Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/A Crow Looked at Me/archive1

SandyGeorgia

Most of these are nitpicks ... stylistic ... not intended to be sticking points, just for consideration. But some are significant:

Lead

This could be better. This type of article can and should grab the reader immediately. Why is its release date worthy of the second sentence? and released on March 24, 2017, ... can't we just say it is a 2017 album, why are exact dates used in leads ? "Conceived in the aftermath" ... can we be more direct ... he created it in the months following his wife's death from pancreatic cancer ... get the emotions up front, he's not skirting them, why are we?

Excellent point. Ceoil (talk) 20:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• I've attempted to rectify this issue. Feel free to flag up any issues.

  Better but not perfect. We really need to get Anthony Fantano approved as a RS, as his review puts the context far more starkly and clearly than anybody else I've read/heard. Ceoil (talk) 22:59, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Other

• Take care with overuse of also, which is almost always redundant (see writing exercises at User:Tony1).

  Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• It was conceived in the aftermath of the death of Elverum's wife Geneviève Castrée in 2016, and released on March 24, 2017, on his P. W. Elverum & Sun label. ... that was incredibily fast ... to convey that sense, would it be helpful to add "death of Elveurm's wife Geneviève Castrée in July 2016

  Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• A live performance was released as the album (after) in 2018. ... awkward ... A live performance was released as the album entitled (after) in 2018.

  Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• Influenced by the poet Gary Snyder, the songs articulate the depths of Elverum's grieving. ... Snyder was a poet ... the lyrics (rather than the songs) articulate ... ???

  Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• over a six-week period in the room where Castrée died ... hyphen ??

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• with the songs based on written notes that he had compiled about her. ... ditto query on lyrics vs. songs ...

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• was a widespread critical success ... redundant ... a critical success is a critical success.

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• Since its release, the album has become his best-selling and is considered an important work in his career. ... try to use his name once in each paragraph ... Since its release, the album has become one of Elverum's best-selling ... also ... best-selling is not used as an adjective there, unsure it needs a hyphen ... best is the modifier to selling. I could be wrong.

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• but a visit to Haida Gwaii ... I had to click on Haida Gwaii to figure out what it was, much less where it was ... would it be helpful to say ... but a visit to the Canadian island of Haida Gwaii ...

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• The pening track "Real Death" describes ... I do not know this word, pening ... help.

  Fixed. Typo; all the ce may lead to some slipping through the cracks. Oops.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

  Opening! Oh my gosh, here I thought my vocabulary was lacking ;) :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:13, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• Due to significant interest and the venue's small capacity of just 50 people, Elverum asked for limited attendance. ... awkward ... needs re-phrasing.

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 21:05, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• Elverum found the album's positive received as reaffirming but "strange and absurd". ... ?????

  Fixed. Typo; all the ce may lead to some slipping through the cracks. Oops.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• A Crow Looked at Me was on multiple publications' year-end lists of 2014, ... 2014 can't be right ????

  See above.

• In terms of audience reception, Pitchfork and Stereogum's readers' poll both included the album in their top tens. ... needs significant reworking, awkward ... "in term of audience reception" is unnecessary, and not sure grammar is correct on rest of sentence.

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 21:05, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• The album has been described as "career-defining", "historic", and "one of the most remarkable folk albums ever produced". ... too much passive voice for such significant statements, attribution would be good.

  frankly I think these accolades are weak, and miss the point as to why the album is so highly regarded. Can you dig deeper pls. Ceoil (talk) 22:25, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

  To clarify, the article would provide far more insight if the claim "one of the most remarkable folk albums ever produced" was followed by a para starting with the word "because". Ceoil (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• The "Live performances" section has two uses of positive and one of positively ... try to vary the wording.

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 21:18, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• The "Reception" section ... critical acclaim in first sentence, critically acclaimed in second ... vary the wording.

  Fixed.DMT biscuit (talk) 21:18, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

As I read, I checked sporadic sources and found no indications of too-close paraphrasing, copyvio, or source-to-text integrity issues.

Awesome article, a few grammatical issues and errors to clean up, and I think the lead could be made more compelling. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:03, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

All looks good, ipad typing, will confirm my support when bad back lets me get off ice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:14, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

First-time nom spot check

• Palozzo, Michele (March 24, 2017). "Mount Eerie – A Crow Looked at Me :: Le Recensioni di OndaRock". Ondarock (in Italian). Archived from the original on September 4, 2020. Retrieved February 5, 2021. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFPalozzo2017.

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Essentially all of the sources are online, so an Earwig copyvio check is valid; it turns up nothing.
• Does this need to be used? https://books.google.com/books?id=KBYAEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA379&dq=%22A+Crow+Looked+at+Me%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi54ueNoqbvAhVWOs0KHe5jBYkQ6AEwAHoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=%22A%20Crow%20Looked%20at%20Me%22&f=false

  DMT biscuit did you see the source above? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  DMT biscuit this is still outstanding, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Oops. No, the source is not needed it pertains to his brief marriage to Michelle Williams, not the album that is mentioned in passing. DMT biscuit (talk) 18:45, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Checking Franklin: https://books.google.com/books?id=NS2cDwAAQBAJ&q=a+crow+looked+at+me+mount+eerie+phil+elverum&pg=PT114
  • Article: Gilles Demolder of the black metal band Oathbreaker has expressed admiration for the album, looking to it for inspiration and crediting it with helping him see that "acoustic guitar and words can be so much heavier than anything I've heard before".[142]
  • Source: close enough ... I guess the "looking to it for inspriration" is because "Oathbreaker were starting to fray at the seams and Demolder was struck by ... " ... but I am not sure that is the same as "expressed admiration for", where does that come from? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

    Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 21:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

     Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• • Franklin is a book. I am unclear on why we are archive.org-linking to a picture of its cover, or using an access-date (books don't need access-dates). Perhaps I am outdated; could @Nikkimaria and Ealdgyth: doublecheck me (see citation below)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
    • Franklin, Dan (2020-03-19). Heavy: How Metal Changes the Way We See the World. Little, Brown and Company. ISBN 978-1-4721-3102-7. Archived from the original on September 3, 2020. Retrieved April 29, 2020.
    • Personally I would not include either access dates or archiving of GBooks links, since they are neither necessary nor helpful - what is being cited is the book itself, GBooks is simply a convenience link. The documentation for {{cite book}} indicates that |accessdate= is not required for linked documents that do not change. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

      DMT biscuit, did you want to remove the google link? It isn't adding anything, and only points at the book cover. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

      Yes. Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 16:36, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

       Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• I can't gain access to this; can you? Can you state whether it needs to be used? https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-40623-3_7#citeas

  DMT biscuit, did you plan to look at this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  No. I had checked it before and found it to be an unnecessary inclusion.

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Checking the following (random) sources, but focusing on those most used:

• ABC writer 2018:

• I don't believe "He felt that the intimate and personal nature of the songs made performance difficult, particularly when in front of people who knew Castrée" is from this source (but I know I saw it in another source).

  I equally recall this appearing in a source but as that is presently unavailable I've removed this section.DMT biscuit (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

  You didn't have to remove the whole sentence; the part before the comma was in that source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  Indeed but I also concluded that it was repetitive. Elverum's struggles had been thoroughly documented thus far. DMT biscuit (talk) 16:36, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:13, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Paraphrasing is well done throughout and the source is accurately represented.
• This passage is cited to several sources, but since it uses direct quotes, each quote should be explicitly cited (for example, the one from ABC writer): He viewed the events as "re-enacting a trauma and charging people money for it" and criticized the sense of voyeurism the audience partook in, although he said that audiences helped him overcome his fear of performing. He admitted that he would probably approach a similar performance by another artist in terms of being "hard to look away from a car accident".[93]

  By explicitly cited do you mean in-text attribution or divorce from the sfn template? DMT biscuit (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

  No ... I mean that one quote comes from one source, the other quote a different one, but the citation is bundled. But quotes should be explicitly cited ... add a citation to the first quote. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:19, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

  Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 21:35, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Marrs 2017:

• Unclear reliability, who is Marrs, and how do they meet WP:SPS? https://lareviewofbooks.org/contributor/cypress-marrs

  Upon scrutiny, I've deemed that they're not a reliable source. Their Twitter profile describes them as a "grad student studying social policy & data analytics". Their credentials include only small-fry journalism. Perhaps worth noting that the interview was held not in the mainspace but the blog space, which also hurts its reliability. I will proceed to remove their inclusion. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:39, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• (article) It was inspired by a dinner at a friend's house. (source) I remember writing it after coming back from dinner at a friend’s house. Those are not quite the same thing (but I also remember seeing this in another source).

Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Garvey 2017

• The lyrics are written in diary form and detail actual events and dates is cited to Stosuy, but it seems like you could add Garvey to that.
• He mentions events outside their family life and—referring to the 2016 United States presidential election—describes the world as "[s]moldering and fascist". ... here, it is not made clear why this included ... he says, "I didn’t want the album to come out and be naive to what was happening in our world."

  He directly invokes the election in both texts and said that he "wanted to acknowledge … fascism." Considering the only instance of that being mentioned appeared there, I included it in that section. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

  I am not disagreeing with you; I thought you could expand the text to explain more (he "didn't want the album to come out and be naive to what was happening in our world"). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  Understood and implemented. DMT biscuit (talk) 16:36, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• production and said that, by the end of the process, he felt he had healed. ... Garvey says, "I felt healed, partially. And I feel more healed now, as time passes. Everything feels less sharp. I burst into tears less frequently." ... some qualifiers needed, not so convinced that he defines his "healing" as a done thing.

  Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 20:32, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• As with others so far, no problems whatsoever with too-close paraphrasing or copyvio.

• Baker 2017

• Accurately represented, not much to add.

Stopping here for now for DMT biscuit review, will do more later, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:00, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I left some notes above re what is done above and not, will continue on next. (An advantage of putting comments on talk is that one can use the "done" template without the problem of template limits that occurs on the main FAC page :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Citation consistency

• Citations should be consistent; only two locations were provided, neither necessary, so I removed them.
• This publisher seems to be The Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing at the University of Pennsylvania: all of this looks odd:

  Kyger, Joanne (October 2003). "Night Palace". writing.upenn.edu. Electronic Poetry Center and the University of Pennsylvania.

Continuing source review

• Britt 2017

  Britt wrote that the song's introspection makes previous dark, brooding moods in Elverum's work seem enjoyable by comparison. ... I am not seeing that in the source; could you point me to the portion? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:09, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  "This self-reflective commentary reflects even the most powerful pictures of wind-hewn, frosted, blackened solitude in the past Microphones/Mount Eerie as products of comparative comfort." DMT biscuit (talk) 17:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  Got it,  Done thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Caramanica 2017a

  Accurately represented, but this could be better paraphrased ... The opening words, "Death is Real", reappear throughout the record ... Not a problem per se, but we can do better. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:56, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  DMT biscuit this is outstanding, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:43, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Powell 2017

  (source) In a recent interview, Elverum called it “barely music.” Given the floss-thin line between his art and experience, you could take it as the album’s intended genre: Barely music.

  (article) Some reviewers echoed Elverum's opinion that its sparse instrumentation barely constituted music.

  It is one reviewer, and I am unconvinced this is a high-quality source based on a) criticism mentioned at Pitchfork (website), and that it is a contributor website. What do we know about the author? I am not too worried about this as long as it is not given undue mention (you have not overused this source), but it is still iffy. Perhaps you can locate better sources for Elverum calling it "barely music". For example, Caramanica comes close with his "Actually, songwriting seems almost too precise a term. Mr. Elverum has always been an impressionistic lyricist, but here, the line is blurred between singing, speaking and raw emotional data dump." and "So intense are these songs that it feels almost impolite to refer to them as art ... " which the article already covers, so we don't need to use a marginal source when the concept is covered. Would much rather see Elverum's own words from a higher quality source. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

  Articles by Now Toronto, Billboard and The Guardian. use the "barely music" quote. Do you think of these as preferable?

  Yes, any one of those would be a better source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:16, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

  Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 18:16, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:44, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Should I remove the instance of Powell (2017) in reception? DMT biscuit (talk) 17:01, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Which specifically? I have three windows open, and hard to keep track ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:16, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Some reviewers echoed Elverum's opinion that its sparse instrumentation barely constituted music.[35] DMT biscuit (talk) 17:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

That is perhaps not needed, as the territory is well covered by the Caramanica, and best to minimize the marginal source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:34, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. DMT biscuit (talk) 18:16, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:27, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Between this source review, the sources I checked at peer review, and the sources I read when doing my FAC review, I am confident there are no close paraphrasing or copyvio issues, and that the article accurately represents the body of sources. DMT biscuit, I am going to be in the car for the rest of the day, but can edit from iPad hotspot; could you track back on this page ... there are one or two things outstanding. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:31, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I just fixed Kyger (2003). I assume that was the only outstanding issue. DMT biscuit (talk) 18:35, 11 March 2021 (UTC)