpkinSky talk 11:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Other prominent themes include alienation, physical and psychological brutality, characters on a terrifying quest, and mystical transformation. - Theme versus archetype again

• no summary will ever make me happy, it all seems too narrow ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Fixed as the other one wasPumpkinSky talk 01:25, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• a Kafka Project - "a Kafka project" would be general and require a small p. Perhaps "the Kafka project"?

• tried Kafka Project, referred to as "the project" Gerda Arendt (talk)

• Titles still are not standardised (all English with the German original once, or all German with the English translation once)

• if possible point out where, and of course the normal German (English) has to change to English if we talk about English only Gerda Arendt (talk)

• "One such instance is found in the first sentence of "The Metamorphosis".", for example. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• In this case - translation - we are talking about the English, I would think, - should it be linked again? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

That's it from this peanut gallery — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:22, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Translation section: why this limited selection? No mention of many of his other works.

• I added The Penal Colony: Stories and Short Pieces, hoping someone will find the best source, or can we just use the book itself? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
• I added tentatively Dearest Father. Stories and Other Writings, mentioned without the title, and better than nothing, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

added: Parables and Paradoxes, biligual, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:48, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• None of these additions are sourced. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:57, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• I trust that PumpkinSky will know if listed sources already in the article cover them, I don't want to "disturb" the referencing, - these are published books, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:10, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• The biographies should have a decent bibliography, right? WorldCat might also be doable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:12, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Which biographies? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• The ones you have cited already should have a (decent) list of Kafka's works which have been released. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:59, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'll do what I can on this with searching and the Stach bio, which is very well documented. PumpkinSky talk 11:54, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• The exhibit itself is known as "The City of K. Franz Kafka and Prague". - According to whom? Also, didn't you just say this was a museum?

• dropped "itself" - the collection started as an exhibit, as said above, which was housed in this museum. Should we say"is titled" (I guess it's the translation)? Gerda Arendt (talk)

• Is title is good, or was if the exhibition as a single whole no longer exists. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:57, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• The Czech (permanent) title is "Město K. Franz Kafka a Praha", I guess the other is a translation? My attempt would be: "City K. Franz Kafka and Prague", OR ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• The exhibit is housed in the museum, a part of a whole, they aren't the same thing. I really don't see the issue here, this all seems ok to me. PumpkinSky talk 01:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps clarify in text: the exhibit continues as part of the (name of museum), or something. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:59, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• AH, now I see "museum began as an exhibit" is the confusing part. Tweaked. PumpkinSky talk 11:21, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
• Tried to word what I understood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• In 1983 the asteroid 3412 Kafka was named after the author. - Prize to asteroid????

• Both things commemorate him. And I have no idea why it's now a separate paragraph. Para should be merged or moved to see also.PumpkinSky talk 01:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Agree. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:59, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Since this minor issue of the asteroid keeps coming up, I've moved it to "See also" PumpkinSky talk 11:21, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• I won't move it back, but think it's of enough significance to be mentioned in the body, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• editor Al Silverman - Editor of the newspaper?

• Editor of the book that is used as the ref, currently ref 200 PumpkinSky talk 01:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps note who he is in-text? Most readers won't click the footnote. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:09, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Already did that. PumpkinSky talk 11:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• He wrote in an aloof manner ... - Kafka, or Michel-André Bossy? Who is Bossy, anyways?
• Perhaps make it more explicit that the last paragraph there is Bossy's opinion.

• He is Kafka--fixed, Bossy is author of "Artists, Writers, and Musicians: An Encyclopedia of People Who Changed the World". How to word that?PumpkinSky talk 01:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Should be clarified a bit (i.e. he --> Kafka). Perhaps note who Bossy is in-text? Most readers won't click the footnote. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:09, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Already fixed the "he" bit, added "author" to Bossy.PumpkinSky talk 11:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you for diligence, I like peanuts, - did my part, the German position, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 12 October 2012 (UTC)