Wikipedia

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Zaharije Ostojić

< Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history‎ | Assessment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 13:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Zaharije Ostojić edit

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Zaharije Ostojić (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Toolbox

After a long hiatus, another Chetnik leader. This fellow is notable for being Chetnik leader Draža Mihailović's chief of staff for a significant part of WWII, during which he oversaw the Chetnik involvement in the large Axis anti-Partisan offensive Case White alongside Italian troops, and for carrying out massacres of thousands of Muslims. I created this page eight years ago, it passed GAN in 2013 and have recently smartened it up. Not a huge amount available on Ostojić's early life, but his actions in WWII and death at the hands of the Ustaše are detailed and well documented. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:33, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass

Only image complies with fair use requirements. (t · c) buidhe 10:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review
  • Chronicles Press—appears to be part of Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture,[1] edited by Fleming, and/or the Rockford Institute, directed by same. He seems to be mostly known as a rightwing political hack, so I'm not sure if SPS is met.
  • Neither of those indicate he is considered an expert on Balkan history. The book doesn't appear to have footnotes to check the source of information, so overall I wouldn't consider it a reliable source. (t · c) buidhe 01:12, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other English sources look fine.
  • I will AGF on Centar za informacije i publicitet and Hrvatski institut za povijest being RS.
  • The first was a government printing shop, but I have author-linked Radoje Pajović, he was an eminent Montenegrin historian. The Croatian Institute of History is the leading Croatian history institution, I've linked Zdravko Dizdar, one of the authors. Sobolevski is also a well-published academic in Serbo-Croatian and Italian. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:01, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • No source checks done. (t · c) buidhe 10:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by CPA-5 edit

  • As many as 2,000 local Muslims were subsequently killed in the town MOS:EGG here.
  • The reliables sources covering the period consistently refer to "Bosnian Muslims" rather than the more modern "Bosniaks", which is why I have piped it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • village of Gluhi Do in the Crmnica district --> "village of Gluhi Do in the Crmnica District"?
  • he joined the Royal Yugoslav Air Force (Serbo-Croatian Latin: Jugoslovensko kraljevsko ratno vazduhoplovstvo, JKRV) No Cyrillic?
  • Not sure it is necessary, as the main reason for including the sh is the initialisation, and in Cyrillic it is a different initialisation, ЈКРВ. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • After the outbreak of World War II, the government of Regent I don't think everyone knows when exactly the war has started or at least the year and month.
  • the pending attack on the Soviet Union, Adolf Hitler I don't really know but isn't Hitler not that popular in every day life?
  • the Yugoslav government conditionally signed --> "the Yugoslav Government conditionally signed" Many Australian sources use "Goverment" at this case.
  • Ostojić escorted Prince Paul to exile in Greece and Shouldn't it be the Kingdom of Greece's link?
  • Cairo is linked in the body but not in the lead.
  • They flew from Cairo to Malta on 13 September 1941 British Malta or the island?
  • linked Crown Colony of Malta
  • staff as he moved around the Rudnik mountain area during the remaining winter months of 1941–1942 Maybe add "local" here people around the quarter don't know when it starts and it ends. Oh and isn't it "Rudnik Mountain"?
  • In August, he launched a counterattack against Ustaše --> "In August, he launched a counter-attack against Ustaše"?
  • to wage a campaign of terror against the Muslim population living Let's say the majority of the Muslims are Bosniaks but you also have an ethnic group who call themselves Muslims which can be confused.
  • The two terms "Bosnian Muslims" and "Bosniaks" are effectively interchangeable in this context. See my earlier comment about the usage. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Southeast vs south-eastern
  • the Partisans, he then contacted the United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS) US is too common.
  • troops were meant to cross the Sava river into Slavonia --> "troops were meant to cross the Sava River into Slavonia"
  • they reached the Vrbas river, which they began to cross --> "they reached the Vrbas River, which they began to cross"
  • Could you also add at least a year in the image "File:Zaharije_Ostojic1.jpg"?

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for your review, CPA-5, all done I reckon. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Zawed edit

  • If the rank is significant enough to be at the top of the infobox, shouldn't be used before the subject's name to open the lead?
  • The lead seems a bit lengthy given the overall length of the article. Perhaps the first few sentences of the second para could be condensed?
  • SOE is abbreviated in the lead, but actually isn't used in the abbreviated form in the rest of the lead
  • Early life: After his schooling,...}. Suggest "After completing his schooling,..."
  • To Cairo and back: suggest breaking up the large paragraph that forms this section. Maybe at "Following the subsequent ..."
  • To Cairo and back: suggest a bit of context for Draža Mihailović on his first mention
  • Move to Montengro: link for the Sandžak?
  • Operation Weiss: there is no explanation for NDH
  • Operation Weiss: forced a crossing of the Neretva This crossing is mentioned three times in the 4th/5th paragraphs using very similar language. Suggest revising. Eg, the first mention could be something like "as the Partisans approaching Jablanica" (or departing, I'm not sure which way the Neertva is relative to Jablanica)
  • 1943-1944: Partisans, he then contacted the United States Office of Strategic Services... better clarify who "he" is here (presumably Ostojić but in the context it could also be Baćović or Mihailović)
  • 1943-1944: The OSS is abbreviated on first mention but actually is not mentioned again.

Hope this feedback helps. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Zawed. I reckon I might have cleared the confusion up a bit. What do you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me, I have added my support. Zawed (talk) 08:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Vanamonde edit

As always, feel free to revert any copy-edits I might make.

  • "Ostojić was involved in the coup through his close relationship" reads odd to me; I would phrase it "Ostojić had a close relationship [..] and was involved in the coup as a result" or some such. Involvement through a relationship is what sounds strange.
Fixed I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It isn't obvious to me whether the coup plotters were supporting or opposing the Nazis; I can infer it from later content, but making it explicit would be helpful
It is terribly complicated, because the post-coup government was very conflicted about their approach to the Axis, but I've added "putatively anti-Axis". Does that work? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a fellow VVKJ officer" could refer to both men in that sentence.
Fixed with punctuation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in the wake of Operation Uzice" I think a brief summary of what that was (a sentence or less) would aid understanding that paragraph
Added a bit. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why the 2000 muslims were killed?
  • Likewise with the campaign of terror
Re: these two, it is a long story, but basically ethnic cleansing was Chetnik policy to create a Greater Serbia. I'll need to find an appropriate source for this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have added some material, see what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Much clearer, thanks. I wonder if "Greater Serbia" should be in quotes the first time, because it's presumably their interpretation of the concept, not a specific region, that you're referring to? Not a major deal either way.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The plan that Ostojić drew up" what is this a plan for? the last thing we have him doing is asking for a reconsideration of chetnik collaboration.
clarified that after being rebuffed, he went on implementing Mihailović's orders. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In general, it might be helpful to drop in a couple more anchors to the general strategic situation, which is bloody complex; I'm struggling a little to follow the shifts in Ostojic's objectives.
A very good point, it hard to know what to include, as bio articles can become mini-Chetniks articles, but I have expanded somewhat on strategies etc. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Understandable. Yes, it's clearer to me now.
  • "he senior British liaison officer with the Chetniks at the time" color me stupid; the Chetniks are allied with the Italians; what are they doing with a British liaison?
"Complex" doesn't begin to cover it. British SOE teams had been with Mihailović since late 1941, but they had progressively become aware that his subordinates were collaborating with the Italians, the Partisans were doing the lion's share of actual resistance to the occupiers, and in early 1943 the British were really starting to question why they were supporting the Chetniks at all. I've added a bit. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear. I knew the shifting alliances here were complex, but hadn't realize the extent of it. This is clearer,
  • "After the fall of Belgrade on 20 October 1944," fall from whom to whom? also, is a link available?
a combined Red Army and Partisan force. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There seems to be some slight redundancy in the last paragraph re: executions.
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's about it; very readable prose, as always; I think some additions to help an uninformed reader (such as myself) better understand the shifting alliances would be very helpful. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:08, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Vanamonde93! See if I have addressed all your comments sufficiently. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: thanks; two minor additional comments from me, but happy to support in the meantime. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:38, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, both addressed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Parsecboy edit

  • ...introduced him to the Yugoslav Partisan leader Josip Broz Tito then Mihailović. - maybe I'm tired, but my brain is not parsing what you mean by "then Mihailovic". Do you mean he introduced him to Tito and then Mihailovic?
Yes, but it was poorly expressed. Better now? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...brought the Chetnik Supreme staff... - this reads oddly to me as well; I'd think if you're going to capitalize supreme, you should use the full name, since supreme by itself is not a noun
Missing word. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm of two minds about the word "quisling" - I don't want to dull down the prose too much, but I wonder if something more direct would be better for readers.
changed to collaborated. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sometimes it's Operation Weiss, others Case White - I'd pick one and standardize on it
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The box states his date of death as April 1945, but this is not mentioned in the prose
Added the dates of the Battle of Lijevče Field, I also checked the camp website again, and it no longer lists him, so I've removed it as a source, changed infobox to "circa April – May 1945" to reflect that he could have been killed anytime between the end of the battle and the end of the war. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly, it includes Operation Mihailovic in the battles section, but this is mentioned only in passing in the text, with no details on Ostojic's role in it. And the Battle of Višegrad is not mentioned in the article at all.
Rm both. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any useful maps that can be added? I know a bit more about Balkan geography than the average bear (which is admittedly not a high bar) but there are a lot of places I had to check
Working... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have no added three location maps showing important locations mentioned in the text. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Parsecboy (talk) 23:35, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All done, I reckon Parsecboy! What do you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me now - the only minor quibble is that the town names on the maps are pretty tiny. If those could be a little larger that'd be good, but I'm happy to support now. Great work as usual, PM. Parsecboy (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have upscaled them to 75, but weirdly, my screen shows them the same regardless. Hopefully they are better on your screen? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:24, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Eddie891 edit

  • " at the time of the invasion in April." I think "during the invasion" would flow better
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added British and linked Captain (British Army and Royal Marines). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "hey also carried out almost throughout the war" What does 'almost throughout the war' mean here?
"for almost all of the war", changed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "what course of action to take" what was the course of action for?
Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for the pending attack on the" maybe "pending invasion of the", perhaps a piped link to Operation Barbarossa would be apt?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would personally provide a wiktionary link to wikt:putatively, I think that's a little-known word, but no big deal either way
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Prince Peter II of Yugoslavia of age" I think a clarification {{note}} about how Peter was young and Paul had been a regent would be most welcome. Readers may not understand what's happening here
I think it has already established that Paul was regent and Peter was 17. Not sure why this is needed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "those that collaborated with them." Somewhat unclear who 'them' refers to here
Gave an example. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After Mihailović went on the run in early December 1941 in the wake of the successful German counter-insurgency operations Uzice and Mihailovic, and the split with the Partisans, Ostojić maintained a small headquarters consisting mainly of the intelligence staff, which remained close to Mihailović and his small personal staff as he moved around the Rudnik Mountain area during the rest of the winter, ending in February 1942" That's a mouthful. Let's break it up. I'd propose "After the successful German counter-insurgency operations Uzice and Mihailovic, and the split with the Partisans, Mihailović went on the run in early December 1941. Ostojić maintained a small headquarters consisting mainly of the intelligence staff, which remained close to Mihailović and his small personal staff as he moved around the Rudnik Mountain area during the rest of the winter, ending in February 1942." Or something similar
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""systematic effort to exterminate or expel the Muslim and Croat population"" In Serbia or the world? The rest of the article seems to suggest that the efforts were more focused on 'Greater Serbia'
Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "Status Quo" really one of the latin phrases that needs to be italicized? I'd consider that it has entered into English enough to not be...
Fair enough, de-italicised. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

more to come. Standard thing about my comments, they are mostly minor, no big deal if you disagree. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:20, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All done thus far, Eddie891. Thanks for taking a look! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " for the "march on Bosnia" were drawn into closer" Why is this in quotes?
It is a strategic concept rather than just a plain description. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's actually it for the rest of the article. Is there anything worth saying about his legacy or anything really after death? Eddie891 Talk Work 00:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. He hasn't figured in any of the post-communist rehabilitation cases, historical revisionism or anything similar, and the sources only talk about his actions during WWII. Thanks for taking a look at this, Eddie891! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aight, Happy to Support. One of my comments above hasn't been adressed, but it's nothing to hold up support. Eddie891 Talk Work 12:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, missed that one, have responded above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment/Zaharije_Ostojić&oldid=974863877"