Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/John Sherman Cooper

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Promoted --Sp33dyphil ©^hat_ontributions 06:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

John Sherman Cooper

Nominator(s): Acdixon (talk)

I was kinda bummed that the last time I nominated this article for A-class, it failed because only one editor commented, and that was a source review. I took it to GAC, where it passed with little trouble, but since I'm still on my quixotic quest for a Governors of Kentucky featured topic, I can't take it to FAC at the moment, due to the limitation of one nomination at a time per user. So here I am, back at MILHIST A-class, hoping for some more reviews and useful feedback for the day when I finally do get around to making it an FAC.

Cooper earned the Bronze Star Medal while serving under George Patton in World War II. He was also Ambassador to India and East Germany during the Cold War and was one of the rare Republican voices in the U.S. Senate against escalation of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. Hopefully, folks interested in any of these three will provide feedback. Thanks. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

• Comments I'll review this article over the next few days. However, I suspect that the reason for the lack of support last time is that the majority of this lengthy article is about Cooper's non-military career. I'll start off with some comments on the 'Service in World War II' section:
  • Was it unusual for people above the draft age to volunteer?
    • The sources didn't say one way or another, but one of them noted it, which implied to me that it was unusual. I'd say it was unusual for someone in his forties to volunteer regardless. I could drop the bit about the draft age if it raises too many side issues.
      • It wasn't unusual, but it says something about him that he volunteered to serve when he didn't have to. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:21, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Why did Cooper turn down a direct commission as an officer?
    • Unfortunately, the Schulman biography does not elaborate. It is the only one that mentions a commission being offered.
  • The US Army (like most other western armies) uses Roman numerals to designate its corps, so the '15th Corps' is actually the XV Corps (United States)
    • I'll take your word on that. Schulman used the Arabic numerals. Thanks for the link.
  • What unit did Cooper serve with? A corps is a huge formation
    • None of the sources said. What is in the article is all I know.
      • XV Corps left Third Army in August 1944, but Cooper did not. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
  • "Under Patton, Cooper served in France, Luxembourg, and Germany." - what's the relevance of the 'under Patton' here? There were many layers of heirachy between a second lieutenant and the commander of an Army.
    • None, I guess. My limited military knowledge gives me little context. Omitted "Under Patton".
  • "Patton ordered all of his unit, including Cooper, to tour the Buchenwald concentration camp just hours after its liberation." - why the 'including Cooper' here, and did Patton really specifically order this unit to tour the camp as this implies? It seems unlikely that he would have singled out a military police unit for this.
    • Actually, it looks like I misread that. According to Schulman, Patton actually ordered all the people in the city of Weimar to go through the camp after its liberation; Schulman records that Cooper saw the camp during that time.
  • "Following the cessation of hostilities in the war, Cooper oversaw the reorganization of the 239 courts in the German state of Bavaria, replacing all the Nazi officials, for which he was awarded the Bronze Star Medal" - how did a very junior officer serving as a mere courier get such a significant responsibility? (though Cooper was far from being the only junior officer with substantial peacetime experience to gain significant roles in WW2 military governments)
    • I gather that by this time, Cooper had attained the rank of captain, but again, my limited military knowledge means I don't know that this changes your observation much, if at all. In Schulman's biography, Cooper's work with repatriation and personal appeal to Patton on behalf of the spouses and children of repatriated individuals precedes the discussion of his reorganization of the court system, although it is noted that these actions took place at the same time. Perhaps through his personal appeal to Patton, Patton came to trust him and give him such a responsibility. I don't really know. I've rearranged the order in this article to match what is given in Schulman's biography, though.
      • A Captain is still a pretty low rank. However, rank was often ignored during military governments - I've read accounts of privates with pre-war expertise being given key tasks! Nick-D (talk) 10:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • "Cooper brought this to the attention of General Patton, who rescinded the repatriation order in his unit's occupation zone." - did this halt all the repatriations from the 3rd Army's occupation zone? - it's a bit unclear what the scope of this is.
    • Yes. Clarified.
  • When did Cooper depart the US? Presumably it was after he got married in 1944. Nick-D (talk) 07:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm thinking you mean when did he depart for the US. I looked for this and was never able to pin it down.
• I've read through the article, and think that it's in very good shape. I have have the following further comments, however:
  • The article consistently speaks of Cooper in glowing terms. Did he really make no mistakes or took actions that left him on the 'wrong side of history'?
    • I'm sure he made mistakes, but there has been surprisingly little written about him for someone who was so active on the national scene for so long. Honest-to-goodness, about the only negative that was consistently mentioned was that he was frequently absentminded and notoriously tardy for everything. Not sure that bears mentioning here.
      • It might be worth including to add some extra 'colour' to the article. Nick-D (talk) 10:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • "Although Centre was known as one of Kentucky's foremost colleges in academic quality" - is a bit awkwardly worded (it could be something like 'Although Centre was one of Kentucky's foremost colleges" given that academic standards are the most common way of ranking tertiary institutions)
    • Good point. Done.
  • "Of the first 16 opinions he issued during his time on the bench, 15 were upheld by the Kentucky Court of Appeals, Kentucky's court of last resort at the time." - was this unusual?
    • Apparently. At least two sources that I remember mentioned it as a mark of his quality as a judge.
  • "Kennedy chose Cooper to conduct a then-secret mission to Moscow and New Delhi to assess the attitudes of the Soviet government toward the new administration" - how was he to determine this from India?
    • Again, I seem to have mis-read the source. He was assessing Soviet attitudes for the new administration. Attitudes toward what, the source doesn't say, unfortunately. Changed.
  • "Overall, Cooper's report to Kennedy regarding the potential for harmonious relations with the Soviets was extremely pessimistic." - I think that this could be simplified by moving it into the active voice (eg, "Cooper concluded in his report to Kennedy that there was little potential for harmonious relations with the Soviets" or similar)
    • Good suggestion. Done.
  • There are no details on Cooper's period as ambassador to East Germany - can anything be added on this?
    • I looked for something significant, but didn't find anything. If not for the Franklin study on his time in India, I would have had very little on that, either. Apparently, Schulman didn't explore his diplomatic career very thoroughly.
      • It might be worth looking for works on the US-German relationship during the Cold War if you haven't already done so. Nick-D (talk) 10:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • What's a 'RECC'?
    • I wish I knew. I'm sure it's a "Rural Electric Cooperative Something", but I don't know what the "something" is, given that I gather the overall name refers to a power plant.
  • Can more photos of Cooper be added? Given that he spent most of his career in the service of the federal government, I'd expect that there would be quite a few PD photos available. Nick-D (talk) 10:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    • I didn't find as many as I expected. There are a few on Commons from his time in East Germany, but I was hoping to get one of the statue in Somerset for the later life section instead. I searched the State Department and Library of Congress web sites, but didn't turn up anything.

Sorry for this extremely tardy response. I caught a stomach virus last Tuesday that had me out of commission pretty much all of last week. Thanks for your review. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support My comments are now addressed to the extent possible. Nice work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 10:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Support

• A really good article. One very, very minor point below:
• " resumed the practice of law in the Washington, D.C. law firm of Gardner, Morison and Rogers" - second "law" is probably redundant. Hchc2009 (talk) 11:51, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Goodness, yes. Fixed. Thanks for the support. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:08, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Comments

• Image Review: All images have appropriate rationales.
• Source review:
  • Source: Cooper saw the Buchenwald concentration camp within a few hours after its liberation by the Third Army (Patton ordered the enlire populace of nearby Weimar out to look at its horrors. (Schulman, p. 31)
  • Article:Cooper viewed the Buchenwald concentration camp just hours after its liberation when Patton ordered the entire population of the nearby city of Weimar to go through it and observe the conditions.
    • Comment: Needlessly close wording.
      • Attempted to fix. Seems there are only so many ways to say this without it becoming clumsy or inaccurate. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Source:At the same time Cooper single-handedly was reorganizing for the military government the 239 court5 in Bavaria, preventing Nazis from securing important posts and spotting as successors Gennans who were qualified and genuinely non-Nazi.
  • Cooper also oversaw the reorganization of the 239 courts in the German state of Bavaria, replacing all the Nazi officials, for which he was awarded the Bronze Star Medal.
    • Comment: The source does not support the contention that all Nazis were replaced (and with good reason).
      • Fixed. The present wording fixed an earlier issue where it sounded like he was replacing judges with Nazis! Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Article: Cooper was elected without opposition as circuit judge of Kentucky's twenty-eighth judicial district in 1945, despite still being in Germany and not campaigning for the office.
  • Source: Democrats joined with Republicans to sponsor the Army officer... His candidacy was unopposed.
    • Comment: Judges are not elected in Kentucky, but are appointed by the governor on nomination by a bipartisan commission
      • Not sure this is accurate. I know we elect judges to the Kentucky Supreme Court in nonpartisan elections, but that may have been a result of the 1975 constitutional amendment dealing with the judiciary and passed under Governor Julian Carroll. Regardless, this says he was "elected".
  • Article:In 1944, while he was still in the Army, Cooper married Evelyn Pfaff, a registered nurse.
  • Source:In 1943 he had married Evelyn Pfaff, an Army nurse
    • Aside from the date (what gives?) the source does not support being an RN. You could apply to join the Army directly from Nursing school, and so did not have to be an RN. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
      • The source cited immediately above gives the 1944 date; reworded to include both. I may have inadvertently stuck in the "registered nurse" part. Fixed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Support Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.