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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Maurice Wilder-Neligan

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 11:06, 1 August 2017 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Maurice Wilder-Neligan edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Maurice Wilder-Neligan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Wilder-Neligan, also known variously as "Mad Neligan" and "Wily Wilder", was an English-born soldier who rose from the rank of private on enlistment to command the South Australian-raised 10th Battalion during the latter stages of World War I. He was an eccentric soul, well known for embarrassing his officers and carrying out various "stunts", like handing out copies of British newspapers to his men while they were waiting to attack, but also highly regarded for looking after his soldiers' needs. His tactical skills were impressive, with one of his operations being described as "the best show ever done by a battalion in France". The most highly decorated man to command the 10th Battalion during the war, and wounded several times, he survived the war only to die in New Guinea as a member of the post-war administration of the former German colony, apparently as a result of his war wounds. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:16, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Images

  • PD-1996 generally requires that the images were published, not just created, before 1989/1964/copyright relations, as applicable. Is that the case for all of these? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:10, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • G'day Nikkimaria. Except for the last one, they are all part of the collection of the Australian War Memorial, which is not just a memorial, but also a museum open to the public. Anyone can view any images in the collection since the Memorial was opened in 1941. It was my understanding that this meets the definition of publication used by Commons? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:31, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay. My reading of that would be they were only considered "published" if displayed. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:20, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you saying they would have to be part of a display within the Memorial to meet the publication definition, rather than being available for viewing? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:02, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's my understanding of the requirements for that tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:16, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, were any of these published, or is there some other tag that would apply? When were these digitized? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:48, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, the author of File:AWM P02194.008 Wilder-Neligan at Gallipoli.jpg died in 1922, so I assume that I can use PD-US-unpublished? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:25, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's why I'm wondering about digitization date - was it before or after 2002. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have emailed the AWM to check, but I believe after 2002. I certainly wasn't aware of them digitising files back then. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:39, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two Three things:
    1. Our legal advice is that in Australia, "published" legally means when they were "made available to the public". This includes depositing in an open archive.
    2. Copyright on Commonwealth/State/Territory-owned images expires 50 years from creation. The Australian government asserts that copyright expiration is worldwide. This is the same as an earlier declaration by the UK government. See OTRS Ticket#2017062010010417.
    3. The digitisation effort is ongoing at the War Memorial, but WWI images were digitised and made available online back in 1995.
    Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:54, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Hawkeye7. So what US license do you use for this type of image taken during WWI? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:40, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I would use PD-US-URAA. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:22, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Hawkeye. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Final one Hawkeye7, I'd like to link to the OTRS ticket using the template, but don't have the ID number. Can you provide? Or the url? I'm a novice with OTRS. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:27, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The OTRS is just above. I created a commons template {{PD-AustraliaGov}} but its not working properly. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:58, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed now. We have {{PD-AustraliaGov}} templates on both WP/en and Commons. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Hawkeye! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:43, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I've now added that license to all the images used in the article, and have also noted on each one that in Australia, "published" legally means when they were "made available to the public". This includes depositing in an open archive.

Comments: I hope you don't mind these being piecemeal!

  • "having lowered his age and given Auckland as his place of birth." - is there any indication in sources why he would do so? The age issue is worth mentioning because...
  • "He had first attempted to enlist under his true name and age" - if his age several years later did not initially concern him, I'm curious why he would have changed it the first time.
  • There is a fair bit of mystery about his guy due to the name changes and providing incorrect personal details, and the sources don't say. I imagine that there was a maximum age for the Royal Horse Artillery in peacetime, and at 28 maybe he was too old. The recruiting standards for the AIF in WWI were probably significantly different from the RHA in peacetime.
  • "before leaving his wife and child at their Park Lane home in London " - "leaving" means something fairly specific in Canadian English, similar to "abandoned". If this is not what occurred you might consider rewording this section. I see no further mention of the marriage so it's not clear to me.
  • I think leaving is just meant in its simplest application, rather than with that connotation. The wife is mentioned at the end, it isn't clear what their relationship was like actually, I mean he left them in London, and despite being in that part of the world after the war, returned to Australia. Maybe he was a remittance man or something, but the sources don't say.
  • "Fierce bomb fights " - are these hand grenades, or something else?
  • linked hand grenades
  • "New Britain. Early in January " - suggest para break here.
  • "sailed for Rabaul. Going ashore to rest" - and here.
  • I've split the para once, I think that achieves the aim.

Not much else to say. I found the writing engaging easy to follow, and complete cradle to grave. Maury Markowitz (talk) 20:59, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Maury! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Maury, are you happy with my responses? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, support, appologies for letting this one get away from me. Maury Markowitz (talk) 11:01, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "He was given the regimental number 974" Um, in the Great War, First AIF service numbers were regimental numbers, meaning that they were allocated by each battalion. So there were 60 or more soldiers with service number 974. You need to state what battalion he was in. (This doesn't apply to the Second AIF, which used a better system, whereby everyone was uniquely identified by their service number.) So move this after you identify the 9th Battalion.
  • Good point, done.
  • Why not say what ship he sailed on? (It was the Themistocles).
  • Done.
  • "According to his biographer, A. J. Hill" Link Alec Hill (And in the references down the bottom)
  • Thanks, done.
  • "The new divisional commander, Major General William Glasgow" At this point, we remember that you never did state the the 9th Battalion was part of the 1st Division.
  • Added that in up the top.

Looks good. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Hawkeye7. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments – this is a well written, comprehensive and solid article. I only have a few minor comments:

  • I made a couple of minor formatting and prose tweaks – these are my edits.
Great, thanks.
  • "after which he travelled to Australia." – Worth, I think, noting either the year he arrived in Australia or that he worked in Queensland, just to show that his arrival did not directly coincide with the war.
Added a bit to clarify.
  • "He was enlisted as a private in" –> "He was allotted as a private to" (just to avoid repetition in phrasing)
tweaked the sentence.
  • Delink Egypt as a well-known country
Done.
  • May be worth providing just slightly more context on Wilder-Neligan's time in Egypt (i.e. the battalion was in training) and the Gallipoli invasion.
Added a bit.
  • Regarding his Gallipoli wounding and MiD, is it known how he was wounded or why he was mentioned?
No.
  • "days leading up to the raid. On the night of the raid" – Suggest tweaking to avoid close repetition of "raid"
used "operation"
  • "and "mopping-up" of pockets of resistance"
Done.
  • "He was also away for another week in late January." – Is the reason for his absence known?
Unrecorded.
  • Is the reason for his fourth MiD known?
No, the paperwork is a bit of a shambles.
  • "An example of this was that during the fighting for Lihons" – "this" is not entirely clear in the sentence.
Good point, I've trimmed it.
  • Is it known why he was awarded the Croix de guerre or MiD for the fifth time?
No
  • "He had many eccentric habits" – aside from the newspaper incident, is there another example or two of Wilder-Neligan's eccentricity?
Added one about him chasing his officers off the parade ground on horseback and shouting at them using a megaphone.
  • Is it known whether Wilder-Neligan had much further contact with his wife and daughter after leaving them in London in 1911?
No, the sources don't explain what went on there, he may have been a remittance man or something similar.

Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:52, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've addressed all these, Abraham, B.S., these are my edits, let me know what you think? Thanks for the review, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:55, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All of my comments have been addressed, so I'm happy to support. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:59, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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