Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Brockway Mountain Drive/archive1

Dough4872

• Comments - I have two concerns with the article before I can support it for FA:

1. Can some more detail be provided as to what the Milwaukee Journal and New York Times said about the road?
2. Is there any history that has happened along the road since the 1930s? Dough4872 02:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

To reply, I added two direct quotes from those papers. I had initially refrained from doing so to prevent that section from being a quote farm, but in looking at music articles' critical reception sections, I see that they use extensive quotations. As for post 1930s history, the road is in the same general condition that it was after paving was completed. The routing hasn't changed, and except for routine maintenance and repairs, it's untouched. Imzadi 1979 → 02:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Jimfbleak

• 8.883-mile (14.296 km) — is the length really accurate to 1 m with all those bends?
  • Yes, MDOT's data is accurate to the thousandth of a mile. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
• Turnouts — I assumed this meant a viewpoint, but the disamb says its a passing place on a single track road. Can we have a link or gloss to clarify?
  • Word substituted. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
• access the road from M-26 on either end near Eagle Harbor — I would think "at" or "from" rather than "on"
  • Six of one, half dozen of the other in American English, but in my part of the country, "on" would be more common. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
• Freighters occasionally can be seen traversing Lake Superior and on clear days, Isle Royale — comma misplaced?
  • Shifted that pesky comma. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
• This road is one of highest scenic roadways — missing "the"?
  • Argh, that sentence has been rewritten about six ways from Sunday, and it still comes out less than idea. </rant> Ok, the missing "the" put back in and told to stay put this time. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
• The Keweenaw County Road Commission does not plow the road — I had a double take on this until I realised you mean snowploughs. Can this be made explicit?
  • Shifted the "during the winter", to make the seasonality of the comment explicit and up front. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
• trillium and orchids. — links?
  • I linked to trillium and orchids, but since I'm not a botanist, if you have better link target suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
• In the refs, US states are variously spelt out, abbreviated or omitted altogether (Minneapolis). Can all be written in full, for consistency and because non-Americans don't necessarily know the abbreviations?
  • Ok, here's the deal;. The AP Stylebook lists Minneapolis and New York as cities that don't need their states, which is why they lack them. Only one case is spelled out in full "Copper Harbor, Michigan", which in this case isn't a location, but rather the publisher. (Copper Harbor is an unincorporated community, so I can't use a more formal construction of "City of X" or "Village of Y" because it it not a city nor a village.) As for the abbreviations vs. not, I'd prefer to stick to keeping state names abbreviated, especially when all but one are in Michigan, and by having an intentional inconsistency, it helps to reinforce the publisher vs. location distinction. Imzadi 1979 → 11:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not totally convinced, since it's a US style guide, not intended to help foreign readers. NY's state is obvious, but I'm not sure that Minneapolis's is. Similarly, I don't know all the US state abbreviations, especially as they all seem to start with "M". However, other issues are resolved, so I'll leave that for others to ponder and change to support above. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:41, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Two Hearted River

• "Immediately south of the road is Upson Creek running parallel to the cliff face, draining Lake Upson" – Something seems weird about "is Upson Creed running"; how about "Immediately south of the road, Upson Creek runs parallel to the cliff face [and/as it] drains Lake Upson"?
• "Upon reaching the top of the mountain, drivers are greeted..." – just drivers? What about cyclists or walkers? ;) Maybe "Upon reaching the top of the mountain, a full panoramic view allows for views of..."? Or just "At the top of the mountain..."
• "Founded in 1933, the Skytop Inn provides..." For free??! I think "offers" is a more precise word here.
• "Along the drive, several viewpoints provide the opportunity for sightseers to exit the car..." Maybe just "...provide the opportunity to pull off..." (I'm thinking as a cyclist again.)
• "The peak is also known as an excellent star-gazing location because there is no electricity to interrupt the darkness." Electricity itself needn't interrupt darkness. How about "...there are no light sources..."?
• "The surrounding mountainsides are privately owned, mostly by Champion International Paper which receives..." I could be wrong about this, but I think in American English "which" has to follow a comma. --> "Most of the surrounding mountainsides are privately owned by CIP, which receives..."
• "The" is part of the name of The New York Times.
• "It was also named 'most beautiful bike ride in the United States'..." That's not the name of a proper award or anything, so I think a "the" after "named" is warranted.
• The History section seems out of place. Shouldn't it be first, or maybe immediately follow the Route description section?
• That the route/mountain is a foliage destination is probably worth mentioning the the Scenic opportunities section. (The usual date of peak color would be good to know, too. Probably one of the earliest peaks in the country.) Kind of tough to separate that section and the Awards and recognition section, really...

I have incorporated your suggestions. Please let me know if you have any more. Imzadi 1979 → 07:30, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• You didn't act upon my second suggestion – I could be convinced that it's fine as is, but please make a case for it.
• Why draw attention, in a see also section, to two other scenic drives in MI when there's a category for that at the bottom? I don't see how those two are more closely related to BMD than other scenic drives. I do see that those two are the only developed drive-specific pages in the category...is that the reason? Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 14:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• The primary traffic types on BMD are cars and maybe some motorcycles. It's a personal anecdote, and not citable on its own, but I've never seen bicycles or pedestrians on the road in all of my trips there. You'd have to demonstrate to me that the overwhelming majority of the traffic is non motorized for me to de-emphasize vehicular traffic. All of the sources, save one, refer to this roadway in the context of cars, not bikes or walkers/hikers.
• Pierce Stocking Scenic Drive is very similar to BMD in several aspects, although it is not as elevated and it runs in a circle. The "see also" section previously listed the article on the Michigan Highway System, but that's been recently re-titled to Michigan State Trunkline Highway System, it's going through a revision to clarify the emphasis on state-maintained roadways while that article is at ACR. That system which doesn't include this roadway, so I substituted similar roads that aren't directly mentioned in the text there. Imzadi 1979 → 18:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Surely motor vehicles make up the majority of traffic on BMD, but I don't believe that justifies the exclusionary word choice, especially when all that's necessary to avoid it is changing two words ("drivers are" -> "one is").
• What are those several aspects in which PSSD and RRSD are similar to BMD? Do they go beyond the similarities that would warrant inclusion in Scenic highways of Michigan? By your criteria, could all the roads in that category be added to the see also section?
• One thing I just noticed the article doesn't mention: how many lanes does BMD have? Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 19:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• I disagree; the current wording is fine. It might not be how you would word it, but it it is not inaccurate nor misleading.
• PSSD and BMD both overlook a Great Lake from an elevated location; RRSB follows the Au Sable River. All three are in rural areas that are recognized in some fashion as part of a national program: BMD is listed in the online description pages for the Copper Country Trail National Scenic Byway, PSSD is part of the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore and the RRSB is a National Scenic Byway and a National Forest Scenic Byway in the Huron National Forest. These three can't be Michigan Heritage Routes like the other entries in that category because they aren't state highways. (The RRSB does follow M-65 in part, but the majority of the byway is a county road.)
• Well, I don't know how to answer that question because I don't have any source as to the width of the road. The pavement lacks a centerline, so I don't think that we can use the various photographs to cite that it is essentially two lanes wide. None of the existing sources mention the width of the road, just the length (and all overstate it compared to the official state source from MDOT). Imzadi 1979 → 13:44, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• I still think the current wording is unnecessarily exclusionary, somewhat unencyclopedic and easily remedied, but I guess we'll agree to disagree on that. If your explanation justifying the inclusion of each of the other drives can be summarized and included as qualifiers in the see also section (as is done in the example), that would be great. And as for the number of lanes: no problem, just wanted to see whether it could be done. Changing to support. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 19:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)