Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/HMS Pearl (1762)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 08:20, 10 October 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

HMS Pearl (1762) edit

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Ykraps (talk)

Featured article candidates/HMS Pearl (1762)/archive1

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because...Hoping to get to FAC eventually and this is the next logical step. I have expanded the article significantly since it achieved GA in May 2018. There was a peer review in August Wikipedia:Peer_review/HMS_Pearl_(1762)/archive1. The article is about a Royal Navy frigate from the age of sail. She fought in the American and French Revolutionary Wars, although her part in the latter was less interesting, mainly confined to the more mundane frigate duties. Relegated to harbour roles in 1804, she was eventually sold in 1832. Ykraps (talk) 15:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Hog Farm edit

Will get to this over the next few days. Hog Farm _Bacon 19:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

"At the end of the war in 1782, Pearl returned to England" - but the Treaty of Paris wasn't signed until 1783, and the general consensus of RS that I've seen is that the war didn't end until 1783, so the 1782 date is misleading here
Officially the war ended with the ratification of the Treaty of Paris but Britain realised America was lost when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown and had already begun to withdraw. As I can't think of a succinct way to put this, I've removed for now.--Ykraps (talk) 05:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"and was force to put into Sierra Leone" - I'm assuming you mean forced, not force?
Of course. Thanks.--Ykraps (talk) 05:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Give Elphinstone's rank
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 05:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bold Prothee in the lead, as it was a valid alternate name
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 05:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Will get to more of this later. Hog Farm _Bacon 21:00, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Duplinks

There's a bunch of these, according to the duplink finder tool: HMS Roebuck, New York City, fitted-out (piped linked as refitted), cutting out, and the Minerve.
Done, I think. Where do I find the tool to check?

American Revolutionary War

What's Hamond's rank?
Done--Ykraps (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What type of ship was Batchelor?
Not recorded, unfortunately.--Ykraps (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"and on 6 July 1777" - Drop the year, since it's already been established it's in 1777
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
" burned the Continental schooner Mosquito" - Link Continental to Continental Navy
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The American vessel of six guns and four swivels, was moored" - Drop the comma
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
" in the frigate, Delaware, came" - I don't think the commas are necessary
Removed.--Ykraps (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Assault on Philadelphia

What's Howe's rank?
Added.--Ykraps (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"On 22 September, Pearl, Roebuck, Liverpool, HMS Augusta, forced a passage in order to support an attack on Red Bank by British troops - Shouldn't there be an "and" in the list somewhere?
Added.--Ykraps (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Operations in the West Indies

What's Hotham's rank?
Added.--Ykraps (talk) 21:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"escorted by a small squadron comprising two 64-gun and three 50-gun ships of the line, a bomb vessel, and two frigates arrived at Barbados" - I think there should be a comma after frigates, to fully set of the appositive.
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 21:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Pearl encountered the 28-gun Santa Monica off the Azores" - Mention that Santa Monica was a Spanish vessel here, not in the next sentence
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 21:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Pearl took part in an attack on a convoy from Caracas on 8 January 1780[5] comprising 22 ships, including seven Spanish men of war, and the entire convoy was taken." - Maybe it's just me, but to me, Pearl took part in an attack on a Spanish convoy comprising 22 ships, including seven men of war, on 8 January 1780; the entire convoy was taken. With the links and citations in there, of course.
Good suggestion. Done with one minor change.--Ykraps (talk) 21:24, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"A proportion of the captured ships " - I'm not convinced proportion is the correct word here. Portion, or some such word, would be better.
Agreed. Done.--Ykraps (talk) 21:24, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You use both Rear-admiral and Rear-Admiral. Be consistent with the capitalization.
Changed to Rear-Admiral. --Ykraps (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link Long Island
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gonna take a break here. Hog Farm _Bacon 22:01, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mediterranean service and the outbreak of war

"Scocvola,in October" - Missing a space in here
Added.--Ykraps (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
" Both off the coast of Antigua - This is a sentence fragment, combine with the preceeding sentence
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"In January 1800, she took a Spanish brig" - Might want to indicate why the British were fighting Spanish, as at last mention, only the French are at war with the British
Added.--Ykraps (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"and destroyed, a large Genoese polacca of 14 guns" - Drop the comma
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
" two Spanish setees and a Xebec" - I'm not convinced that xebec should be capitalized
Lower-cased.--Ykraps (talk) 20:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"on 31 August 1800 and destroyed a further two" - Already established that we're in 1800, not need to repeat the year
Removed.--Ykraps (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link Nice
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"with the aid of the 18-gun sloop, Lutine, the 8-gun bomb vessel, Strombolo, and the 6-gun tender, Alexander" - I don't think you need the commas between the ship types and the ship names, it just confuses the list
Removed.--Ykraps (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandria

What's Elphinstone's rank?
Added.--Ykraps (talk) 21:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Porto Ferrajo

Give Warren's rank
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 21:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Pearl was in John Borlase Warren's squadron when it was called upon to relieve the British garrison at Porto Ferrajo; under siege since the beginning of May 1801" - Put the when here, instead of the next sentence, to provide the necessary context for "since the beginning of May 1801" without having to read further to understand
Not entirely sure what you are asking here. Can you expand a bit?
@Ykraps: - Directly state when it was called upon to relive the garrison. "since the beginning of May 1801" is highly dependent for significance for when this is happening, and it's better to state it outright here, instead of stating when Pearl got involved in this little scrap a few sentences later. Hog Farm _Bacon 21:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We may be at cross purposes here. The beginning of May was when the siege began. Pearl became involved on 1 August as stated in the next sentence. I could say, "Pearl was in Commodore John Borlase Warren's squadron when, on 1 August, it was called upon to relieve the British garrison at Porto Ferrajo; under siege since the beginning of May 1801". Is that what you are suggesting?--Ykraps (talk) 22:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ykraps: - Yes. Hog Farm _Bacon 22:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Done.--Ykraps (talk) 22:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Italicize Généreux
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 21:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link Elba
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 21:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fate

Link or gloss the meaning of "in ordinary"
Linked.--Ykraps (talk) 21:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And that's my run through the prose. Willing to discuss any of these. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:59, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing. I will get to asap but I'm away at the moment and internet access is sporadic.--Ykraps (talk) 17:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Do you have anything more to add?--Ykraps (talk) 21:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentSupport by PM edit

I don't have much of an idea about age of sail ships, 20th C ships are my forte, but I'll have a crack. I have some comments:

Lead

because the Niger-class included a name ship, it should always be italicised. The best way to do this is to use the sclass- template, ie {{sclass-|Niger|frigate|0}}
Done - I wasn't aware of that template so thanks for that.--Ykraps (talk) 17:16, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
suggest "HMS Pearl was a Royal Navy 32-gun fifth-rate frigate of the Niger-class."
Sort of done - It was all looking a bit WP:sea of blue so I've removed 'fifth-rate' which was probably unnecessary anyway.--Ykraps (talk) 17:16, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link ceremonial ship launching for "Launched"
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 17:16, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link ship commissioning for "recommissioned"
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 17:16, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Body

is there any information available on why she was ordered, her intended role or what ship she replaced? Also, any information about how many ships called Pearl had preceded her, if any?
Not a lot, no. She was built during the Seven Year's War but by the time she was completed, the war was over. There appears to have been three Pearls before her but they weren't related in any way and I can't find a reliable source. I've opted instead to add a bit more about other ships in her class. See here [[1]]--Ykraps (talk) 06:30, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Amalgamate the three paras of the Construction and armament section, each para only contains two sentences
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link keel laying for "laid down"
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
get rid of the 0 inches in the depth of hold figure by removing it from the cvt template
Done - Although in my experience this often leads to confusion. See for example this comment from Euryalus [[2]].--Ykraps (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the piped link should be to Admiralty not the section within that article about the building itself
Done - No idea why it should do that; the Admiralty is both the institution and the building.--Ykraps (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link main battery
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
suggest "to South Carolina, and captured the 16-gun sloop USS Lexington on 20 December."
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
what sort of ship was Batchelor?
Hog Farm asked the same question. I'm afraid I don't know. She is only recorded as a privateer.--Ykraps (talk) 06:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
is "cutting out" a more common term than boarding?
It's a more accurate term. Cutting out is a suprise boarding from boats. Boarding can also refer to a ship to ship boarding, following an engagement. I think it's quite a common term and probably more common when describing a boat action.--Ykraps (talk) 06:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link swivel gun and in full, jargon
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"then Pearl weighed"→"then Pearl weighed anchor" jargon
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link ship grounding
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Ship's tender
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
nmi in full at first mention, unfamiliar to many
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
in general, state what type of ship when mentioning a ship, ie "the sixth-rate frigate HMAS Liverpool"
I'm sure Liverpool was a British ship :) Done (I think).--Ykraps (talk) 06:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
suggest "When American forces were defeated on land at the Battle of Brandywine"
Changed to American land forces, if that's okay.--Ykraps (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
suggest "and Merlin blew up" as we already know she was a sloop
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
drop the comma from "At dawn, on 25 July 1778"
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"American frigate of 26 guns" or "26-gun American frigate" and should Industry be redlinked if it was of that size?
Yes, I initially intended to add a link but there doesn't appear to be enough info on her for an article. Everything I could find has been put in this article. The other problem I had was what to call it. She wasn't a Continental Navy frigate so USS Industry isn't appropriate. American privateer Industry perhaps?--Ykraps (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
American privateer Industry works for me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:02, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Thanks--Ykraps (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"She came up with the chase" jargon
Changed to objective.--Ykraps (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Ship of the line
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 07:11, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
drop the piping for Admiral Samuel Barrington, just link Samuel Barrington
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
explain why they were attacking St Lucia
The short answer is because there was an opportunity to do so. The sugar islands were extremely lucrative; they generated more than 50% of French and 20% of British trade. The French waived their right to claim any part of the American continent in their treaty with the 13 colonies, but retained the right to expand their empire in the West Indies, which they did with the capture of Dominica. Hotham’s arrival gave the Royal Navy superiority in those waters and although the French were too deeply entrenched on Dominica, it was felt that the capture of St Lucia was a possibility. I have made a small addition;[[3]] let me know if you want me to expand on it.--Ykraps (talk) 18:12, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You could get away with mentioning that St Lucia was a French colony. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:30, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes, that would have been simpler. Thanks and added.--Ykraps (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the Spaniard→the Spanish ship
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:14, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Man-of-war
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:14, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
consistency re: ships of the line and ships-of-the-line
Done, I think. All hyphenated.--Ykraps (talk) 06:14, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Conanicut Island and in full
Written in full but already linked in the 'Assualt on Philadelphia' section.--Ykraps (talk) 06:14, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
forced to strike, jargon
Changed to capitulate. I found another occurence of this phrase in the Assualt on Philadelphia section. I have written out in full and linked to its article [[4]] but happy to change if that's insufficient.--Ykraps (talk) 05:58, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
held the lee and leaned away from their opponents, jargon
Changed to downwind.--Ykraps (talk) 15:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Chesapeake Bay
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 15:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
consistency with prefixing HMS when first mentioning a ship, Iris is a glaring example of easter-egging of this type
Done. (I think)--Ykraps (talk) 06:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link privateer
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 15:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
move link to brig to first mention
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 15:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Michael de Courcy
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 15:51, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link broadside
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 15:51, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
suggest "fore-topgallant" as that is the construction in the Collins dictionary, also link Topgallant sail
Done - Didn't check the spelling, just followed the source.--Ykraps (talk) 15:51, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link carronade
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 15:51, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the link for Genoese seems to be Ligurian Republic
Sources refer to these ships as Genoese but the Republic of Genoa was amalgamated with other territories to form the Ligurian Republic in Jan 1797 so the latter is probably the most appropriate link. Is your concern WP:EGG? I could see if the sentence can be rewritten but after days of looking, I still can't find it!--Ykraps (talk) 06:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, I just mean pipe Genoese to Ligurian Republic at first mention. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:02, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That explains why I couldn't find it then. I read both articles when deciding which link was best but clearly forgot to add it. Thanks--Ykraps (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
French setee→French settee
Good catch. Thanks.--Ykraps (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
for Succès link HMS Success (1781)
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"off the west side of the island" what island? Elba?
St Lucia. Clarified now, I think.--Ykraps (talk) 05:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. Completely at cross purposes here. I initially made this edit in response to your query.[[5]] Elba it is. Now corrected.--Ykraps (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link HMS Carrere (1801)
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
struck to her, jargon
Changed to surrendered.--Ykraps (talk) 05:14, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In Note 4, italicise Vertu, and place an apostrophe after Clowes
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
use |author-link for Clowes in the References, same for Benson John Lossing, Alfred Thayer Mahan, Onésime-Joachim Troude and Robert Beatson
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 05:14, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the pages in the citation format should have a space between p. and the page number, per the examples at H:FOOT and WP:CITE
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it. Nice job thus far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:02, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know when you're done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:47, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Thanks for taking time and effort to review this article. Sorry it's taking so long but last week I was away on holiday and this week I'm back at work, struggling to clear the backlog. I think I'm just about done now: There is still the unresolved issues of the frigate Industry (19th question in Body section) and the Ligurian Republic (38th question in Body section). Happy to take your advice on either of these. Regards--Ykraps (talk) 06:51, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK, just a couple of things noted above, and I reckon we're good to go. Great job on this article, BTW. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:45, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Thanks for your edits to the article. I think I've attended to everything else.--Ykraps (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from AustralianRupert edit

G'day, this looks pretty good to my untrained eye. Not a lot stood out to me: AustralianRupert (talk) 09:38, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the infobox mentions that the ship was full rigged, but I wasn't sure if this is mentioned in the body, please check
Added.--Ykraps (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wilkinson died from disease and was replaced by George Elphinstone: the link to Elphinestone here appears to be to someone who died in 1634, so it is probably the wrong link
Well spotted! Untrained eye, indeed.--Ykraps (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
anchored at Bloomingdale, 6 miles (9.7 km) above New York --> north of New York?
It's kinda north-east. Changed to upstream as I have a feeling that the measurement is along the river.--Ykraps (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good solution, thanks. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:14, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
and the London Gazette has Pearl with: add italics for "London Gazette"
Done.--Ykraps (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In March 1825, Pearl was renamed Protheé: do we know why the ship was renamed?
I've not been able to find anything. There was another Pearl being built at around the same time so best guess is the Admiralty wanted the name for their new vessel. No reliable source for this, however.--Ykraps (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, thanks for looking. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:14, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Porto Ferrajo however, remained in British hands until the end of the: suggest adding a comma after "Ferrajo"
Done--Ykraps (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
in the References, some ISBNs are hyphenated and some aren't. I suggest making these consistent
Ah yes, you mentioned that last time but I'd forgotten about it. Done.--Ykraps (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
in the References, suggest adding a translation for the title of the Troude work
Done and added language too.--Ykraps (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
citations # 83 and 84 appear like they might be inconsistent in their presentation compared with others (for instance citations # 1, 2 etc)
Reformatted.--Ykraps (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AustralianRupert: I know how busy you are at the moment so many, many thanks for taking the time to review.--Ykraps (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No worries at all, thanks for your efforts. Added my support above, now. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:14, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass edit

File:HMS Pearl and Santa Monica Azores, 1779.jpg, File:Bataille de Sainte Lucie 1778.jpg, File:Dominic Serres - Captain George Montagu of the 'Pearl', 32 guns, engaging the Spanish frigate 'Santa Monica' off the Azores, 14th. September 1779.jpg, File:HMS Pearl vs Esperance.jpg - old art, copyright expired.
File:British Operations on the Delaware in 1777.png - PD; copyright expired.
File:British troops landing at Kip's Bay 1776.jpg: Looks old. Any idea when this was painted? Where it is?
I'm afraid I can't find anything about this image. There are few occurrences of it on the internet and none indicate the date or artist. A Royal Marines blog suggests the painting is in the National Maritime Museum but it's not on their website. I will keep searching but for now, I think it's best to remove.--Ykraps (talk) 06:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:47, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass edit

All sources are high quality.
Spot checks done on 43, 74, 113 - all okay.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:47, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: Thank you for doing the source and image review. Is there anything else I need to action?--Ykraps (talk) 06:04, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No. All good. I am curious about the London Gazette links. How did you find them? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:13, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Search the Gazette's website here [[6]]. Entering 'Pearl' in the 'search archives' box brings up this list.[[7]] You can refine your search in the pane on the left-hand side; I normally use dates from launch to a few years after breaking. Then it's just a question of trawling through them.--Ykraps (talk) 07:55, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.