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This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.

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Productive editors get special treatment?

• It's been suggested that productive editors get special treatment, and Administrators may turn a blind eye if they are uncivil, edit war, or break other policies. Is there a policy to support this?
• I would argue that this is counter-productive, since one productive editor with poor behavior, does not out outweight all the editors they affect, nor the other editors who might contribute to Wikipedia if things were more civil, and there was less warring? --84.9.191.165 16:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It also, perhaps, gets applied more along the lines of giving better treatment to editors with a lot of powerful friends, rather than necessarily ones actually better for the project in general. *Dan T.* 16:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think productive editors get "special" treatment... but I do think their view points tend to be given more of a hearing by admins when settling disputes. One could make the argument that longtime editors have earned some extra respect due to their productivity. The solution for the relative newbie or unproductive editor is to become a productive editor themselves... by contributing good edits to the project. That said, poor behaviour should never to be condoned, and both long standing productive editors and newbies should always be corrected (politely) when they engage in it. Blueboar 17:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• Like it or not people who take the time to register and use their account names when editing get more respect and have more credibility. --Kevin Murray 20:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Anon vs. non-anon is a whole different matter than productive vs. non-productive, IMO. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Anyone can make a mistake every once in a while. Even a big one, like 3RR violation, that normally earns a block under the rules. When you make that mistake after 3 years of productive contribution rather than 15 minutes after registering though, people are more understanding and less likely to block you or claim you're a vandal. Since blocking is intended to be preventative of future damage rather than a punishment, this is both sensible and in accordance with the spirit of the rules. If you are a productive long-standing member, we have seen your actions and know that you are not trying to harm Wikipedia. As such, it is much harder to justify blocking you preventively vs. warning you that you just did something that would normally earn a block and should make sure not to do it again. --tjstrf talk 20:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• My experience more closely follows *Dan T.*'s suggestion of "giving better treatment to editors with a lot of powerful friends", and that productive editors do seem to get "special" treatment, as illustrated by another editor's comment "he's too productive an editor to deal with more harshly "[1].
• We could all be more productive if we didn't have to follow the rules, and admins turned a blind eye.
• And yes, I also have more respect for people who register with their real names, but that's not justification for some to misbehave against them.
• And yes, people make mistakes. But how many times are they allowed to make the same "mistake". And experienced editors and Admins should know better --84.9.191.165 20:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Asshole anons and asshole established editors are still assholes. Position in the community should have very little weight on any administrative issues (though note I said "should" and not "doesn't"). It's not like we'd turn a blind eye if Jimbo deleted the main page or anything. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I feel that tjstrf's comment most closely approxiamates the spirit of WP's position, in that infractions are viewed in context to the miscreants general contributions. However, I acknowledge that *Dan T.*'s observation is (depressingly often) evident when an contribtor launches an Appeal to Authority argument when warned/commented about actions, which are then supported by other editors (or sometimes promoted by them).

Anyone who says "I have been a Wikipedian for X years with Y,000 edits to my name, so my actions are correct" rather than attempt to explain their actions does not seem to have understood the ethos of WP in all that time, but one with such a record who transgresses may often received AGF where there might be extenuating circumstances.LessHeard vanU 22:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think it's actually more like Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt - some editors have just used theirs up. Established productive editors are usually handled gently - but so are new editors who haven't earned any "street cred". Editors who've demonstrated they're only here for inappropriate purposes aren't likely to be given the extra leeway we might dispense otherwise. WilyD 14:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that we expect all editors to adhere to community-established standards of courtesy and civility. I have occasionally blocked longstanding editors for persisting in various sorts of antisocial behaviour. If it seems that new contributors get less leeway or are blocked more often, there may be several processes at work:

• If a user conduct problem arises, the amount of effort the community is willing to put into redeeming a user is roughly proportional to the amount of effort the user has put into a community. Wikipedia is not therapy; past a certain point, we're just not going to be willing to put thankless effort into trying to acculturate a new editor who just doesn't 'get it'. We are apt to put more effort into an established editor with a history of good contributions—in such cases we know that they are capable of positive contributions.
• Editors who have been around for a long time are familiar with the culture, and have seen how Wikipedia is managed. They take warnings more seriously (or recognize when they are about to be blocked, at least) and know when to back off. New editors don't have this experience.
• 'Old hands' are also more likely to realize, after they've screwed up, that they have screwed up. If they do get blocked, they're more likely to have the good sense to acknowledge their error, offer a mea culpa, and be unblocked. New editors have a tendency to fly off the handle and start screaming about 'censorship' and 'abuse'—this strategy seldom results in an unblock.
• Long-term editors are more of a 'known quantity' than new or unregistered editors. Admins are more likely to trust (or at least, to know if they can trust) editors with whom they are familiar. Long-term editors have a vested interest in maintaining their reputations, and may be less likely to risk their credibility by resuming an edit war after receiving an early unblock.
• There is a natural selection process at work, as well. Senior, long-term editors are, by definition, individuals who both enjoy contributing to Wikipedia and who have successfully avoided doing anything to earn a long-term block. Editors who don't fit Wikipedia's culture get weeded out early, consequently the preponderance of blocks goes to newer accounts.
• Editors who have been on Wikipedia a long time are much more likely to be admins than people who just signed up (or who lack an account altogether). This may contribute to the impression (for the reasons I have listed) that admins or a cabal or clique of oldtimers exists which gives preferential treatment to senior editors.

Hope that helps. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, editors who've been shown to consistantly edit war are far greater risks to keep doing it than editors with an established history of not doing it. People aren't blocked for violating rules, they're blocked to stop their disruptive behaviour. Editors with long histories of non-disruptive behaviour are far lower risks of being disruptive than editors with long histories of disruptive behaviour are. WilyD 14:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think established editors get special treatment. I have seen this editor who has made major contributions to a WikiProject, and yet is sent to the ArbCom numerous times and eventually banned due to edit warring. So, I guess equality holds most of the time.--Kylohk 11:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Multiple points

I would like to make three points.

New users

As you progress through video games the levels keep getting harder, so what I was thinking is that we should create a page that has a level by level list of things to do for a newcomer so that they may learn and progress, something like this but more detailed:

1. Patrol recent changes
2. Wikify pages
3. Request adminship
4. Settle a dispute

Did I make myself clear? Jeffrey.Kleykamp 10:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, but these can be done in any order you like. You may want to look at CAT:BACK for other things to do. >Radiant< 11:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is ordering things in such a way that the person has the proper experience to solve the problems created by a certain issue. Basically ordered in such a way that if you follow it you will learn the faster then if you didn't (like a study guide), because there a best order to learn for the "average" person. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 13:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

One more try: I want tasks ordered from easiest to hardest with occasional notes like "all after this require adminship". Jeffrey.Kleykamp 13:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

But the most challenging tasks -- which IMO are those involving dispute resolution and/or the creation of feature-quality content -- don't require admin tools at all. -- Visviva 15:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I created a page: New User Study Guide, please feel free to add something. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 18:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I don't think the actions above need to be done in any specified order, but point 3 should almost always be the last thing to do.--Kylohk 13:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
• RC Patrol can't be the first activity, as it is necessary to learn some WP standards to judge changes properly. But even Wikification has certain prerequisites other than merely knowing the Wikimarkup codes. You might assemble such a list but include links or descriptions of prerequisites. (SEWilco 18:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC))

I made a page, and it's basically like you say, look/comment/edit there. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 18:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Ultimate algorithm

How about a to-do list or algorithm that a person would need to go through to "complete" an article, something like this but, again, more detailed:

1. Read article
2. Check references
3. Wikify
4. Check grammar
5. Check spelling

Did I make myself clear? Jeffrey.Kleykamp 10:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, but these are usually done in arbitrary order, and repeatedly, and by different persons. However, we do have guidelines on writing good articles, such as the Manual of Style. >Radiant< 11:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, when I edit an article, I perform the steps 1 -> 4 -> 5 -> 2 -> 3 -> 5. This is especially when I am confident that certain content would be mentioned, since I've heard it in real life.--Kylohk 13:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
• The links on the right side of WP:FA have hints. (SEWilco 18:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC))

What hints? Jeffrey.Kleykamp 18:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• • • He's talking about WP:FACR, which the algorithm above should be based upon, and I believe criterion 1 should always be satisfied first.--Kylohk 11:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Hard to find pages

It's really hard to find certain pages, and the only way to find something that you don't know the name of is by starting at related articles and surfing over, or by asking at the reference desk, this needs to be fixed, any suggestions? Jeffrey.Kleykamp 10:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• There's categories. Try starting from any Wikipedia:Portal, or from Category:Fundamental. >Radiant< 11:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I forgot categories but what I mean also applies to categories for example if a category has 100 entries and you don't know the name then you would have to scan all 100, while you would know that certain articles aren't what you're looking for, other articles look correct by looking at the name but when reading the article you would notice that it's incorrect and you would have to continue searching. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 13:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

There are several solutions to this problem, I usually use this one CitiCat 16:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

How do you search for something that you don't know the name of? <-- This is the point I'm trying to make. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 16:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, you must know something about it, a person involved, a place, a description, etc. You just search by what it is you know. Maybe you have an example of the kind of thing you're trying to find? CitiCat 17:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have anything because this is a general problem and not one that I have but how about the article that explains the "I approve this message" message at the end of US politician's T.V. commercials? See I don't know what it's called but I could ask at the reference desk, start at the political ads article and surf, look through the US politics category, or I can search for "I approve this message", but there must be an easier way. I just looked and found the article it's called "I approve this message"... HAHA :P Jeffrey.Kleykamp 17:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Easy enough [2]presto. CitiCat 22:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC) I just put the search link I posted above in my bookmarks bar, it works real well. CitiCat 22:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

When you have trouble finding an article, but you do find it eventually, consider adding a redirect so the next person can find it more easily.-gadfium 20:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You're describing linking problems, and I'm working on improving linking within known information, but the basic problem is expressing what you are looking for. The problem is compounded by being unable to read your mind. You have some concepts with various amounts of precision which you're trying to combine. When you can't define your concepts in words, or similar words which others have used, search tools have difficulties. Future technologies such as the semantic web may produce better tools. However, Wikipedia's search tools are known to not be particularly good. If you can find programmers who can improve the search tools we'd all appreciate it. (SEWilco 18:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC))

Edit by mail

I think Wikipedia should have a function that allows readers to send articles through email. The sender should be able to include their name, email address, and a brief note.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.51.81.217 (talk • contribs)

If you want to create a page without registering an account with Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Articles for creation, but it's easier to create an account. No personal information is required. What advantage would a system of creating articles by email have? The only situation I can think of is for someone who has access to email but not the World Wide Web, or who is blocked from editing wikipedia by a local policy, such as one which bans any url with "&action=edit" in it.-gadfium 06:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Also see Wikipedia:Why create an account? SalaSkan 20:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Violation of deletion policy?

I'd just like to bring this to the attention of the community, as it's incredibly frustrating me.

We've been trying to write neutral articles about the fringe science/pseudoscience topics HHO gas and Brown's gas for more than a year now, so that the public can see concisely what's actually being claimed and why these claims conflicts with laws of physics, etc. (See Talk:HHO gas#References annd Talk:Brown's gas#References for a bunch of references and background information.)

They have been nominated for deletion several times, with a whole bunch of people getting them deleted with votes like "Delete - this is pseudoscience". (I repeatedly maintain that this is not a criteria for deletion; we have lots of articles about pseudoscience, hoaxes, fringe science, and the like, but this falls largely on deaf ears. But this is besides the point.)

The last DRV explicitly said that a sourced article could be recreated. Anticipating another AfD, we worked really hard to gather reliable sources for every claim made about this stuff before recreating the article. It was eventually recreated by a proponent, and we got to work debunking and adding sources and criticism. I added comments by James Randi, Don Lancaster, and scientists mentioned in news articles, for instance. We added references to many news organizations, all notable enough to have Wikipedia articles about themselves. When we removed weasel word unsourced criticisms added by one particular user and replaced them with sourced criticisms like the above, he again nominated it for deletion. (For the record, I have been debunking crap like this on Wikipedia for four years. I am not a proponent or a hoaxer, yet have been labeled one in this debate, in spite of all logic and evidence, for trying to maintain a neutral point of view instead of an overly critical pseudoskeptical point of view.)

As for the violation itself:

In this latest AfD, about 19 editors (including seven admins) voted to keep the article, while about 15 editors voted to delete. In my opinion, a majority to keep, with competent editors on both sides, is pretty clearly not a "rough consensus for deletion", so the article should be kept, according to our deletion policy. Yet it was deleted. Again. By an admin who decided that his opinion was important enough to override a clear consensus for keeping the article. He made the exact same arguments in his closing statement as others made in their deletion votes, completely ignoring the actual discussion.

When we tried to put this decision up for deletion review, the deletion review was closed before anyone could participate, claiming that the previous AfDs for this article (and other related, but distinct, articles) were sufficient to demonstrate that we shouldn't have an article. But that's not how the deletion process works. Thankfully another admin re-opened it.

I thought DRV was supposed to be about the deletion process itself, but it's just filling up with more arguments for and against the article itself, like those made in an AfD. Can some uninvolved admins please get involved here and look at the actual deletion process itself? — Omegatron 12:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Everything looks okay to me. AfD is not a vote, and the delete arguments are much more solid. The DRV didn't need to be closed early, but it wasn't going to change anything: the last AfD was just fine, and DRV is not a second chance. Mangojuice^talk 19:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

AfD's need to go back to the prior consensus approach. To say in any case of consensus decision making that the losing side's arguments were more solid is wholly subjective and is tantamount to autocracy. It's also an affront to the intelligence of those with the winning position. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 04:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

AfD's need to go back to the prior consensus approach.

"Go back to"? Isn't the "consensus approach" what we theoretically use now?

To say in any case of consensus decision making that the losing side's arguments were more solid is wholly subjective and is tantamount to autocracy. It's also an affront to the intelligence of those with the winning position.

I couldn't agree more. (Though by "losing side" I think you mean "minority", since the minority is "winning" in this case.) — Omegatron 23:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

John Dewar and Professor John Dewar

I have been trying to create an article about John Dewar, the founder of the globally acclaimed John Dewar & Sons, Ltd. Scotch whisky company. However, there is a stub article about the Professor John Dewar at a university in Brisbane, Australia, and this is not allowing me to create another page under the John Dewar name.

Is there a simple solution to this problem?

How about John Dewar (distiller) or similar? Exploding Boy 18:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Hold on, I see the problem. John Dewar was created as an unnecessary redirect. I've fixed it, so you should be able to use it now. Exploding Boy 18:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I was about to post:

"It seems that the professor is actually Professor John Dewars; therefore the best thing to do is probably to edit the 'John Dewar' article, replacing the current link to the 'Professor John Dewars' article with an article on the man actually called John Dewar; possibly with a link to John Dewars, but as he is not called John Dewar and his article is a stub, I see no particular need to have such a link. That's assuming, of course, that you have sufficient information to produce a well-sourced and neutral article on the man."

But then I thought to check for sources; and, to complicate matters, it seems that the professor actually IS called John Dewar, contrary to the title of his Wikipedia page (John Dewars). Nonetheless, the distiller is probably more notable (a deputy vice-chancellor isn't far above the bar of the Professor Test); so probably the new article should go at John Dewar, and the stub be moved to John Dewar (academic) or similar. TSP 18:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not a disambiguation page for the name John Dewar... then articles on John Dewar (accademic) for the professor and John Dewar (distiller) for the distiller? That way things are perfectly clear and there is no need to pass judgment on the prof. Blueboar 19:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a base name dab seems appropriate here. Google searches on "John Dewar & Sons" and "John Dewar" Griffith yield results counts in the same order of magnitude. (as do "John Dewar" whiskey and "John Dewar" professor). -- JHunterJ 19:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Need help, don't be mean to me for not understanding all the policies

Can someone explain to me more about Wikipedia:Resolving disputes?

Say there's an administrator that is on Wikipedia purely to bully other users, usually targetting new users who don't know how to defend themselves. Normally ArbCom should look at the evidence for desysopping.

However, Wikipedia:Resolving disputes is designed to ensure admins can keep abusing.

(the first thing listed, though it doesn't call it the first step) Avoidance. Wait it out while the admin continues abuse. Then the admin can ban you forever any time he wants long before you can finally get to ArbCom who can do something. So that won't work.

First step: Talk to the other parties involved -- It's not an article, but an abuse admin. He doesn't just target one place and what he targets is new people who don't know how defend themselves so he just makes people leave the project. I'm not sure what to do here. I also can't talk with the abusive admin, because Wikipedians have a technique of falsy calling anything they want a personal attack or harassment, and since he's an admin, he can ban anyone he wants without any reason based in reality at all. In addition, wikipedia has some hidden policy that complaining about admins or showing diffs of their abuse is a personal attack (even though it's not) and they ban for that. So if I go to the admin's page and tell him anything, he'll falsely call it a personal attack and ban me -- it's possible even the slightest thing will make him think "He's trying to go through the steps to ArbCom, so if I ban him, he can't do anything."

Second step: Disengage for a while -- the admin will then ban forever. There are records of admins who have banned people forever after they stopped editing for months.

Further dispute resolution....

Wikipedia:Requests for comment -- This requires talk page talk and the abusive admin will be able to falsely call anything I say a personal attack no matter what so he'd ban me long before this.

Basically the admin is abusive and someone should look at it and punish the admin, instead of this dispute resolution process designed to protect the admin.

Small note: Also, don't ask who the abusive admin is; it's some hidden policy that complaining about any specific admin is against the rules (they lie and claim it's personal attacks or anything they want to make him). Also, don't abuse me for making an account so I can ask for help without the admin wikistalking; please just help.

So I'm asking for help here, what can I do? Jason Ireland 16:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Your next-to-last paragraph makes it impossible to place the issue into context, and therefore makes it difficult if not impossible to provide a meaningful response. Snakesouls 17:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The 2nd to last paragraph is just a small note, and not part of the main story. I can tell what is unclear to people. If anyone can be specific on what's unclear, I'd clarify. Thanks. Jason Ireland 17:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Without any context, your query is specious. If there is, in fact, "an administrator that is on Wikipedia purely to bully other users", it would be in everyone's interest to end such activity. But if it's a case of you feeling bullied by an admin, then there are appropriate channels through which to address the situation. Vague cries of victimhood aren't going to help you--real information is required to judge whether you've been unfairly treated, this is a misunderstanding that has escalated, or if you're a justifiably blocked editor.

What kind of help were you expecting to get with a thread lacking any useful information? — Scientizzle 17:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on the channels of help? So far the only thing I can find on the site is basically to tell the admin they're being abusive and get banned forever by that admin because the admin falsely calls it a personal attack -- is there any option for help other than this? Jason Ireland 17:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

If you've actually got a case, open a thread on WP:ANI. Make sure it's got every relevant diff and is devoid of personal attacks. WilyD is right: don't make it a screed against a a "bully", but rather a query about incivility/inappropriate use of admin tools. — Scientizzle 18:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment on actions, not the user. "You are a bully" is a personal attack - "Deleting Johnny Nobody under CSD G17 was inappropriate because CSD G17 doesn't exist" is not. But again, without details, it's hard to offer advice. WilyD 18:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:FORUM

There are a large number of talkpage threads such as this one, which contain material inviolation of WP:NOT. I have been ticked off for removing these sections; what should one do, then?--Rambutan (talk) 19:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• Just keep blanking them until they realize it's much easier to post on a message board or channel. WP:NOT does not prescribe keeping such discussions in any way. –Pomte 19:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• WP:TALK explicitly states: "Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal". You were completely right to remove. Maybe you should just leave a firendly message at the complaining admin's talk page to remind him of that? Malc82 23:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• Have you actually looked at the situation? Rambutan is not removing discussions - he's just removing talk page comments he feels are off-topic and citing WP:FORUM, which does not support doing that. This is not extensive talk page spam. WP:TALK is a guideline, and is not trumped by, among other things, WP:3RR (since he has been removing far more than three of these non-vandalism comments in a day) or the failure of Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks, which is, in most cases, a poor idea. Furthermore, Rambutan's insistence on policing articles on new Doctor Who episodes with an iron fist increasingly violates WP:OWN, which is the central problem here. Phil Sandifer 13:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It is indeed strange that an editor cannot understand that comments like this are vital to the construction of an article relating to a television episode that has yet to be broadcast, or that this is necessary to enable the refining of a piece for an unseen episode. If that editor had understood the requirements of such learned debate he may have not been blocked (quickly overturned). LessHeard vanU 21:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Non-universality in computation

There is an interesting case on AfD that deals with the application of the big three: WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV. In the nomination and comments for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Non-universality in computation, the arguments for deletion may involve novel interpretations of policy. From what I can see, the theory was a scholarly work published in RS. The arguments on the talk page center on rejections of the theory itself, rather than a constructive assessment of the encyclopedic value of the content and its sources. The AfD nomination states that it is intended to solve this 10-day old editing dispute (even though I see no evidence that dispute resolution was used first, which is also bad precedent). It may be worth a look to see if policy is being stretched beyond where it should, or to see if policy needs to be revised to address the issues raised. Dhaluza 10:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Mere publication in a peer-reviewed journal is not enough to establish the notability of a theory. There needs to be some response by the rest of the scientific community. This issue is addressed by the proposed guideline at Wikipedia:Notability (science). Selim Akl argues that the Turing Machine is not universal, but at present this appears to be a small minority view. Undue weight and WP:FRINGE imply that more recognition of Akl's opinion is needed before we can consider it notable. The Turing Machine article itself does not express any doubts about that machine's universality, so it seems to leave no slot open for the type of machine proposed by Akl. Since Akl is an editor of a recogized journal (Parallel Processing Letters) he is personally notable, IMHO, but his view of computational universality seems to lack recognition. EdJohnston 18:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Akl is, at least in part, proposing a wider definition of computable, including real-time computation on variable quantities. It is plausible that Turing machines, which are slow, cannot, even in principle, do this; there is another set of arguments in the same direction cited on Talk:Church–Turing thesis. Turing machine should have a paragraph acknowledging this; but no more, and not this article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The difficulty with including a paragraph in Turing machine is that Akl uses so much of the standard terminology in nonstandard ways that just to explain what he means and how it differs from the ordinary theory verges on original research. And it would take more than just one or two sentences to explain the difference... In particular, his notion of the word function is completely different than in the rest of mathematics, but to learn that I had to read through some of his papers. His research, while of clear interest to real-time computation, is quite orthogonal to the clasical theory of computability. A short reference in Church-Turing thesis would be much more appropriate. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, Akl himself states that his research is not about Turing machines: see the second paragraph, page 1, of this paper. [3]. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

First, I brought this to the attention of editors here to discuss the policy implications of the ongoing AfD, not to extend the content dispute to a new forum. The content dispute should be discussed on the article talk page, not here (and not on AfD either). Second, it seems that EdJohnston is acknowledging that the AfD is using a novel interpretation of core policy in a proposed guideline, so the policy implications are timely and relevant for discussion here. WP:FRINGE lists the primary concern for WP is not being the "primary witness to notability" to a fringe or non-mainstream theory. Once it is published in RS, that is no longer a concern, and the theory can be included in articles. There is no requirement that references must be referenced to be reliable--that is novel (and in my opinion excessive). According to the discussion, there were eight references, a few of which were co-authored. While I might go along with discounting a single publication in a minor journal, dismissing a series of co-authored articles seems over-the-top. Frankly I thought this was a simple case of a content dispute going nuclear, but there also seems to be a problem with the WP:IDONTLIKEIT wolf dressed in the sheep's clothing of novel policy interpretations. Dhaluza 00:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

You are presenting things the reverse way. I was the nominator, and my concern was the non-notability, not the verifiability. I did not refer to the guidelines-under-dicussion for dealing with the concept of notability in scientific topics. In fact, although I may at some point have seen them, when considering the notability of the nominated article I did not even think of them. All Ed did was point out that these guidelines-under-discussion agree with my interpretation of notability – which I consider a common sense interpretation. I don't know which of Wikipedia's core policies you are referring to when you mention a "novel interpretation of core policy"; maybe you could be more specific.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

It's the "big three" core content policies linked in the first line of this thread. Notability is only a guideline, which you invoke by dismissing the references. WP:V and WP:RS do not require references to meet the high standard you use, and by saying it is applying common sense, you seem to imply that the policies are not. The argument that the sources all have one common author is also dealt with at WP:NPOV. The NPOV is not "no point of view," so rejecting the references on this basis is also contrary to policy; see: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete. From what I can gather, the author's views are published in academic journals and books by a university press, which is well above the bar set by WP:RS. If you have counter-viewpoints that are also published, you can add them to the article, they are not grounds for deletion. Dhaluza 09:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI, the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Non-universality in computation discussion has evolved into new and even more novel interpretations of policy and guidelines, including citing policies that expressly state the converse of the arguments presented. Input from some policy guru's to keep this discussion in line with actual policy would be helpful. Dhaluza 02:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you are confusing content policies, like WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:OR, from the policies that determine what sorts of articles we have on Wikipedia (mostly WP:NOT, but with some unwritten policies on notability). Even if the content of an article meets the content policies,it is still possible for a consensus to form to delete the article. Note that I have no involvement with the AFD; I'm just describing the current practice here. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. I understand that everything that meets the content policies does not necessarily merit inclusion. But there is a common thread through the content and inclusion policies, including WP:NOT which says, "If you have done primary research on a topic, publish your results in other venues such as peer-reviewed journals...." My reading of the discussion shows at bottom this is a case of censoring a dissenting scientific opinion that has been published in RS. Dhaluza 11:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Application of Summary style ?

Background:

I had a disagreement about the name/nature of a spin off page recently that was unresolved. In the interest of WP:AGF I've given some time for everyone to cool off, but I still would like to resolve the dispute and be able to apply the resolution to my future interactions regarding similar future issues. On the L. Ron Hubbard article, I added a significant amount of information concerning his service during WW 2. The info was spun off into an article now called L. Ron Hubbard and the military.

WP:SS as I understand it:

Summary style is the way large articles are organized and trimmed down to sizes which are outlined in WP:SIZE. Since the WW2 service was spun off I maintain that the new article should be about the information moved from the main article.

Other's view:

Several respected editors assert that the new article is not an extension of the original article into a series. They gave me the impression the article is a sort of sub-page for detailed discussion of his relationship with the military in general via his brief USMC service and later forming a paramilitary type organization.

Question:

I simply want to know how this guideline is interpreted. Anynobody 00:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd think that either would be an acceptable sub-article, and we can always revise the scope of an article or sub-article if there is similarly themed information that isn't a full article yet but still long enough for it to be desirable for a split to be made from the main page. If there's enough information on his paramilitary organization for its own page though, then keeping it and his WWII page seperate would probably make more sense. --tjstrf talk 01:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure this was done with the best of intentions, but I think there's a *lot* to be said for keeping our L. Ron Hubbard coverage in a single article. -- Visviva 01:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It is a difficult situation, since both arguments do make sense. How I came to the view I have was by laying them each out in a flowchart and seeing which one "flowed" better (FYI The Sea Org is the paramilitary organization I was referring to.) Anynobody 01:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Right now the article is mostly laid out chronologically but with a deviation that either ends in his pre-war writing career or skips that and goes to Dianetics. There is also the Sea Org proposal made originally but not yet implemented.

My proposal follows chronological events, makes use of the subpage to explain the detailed WW2 info, and then brings the reader back to when he wrote Dianetics.

Visviva I don't disagree with your point, but if the article were to be split how should the split page be treated? (Not just for Hubbard but any article) Anynobody 01:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Experts

The Sunday Times has criticised Wilkipedia for accepting articles from non-experts. Non-experts are sometimes right, but not always. Experts are sometimes wrong. We are grown-up, so we should be allowed to choose what to believe. Heaven help us from infomation censorship by experts or anybody else.

OK. --Golbez 15:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Quite ironic being criticised by a newspaper considering some of the rubbish written by journalists about subjects they're not expert in! I've seen a lot of utterly incorrect "information" presented as fact in highly respected media sources. -- Necrothesp 15:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The Sunday Times are clearly accepting articles from non-experts as well. Clearly they have no idea of the core principles of WP:V and WP:OR. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹^Speak 17:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Many tabloids these days post speculative stuff all the time just to draw circulation and profits. A violation of WP:CRYSTAL indeed. Ho ho.--Kylohk 18:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to criticise The Sunday Times for using newsprint. LessHeard vanU 19:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Wikipedia should have a system in place to identify expert editors. Perhaps not make their editing power higher in a technical sense, but more as a signal to others that this editor has more knowledge about the matter than you or I, and hence their opinions (and edits) should be respected. If Wikipedia welcomed experts to become editors, and had a system to accommodate them, this would go a long way to dispelling claims of 'inferiority'. Suicup 05:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

There is. It's the Talk page. Generally, an actual expert in the field will identify themselves there, where others can verify their credentials. Even so, I would be against putting a template or other notice on an article stating that it's been reviewed by an expert, because the article can change after that. Plus, experts don't always agree. -- Kesh 01:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Several proposals have been put forth but none has achieved consensus for implementation. See Wikipedia:Ignore all credentials, Wikipedia:Credential verification, and User:Jimbo Wales/Credential Verification. -- Satori Son 01:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm after reading those it seems the major problem was a logistical/implementation issue. How about a relatively simple system like email? eg the way you join a particular network in facebook. you can only join a particular college network if you have a valid email from the same college. thus, the 'proof' of who you are is the fact you have an email from the institution you purport to be from. Obviously this would start in Universities (as they all have email) but really it could be extended to any kind of organisation. That way, most experts would be able to be verified. What could then happen is, based upon the users particular competency, this is indicated via either their user name or user page. The reason I like the user name method is that if you see an edit summary of a page which falls under the experts 'jurisdiction', you can easily see that they have offered expert advice, where as if it was just a random article they would appear as a regular user. That is, the notification only extends as far as what the person is an expert in. Suicup 07:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Did you read a different version?

Most of the disagreement was the more philosophical point about creating a two tier editing culture.

It's not going to happen any time soon, unless King Jimbo rules it.

ALR 22:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the only things that matter in Wikipedia are contributions and community. If you're nice to people and make valid contributions, then you can be here. It doesn't matter if you're a rocket scientist or 3 year old from Egypt. Gutworth (talk) 02:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That isn't really the issue. At some point articles (especially on complex/specialised topics) will become out of reach of the 'amateur'. In order to complete the article (indeed to get it to an FA standard) it is helpful, and frankly necessary for an 'expert' to be able to contribute to it and the discussion. This is even asked for as a template on some articles. The key idea is that experts should be more easily identifiable than they currently are. This has nothing to do with editing privileges and everything to do with signaling and respect. Identifying experts and getting them to contribute seriously will not ruin the philosophy of Wikipedia, but rather will make good/great articles even better! Suicup 09:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm failing to see the point of this discussion, then. What is this about? How news media are wrong/write about experts on Wikipedia, how we could use more experts, or how should experts be considered when their contributions to articles or in question? I just was putting my two cents in on experts on Wikipedia. Cheers! Gutworth (talk) 02:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleting from an Article's Discussion Page

What is the policy on deleting from a article's discussion page? Having not paid attention to an old discussion from months and months ago (which seems to have been resolved), I'm unhappy with some of the aspersions cast therein! Any suggestions? Blaise Joshua 12:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleting talk info is not within the limits of standard practice, however, archiving the talk pages certainly push old discussion into the "out of sight, out of mind" area. Check out WP:ARCHIVE for instructions on the the best way to do this. CredoFromStart ^talk 17:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Major change to Reliable sources

In mid-April, a major change to WP:RS went by with little notice. Previously, the "Scholarship" section began:

"Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly explanations. Wikipedia articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic."

It was changed by this edit to read:

"Wikipedia relies in part on material written by scientists, scholars, and researchers around the world. These may be outdated by more recent research, or may controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly and non-scholarly treatments. Wikipedia articles should therefore ideally rely on all majority and significant-minority treatments of a topic, scholarly and non-scholarly, so long as the sources are reliable.

(Substantive changes are bolded.) Notice that this puts scholarly and non-scholarly sources on an equal footing. Do we really want to put newspaper op-eds and the like on a par with peer-reviewed journals and reports from the National Academy of Science? I'm really bothered by the fact that a major change to one of Wikipedia's most important principles went by with nary a peep, and was implemented with an edit summary of "tidied writing, removed bits that made little sense or stated the obvious."

More discussion here, which I encourage all interested to read. Raymond Arritt 22:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this. Adrian M. H. 15:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Straw poll on the proposed replacement for this section. Tim Vickers 22:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, but perhaps the article could have mentioned the different views in different ages in the history section, such as when they used to claim the sun goes around the Earth, etc.--Kylohk 21:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Opinion needed on photo licensing/fair use

A while ago, I uploaded Image:AtwaterDonnellyScituate.jpg for use in Atwater-Donnelly. Aubrey knew and approved. I recently tried to get a formal GFDL release from her, but her response just granted permission to use it, without explicitly putting it under a free license. Given that I put the text of the letter in the description, do I need a fair use rationale as well? And are there any other issues I should worry about? Thanks.--SarekOfVulcan 12:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Should be fine if you add it. Write a short fair-use rationale (and include what you have alredy mentioned there). Malc82 14:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, will do.--SarekOfVulcan 16:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the approval from Aubrey is meaningful in this case. The copyright holder is Berge Ara Zobian, the photographer, unless you know something I don't. We can still only use this image under the full considerations listed at Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria. Replaceability will be the tricky part. Sancho 16:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Replaceability looks indeed to be the tricky part, and in this case not satisfied. It doesn't matter if the fair-use image would be "preferable". It matters if a free-use image is possible, not if it is preferable. We always use free-use in preference to fair-use. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And, of course, don't forget that we also prefer no image to fair use of a copyrighted image, if a free use image could possibly be created. Just because no one has done so is no reason to use a copyrighted image. This is thought to encourage the creation of free/libre content. (It's this somewhat counter-intuitive part of WP:NONFREE that often confuses people. And I say "counter-intuitive" because it would seem logical that an encyclopedia would prefer some content or coverage of a topic to no content or coverage. But this one doesn't.) Jenolen ^{speak it!} 03:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well...yes. Since we also prefer to have no article than to copy & paste an article we don't have from the current edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica. :) Garion96 (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

New policy proposal

This proposal has been rejected by the community.  Tcrow777  talk  02:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I've proposed a new policy at Wikipedia:Non-merit attacks. I'd like to see some consensus there. Thanks. Cool Bluetalk to me 01:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Sounds great, but I do have some problems with the following: Sexual orientation Gender identity (if it means being trans-sexual) Thank you!  Tcrow777  talk  02:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC) Reluctantly, I take that back.  Tcrow777  talk  02:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Television episode notability

There are a rash of articles on Wikipedia aboout individual television episodes which will never meet notability guidelines, and thus do not warrant their own article. At Episode coverage taskforce we have been working on ways to encourage editors and contributors to provide relevant episode information on list or season pages, and use individual pages for notable episodes only. Consequently, we have expanded Episode guidelines to make them more helpful and explanatory, working on a few 'how to' project pages, and also developing a review process for problem pages. In the past, unnotable pages have been merged or redirected on sight, or left mouldering with unactioned clean-up tags. This proposal provides for a tagging of problem pages, encouraging improvement, and a process for review and action (as appropriate). Come and see Wikipedia:Television article review process and add comments on the talk page. Gwinva 07:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

• Everyone knows the old Wikipedia adage, "If it's on TV, its per se notable." Now quit whining and go back to editing please. Gatorphat 03:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Most television episodes can be potentially watched by millions, and redistributed in some other country, attracting more notice, hence TV episodes are notable for being themselves.--Kylohk 21:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Please read over WP:N, WP:V, and WP:RS. This seems to be a really big problem with people. TTN 21:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

All articles on Wikipedia must conform to WP:NOTABILITY. Just because something exists, or is seen by millions, does not mean it is automatically notable. I exist. Over my life, I will be seen by millions. Does that make me notable? Television might be an easily accessible medium, but that in no way determines that everything on it is notable. Gwinva 15:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting comparison (between the TV and you) Rahk E✘[[ my disscussions | Who Is ]] 02:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Bad comparison. You are accidently seen by millions over your life time. That is a world of difference from millions of people intentionally looking at you. I'll bet that you must be a notable person for certain if millions of people are intentionally looking at you! Mathmo ^Talk 11:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, poor analogy...But existing, and being watched (out of choice or otherwise) does not make something noteable. Being commented on by many (reliable sources) does (see WP:NOTABILITY). There are thousands of programmes on television every day; no way will they all meet notability guidelines, since not enough people care enough about them to write about them (reviews, out-of-universe production and commentary information). ALL articles on Wikipedia neet to assert their notability. Most programmes have enough information to sustain 'list of' or season pages, but there is not enough real-world commentary to warrant articles on EVERY episode on EVERY programme. SOME programmes will. SOME episodes will. Great..lets create good pages on those. If they don't, then let's create good season and episode-list pages. Gwinva 13:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Not that I'm advocating their removal, but what is the justification of notability for the episode-list pages? But on the subject of the episode pages themselves: has anyone considered migrating the information on pages to be deleted rather than destroying it altogether? There are wikis geared for this kind of information... and it would beat seeing it disappear. --MikeMaller 19:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I say that if there is a "rash of articles" on something, contributed by people not trying to force some agenda, and it does not meet the notability guidelines, then it is the guidelines that are at fault. 208.76.104.133 08:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

That arguement doesn't work, I'm afraid. Ever watched the speed with which articles are created at Special:Newpages? An epidemic rather than a rash... Wikipedia has guidelines about which pages should remain...and it must continue to do so if it is to remain an encyclopedia and not an indiscriminate collection of information. Other wikis exist for that purpose, but not Wikipedia. Gwinva 08:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add in response to the top of this section that nothing is notable just for being itself. 81.104.175.145 21:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps another way of stating this, that people might like to think about, maybe bring up elsewhere... in most categories of 'thing', should a particular only be considered notable if it is notable among such things? Obviously nations, currencies, heads of state, and so on can't meet this test, but otherwise it seems appropriate. Admittedly it fails to be objective, at least easily, but it has a certain feeling of sense, to my mind. SamBC 22:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed clarification and expansion of WP:V

A proposal has been made to incorporate a new wording on reliable sources (that is based on a proposal that was approved unanimously in a straw poll at the WP:Reliable sources talk page) into the WP:Verifiability policy. The proposed new section is on the policy talk page at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Sources 2. Tim Vickers 20:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Trusted Users

Also listed at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)

I was talking to some users on IRC, and one was talking about giving trusted users some "special" features that admins have, like roll back and being able to view deleted pages. I was thinking about this, and it makes sense to give trusted users these abilities. This kind of goes along with the whole "partial admin" thing, but really it will just make things simpler. I think trusted users should get rollback, the ability to view deleted pages, and the ability to protect and unprotect pages. Yeah, this has been proposed at before for roll back at WP:ROLL and at WP:LAM, but with the increasing attention and vandalism Wikipedia is getting, this would lighten the load on the current admins (who can't seem to keep up with the backlog). I know this has been shot down, but the proposal at WP:LAM was nearly a year and a half ago, and things on Wikipedia have changed a lot since then. What harm could come out of having Trusted Users, or whatever term you want to coin? It would only be for the positive. This would help lead into RFAs because !voters would see what a user has done with there tools, and wouldn't go off of edit count so much, because edit count is generally something a !voter uses to see how well a candidate will perform with the admin tools because they don't have anything else to go off of (major run on-sentence there :-)). I don't see anyways in which this could really be harmful. You're not giving a user the ability to delete pages, so you don't have to worry about a "rob-rage" user (deleting the main page) and you don't have to worry about a user making a bad block and screwing the foundation over some how. Like its said in WP:LAM, give roll back (which you could use with TW, but it doesn't hurt anything), give the ability to delete pages created within two days (this would help with CAT:CSD, which seems to be backlogged more often then not), give page protection abilities (which again, doesn't hurt a user directly (see also:m:Protected pages considered harmful)), access to Special:Unwatchedpages (which will help with vandalism), and give the ability to view a pages deleted history (which again, can't possibly caused harm). All of this can't hurt anything, and would help with backlogs. Again, this would also lessen all the crazy standards at WP:RFA, and help deal with vandalism. Read over this and WP:LAM instead of marking it off as stupid. Thanks! ~ Wikihermit 03:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I've had the same idea from time to time, and actually called them "Trusted Editors". I never brought it up because I figured some might think I was angling for it myself, however since Wikihermit mentioned it I want to take the opportunity to say what a great idea it is given the amount of backlog of many admin tasks. Anynobody 03:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's easy enough (some say far too easy) for trusted users to become admins (note I'm not an admin myself, although I like to think of myself as trustworthy user). The problem is that by rollback or protecting/unprotecting you could cause a lot of trouble and since it is oftenly complained that RfA has problems identifying problematic candidates, installing a level below that (i.e. with less strict criteria) doesn't seem like such a good idea to me. Malc82 08:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If someone's a trusted editor, make them an Admin. If the RfA crowd won't make them an Admin, apparently we don't trust them (although that place has a lot of problems, Wikipedia:Does the community trust me? is likely to be as bad - probably even worse since when you split things up, you get less eyes. WilyD 13:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Protection, deletion, and blocking do seem a little controversial. It is mind-boggling that we cannot gain consensus to give certain editors rollback when it is really No Big Deal. Some disagree that adminship is No Big Deal and choose to bring politics into the debate. Admin rollback is useful, and different from adminship, because it is more powerful than javascript rollback, but not "powerful" in a way that really could harm Wikipedia. Edit tokens are needed to use it, so it can't be super-bot-abused. Gracenotes^T § 12:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Without reviewing the previous discussions, I can quickly think of one matter which counts against the principle; how are trustees identified? If it is an application process then that is another layer of process, duplicating admin application (which may or may not be broke) and if it is simply seniority or number of edits then dedicated vandals will accumulate the criteria to have access to tools that could severely damage WP.

However, relating to this there was a (moribund?) proposal of simplifying admin promotion based around PROD which was being championed by Kim Bruning. If you can find this (Kim may be a little busy right now!) it may provide a model by which the community can allow editors to have limited extra tools where there is no challenge. LessHeard vanU 13:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It could be like the "Trusted User" idea at commons. Basically if you want it, throw your name up at some page, keep it open for a week and that's that. The same thing would apply here with it as well. You don't have to be a trusted user at commons to become an admin, and you wouldn't have to be a "trusted user" here to become and admin. You could skip it all together and go start to RFA. The whole idea is more helping hands with backlog and administrative work. ~ Wikihermit 15:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm unsure about this sort of idea. On the face of it, giving a few of the safer tools to trustworthy editors in order to ease backlogs seems like a great idea, and it may be able to function as a step closer to adminship, but the "proposed adminship" discussions highlighted the problems involved in trying to develop a safe and consistent method of approval that does not become a back door for as much trouble as the new system solves. It also creates yet another source of workload in itself (a problem that the proposal is trying to lessen). Would it not be better to focus efforts towards improving RFA, if it needs it? We need to make more admins via the proper channel rather than make another layer. Adrian M. H. 16:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS changes discussion at WP:V

Discussion of changes to Wikipedia:Reliable sources is under way at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Sources instead of on the article's talk page. (SEWilco 23:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

Not quite... there are discussions about the wording of WP:V going on on that policy's talk page (which is appropriate), but these discussions involve issues that were first raised on WP:RS. That proposed changes to the WP:V policy will have a huge affect on the WP:RS guideline, (and vice-versa) makes sense ... since WP:RS guideline is essentially a sub-page of the WP:V Policy, they are intimately connected. 38.105.193.11 18:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS deprecated?

And now while discussion is going on elsewhere, deletion of WP:RS is discussed back at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#WP:RS Guideline Deprecated.3F. (SEWilco 00:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC))

For clarification, there is some discussion of whether to re-fold the WP:RS guideline back into WP:V Policy (from whence it came). I don't think anyone is suggesting that the concept of RS will disappear. 38.105.193.11 18:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Editor gives dodgy website as proof to push POV

User:Bakasuprman who now faces ArbCom keeps cat tagging and linkspamming Indian articles citing this website as evidence. I would like to know if this site is violating WP:RS or not. The site claims to have been set up by a retired Indian police commissioner KPS Gill and voices his opinions as if they are matters of fact. Apparently, the site seems to have no other supporting evidence for any of their articles. Is this not a conflict of interest? Incidentally, Gill himself was convicted and imprisoned recently. Interestingly, the website lists Communist parties too as terrorists.

[4] [5] [6] [7]

See archive.

This editor also attempted to tamper with this post. Anwar 18:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is over here. Corvus cornix 03:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

COPPA

Is there a COPPA policy? At what point are we collecting sufficient information that COPPA applies to us? Is activating the ability to be emailed sufficient, for example?

Not expecting binding legal opinions here, of course, but a little bit of guidance would be appreciated. Thanks! Jouster  (whisper) 19:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• It's been debated before and shot down. Basically if it comes to our attention that a minor has released personal information it is oversighted and removed. Otherwise it isn't monitored. Websites aren't required to be pro-active on it as far as I know, just re-active. Most websites don't have the sheer numbers of people we do policing things for violations, so they take a pro-active stance on it. -N 19:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
  • So, let's say there's a 10-year-old on the 'pedia with email enabled, posting their real-life name, that's cool? Or I should report it? What if they didn't post their name, but did provide their email address, as evidenced by an Emailuser link? Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Jouster  (whisper) 19:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Definitely report it if their name is given. I don't think a bare email address qualifies though. A bare email address, not visible to anyone isn't personally identifying. COPPA only applies when the information becomes personally identifiable (name, address, etc) none of which Wikipedia asks for. COPPA is also specifically directed at websites that are expected to have high numbers of under 13 users, which Wikipedia is not. And if a minor does disclose this, as I've mentioned, such things are oversighted. WP:OVERSIGHT is --> that way. -N 19:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

As a non-profit entity, Wikipedia is largely exempt from COPPA regulation. However, most of use still beleive it is a good idea, ethically, to take steps to protect the privacy of children who may use Wikipedia. Dragons flight 20:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I'm not familar with US legislation but surely this sort of thing is the responsibility of the parents not other Wikipedia users? Shouldn't they be the ones who regulate the use of the internet by their children. Whilst I strongly, as a parent, want my children to be safe I can't see how this sort of thing would do so. Sorry.AlanD 21:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

That level of sanity is not compatible with the current US legal system, which is based, I sometimes suspect, on an intricate system of levers and pulleys which activate gears that drop marbles and pour water and eventually, once you reach the very center of the machine, you find a chicken pecking at a control stick that looks like a bug. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This chicken? Jouster  (whisper) 21:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No, this chicken. WilyD 13:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What I mentioned about it being shot down before is referenced here. Basically the community rejected a COPPA policy and as I've mentioned legally we aren't required to have one (if we were a website directed towards kids it'd be different). The Arbcom decision in that case boiled down to what I've already said: we don't have a policy but personal information can be oversighted as necessary. -N 23:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand... if you do come across a minor giving out personal information on his or her user page, you might consider dropping him or her a note to explain why doing so is a really really bad idea. 38.105.193.11 18:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There was a case recently where an 11-year old was giving out his full name, email address, city, and school on his User page. I pointed this out at WP:AN and an admin deleted the User page. Corvus cornix 03:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Changes to the biographies of living persons policy

Community input is solicited regarding significant changes to interpretation and use of the biographies of living persons policy. Please make comments or suggestions at the talk page. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Seraphimblade, could you please provide a link to a section heading? Shalom ^Hello 06:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I could provide quite a few. :) Quite honestly, there are changes proposed all up and down that page, it's not all confined to one section header. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 08:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Please ban User:DVdm, see User talk:DVdm, especially his sect. [[8]]

rm large copydump 84.158.253.69 20:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

If you have a complaint about this user's behavior, please take it up with that user first. if that fails, use our dispute resolution process. This page is for discussing Wikipedia policy, not the complaints department. And please do not copy large portions of Talk page discussions to other pages. -- Kesh 05:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Ban profanity on User pages and User talk pages

Further discussion should be conducted at Wikipedia talk:Profanity, not here. --tjstrf talk 05:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This is realy getting out of hand.  Tcrow777  talk 22:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC) What the fuck are you talking about? Kaldari 22:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Damn, you beat me to it. Seriously, though, there's nothing wrong with profanity. Your ears don't bleed upon hearing it, do they? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Seriously, Kaldari is asking a legit question; what is getting out of hand? The amount of profanity, or some people want to ban it? If we should ban anything, it is grammatical ambiguity!! LessHeard vanU 22:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC) So maybe it is not getting out of hand, but I want it stopped before it does.  Tcrow777  talk 22:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC) I'd suggest you not edit out our profanity. Very pointy of you, as well as uncivil. It won't stop, so put up with it. Curse words is how adults express their anger. You don't see a guy who just lost his pension saying "oh pussywillows", do ya? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC) I would say that :).  Tcrow777  talk 23:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Back to the issue at hand, answer LessHeard vanU's question. Where is it out of hand? On whose page? How so? Is it nothing but "fuck" repeated two thousand times? No one can help you if you don't explain yourself. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC) While "pussywillows" is certainly silly, I think it is equally childish to be expressing anger by writing out "hell", "fuck", "damn", etc. on your user page or in discussions. That said, I don't think a ban is worth pursuing. The prohibition on personal attacks already covers the most important case. Dragons flight 23:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC) I agree with Dragons flight.  Tcrow777  talk 23:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC) But disagree with Dragons flight on the ban.  Tcrow777  talk 23:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Here is one example. Tcrow777  talk 23:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC) That's hardly getting out of hand. You'll need to do better than that. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Whatever happend to having your head cut off for saying one cuss word!  Tcrow777  talk 23:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC) I believe that went the way of stoning people to death (in most countries, anyway). — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC) To add to that, you'll find that not everyone shares your Christian and/or Texan values. Sooner you realize that is the sooner you stop letting it get to you. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Exactly what are these "Texan values" you refer to? --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 23:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Just listed on his userpage as being Texan and Christian. I generalized under every base. May not have come out too nicely, but I'm finding this quite ridiculous. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC) The only thing I'm finding quite ridiculous is your treatment of other users. All users are entitled to their opinions. I think you need to review WP:BITE a little bit and try being nicer and not attacking people based on their religion or their origination. And there are plenty of mature adults who don't need to resort to cursing to express their anger, relying on cursing to express anger is something an immature teenager does. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 00:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Trying to ban all cursing is also quite immature. Regardless, before this gets too out of hand with the back and forth, I'll just note what this suggests won't happen anyway, so arguing about it isnt gonna solve anything. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC) I know it isn't going to happen. It shouldn't need to, editors should be mature enough to not have to litter pages with profanity. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 00:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Claiming those who use profanity are immature is pretty bitey as well. Let's just drop it, shall we? -- Kesh 00:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Not claiming everyone who uses it is immature, only those who over use it and rely on it to display anger. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 00:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC) That wasn't clear the way the post was worded. And still not a rather civil claim to make. Either way, I think this discussion has run its course. -- Kesh 00:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia is not the fucking Midwest or a goddamn Elementary School :) — Deckiller 00:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia:Profanity (an article guideline) says that "Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. Including information about offensive material is part of Wikipedia's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not." I think that the same should apply to User pages and User talk pages, and what if an Elementary School User sees profanity on Wikipedia.  Tcrow777  talk 00:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC) You should be more worried about them seeing Penis. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC) You are a pervert!  Tcrow777  talk 00:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC) No, I'm a Wikipedia user, as are you. Is cursing worse than penis? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC) The short answer is: Unless it's part of a personal attack, nothing will get done, unless maybe it's really gratuitious. Fuck you - you go to Hell and you die is not acceptable. I fucked up the formatting of the template is perfectly reasonable english. Hell, it was noted that the word Fuck appears in several of my edit summaries during my request for adminship (in the general context of things like rv self - I fucked up the formatting - but nobody gave a shit. Cheers, WilyD 01:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Personally, I think garish orange signature blocks are far more offensive than the odd swear word. Raymond Arritt 01:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Oh, as do I. Any attempts to refactor them were reverted as vandalism, though. Sean William @ 01:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Yeah, it's as obnoxious as heckhell, but judging from his comments on your talk page that's probably deliberate. Raymond Arritt Are we going to have a Seven Deadly Words of Wikipedia now? Sure we have a list of words we can't say on TV or radio, but please, this is the internet you can find ANYTHING on it. DarthGriz98 01:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC) This proposal is fuckin' instruction creep. szyslak 01:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC) As a group of civilized adults (well, most of us), Wikipedians should know that cursing is both rarely necessary and hardly something to take offense at. --tjstrf talk 01:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC) That actually sums it up pretty well. Let's move on, dang it. -- Satori Son 02:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Ban profanity??? That's some funny fuckin' shit, motherfucker!!! Gatorphat 01:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Yeah, it's pretty much impossible to ban such a thing on Wikipedia, the only thing stopping it elsewhere (ie: TV, radio) are massive fines. DarthGriz98 02:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC) I am only asking for this ban to be on User pages, User talk pages, and talk pages of articles that do not contain profanity.  Tcrow777  talk 02:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC) I don't buy the argument that it's "getting out of hand" or for that matter a problem. Users are free to express many things on their user pages. Look at Wikipedia:User pages. Gutworth (talk) 02:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC) I personally do not use on Wikipedia the type of language that the original poster is concerned about, and generally would prefer that others do not do so either (unless it's actually necessary, e.g. an article about the very words themselves). In most circumstances, the use of such language does not promote the type of civil and collegial working environment that most of us expect and that promotes the growth of the encylopedia. However, a "no obscene or profane words" rule would just draw more, rather than less, attention to this type of language and create a fuss over "censorship." We already have the policies promoting civility {WP:CIVIL) and forbidding personal attacks (WP:NPA) and hopefully those will be sufficient. Therefore, I respectfully oppose the proposal that has been made and suggest that the thread be dropped at this point. Newyorkbrad 02:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC) I have already said that this is not getting out of hand, yet.  Tcrow777  talk 02:57, 30 June 2007 (UTC) You should read your first sentence: "This is realy getting out of hand." Drop it, already. This won't happen. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC) I will drop it when it is so.  Tcrow777  talk 03:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Oh? In that case, I have the perfect solution: you should threaten a lawsuit. That should resolve this situation quite nicely and immediately. --tjstrf talk 03:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC) I would never threaten a lawsuit against Wikipedia, ever.  Tcrow777  talk 03:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Well, you could always try uploading lots of copyrighted images. That's a good way to draw attention to an issue. HTH. Raymond Arritt 03:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC) You could also try stalking editors in real life, or replacing pages with shock site images, or making billions of sockpuppet accounts, or breaking 25RR, or deleting the main page, or announce that you're a nazi pedophile on your user page. But, if you aren't going to try any of those, then I suggest you drop the issue, since it's going nowhere fast. Just go back to editing normally, we very rarely have cursing in articles themselves anyway. Threatening to not give up on an issue until you get your way is just as certain a way of getting banned as threatening a lawsuit, it will just take longer. --tjstrf talk 03:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC) That you're wikilawyering over your obnoxious signature aught to speed matters up a bit, though. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC) What is "wikilawyering"!  Tcrow777  talk 03:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia:WikiLawyering. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Being a m:DICK by missing the point of the rules in favour of over-literal interpretations of them. Wikipedia doesn't like the idea of legal loopholes. --tjstrf talk 03:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC) FFS let this die already. It's not gonna happen. No one cares anymore. So just let is die. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 03:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Ban so-called "profanity" on Wikipedia? What are you, the thought police? Censorship on Wikipedia is bad enough; we don't need more of that shit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 166.166.165.51 (talk) 03:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Profanity is "ban" on some users talk pages, such as Pastordavid and mine. If its profanity in you're userspace and you don't like, then comment it out using <!-- -->. You can't force other users to get rid of it though. ~ Wikihermit 04:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Please, please just say "Yes, I support this." or "No, I do not support this.", do not get all worked up about this.  Tcrow777  talk 04:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Yes, I support this!  Tcrow777  talk 04:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC) No, this is not happening. So why have a poll? --tjstrf talk 04:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC) Are you afraid that it will actually happen?  Tcrow777  talk 05:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC) He is giving a statement of fact - your proposal is not being considered. And in any case, your proposal would fail a straw poll to be honest, meaning that there is little point in having one. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 05:10, 30 June 2007 (UTC) That said, I'm archiving the discussion. Let's get back to our actual jobs here. --tjstrf talk 05:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

copyright and dissertations

(This was initially posted over at WP:Copyright problems; unfortunately, there was little in the way of feedback received there.)

I have run into several articles which appear to have been dissertations that were simply uploaded to the encyclopaedia. Unfortunately, I cannot find evidence of such information available elsewhere via Google.

For example, the following snippet is in the Yagua article:

"...For the purposes of this dissertation, then, we will assume that..."

How is this sort of copy-paste job handled? --Aarktica 01:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• If someone uploaded their dissertation to Wikipedia they have licensed it under the GFDL. If it is someone else's it's a copyright violation and should be deleted. Many times people write like that and aren't actually talking about a formal dissertation. -N 01:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• A dissertation uploaded to Wikipedia generally falls into two categories: WP:COPYVIO or WP:OR. In either case, they should be deleted or turned into a stub until verifiable independent sources can be found to write a proper article on the subject. If you can find evidence it is a copyright violation, a speedy delete template is appropriate. Otherwise, I would suggest tagging it for deletion as original research/possible copyvio. -- Kesh 02:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• This particular one looks easy to fix. In the history of the Yagua article, you will see that on 25-Nov-06 a user - with no other WP edits - has admitted to pasting from his/her own dissertation. My opinion (without bothering to read it) is it should be referenced, or removed as WP:OR. Peter Ballard 06:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for all the feedback. Based on your comments, I have removed the most suspect fragments in the article. Hopefully, that would be enough to keep the article from facing deletion. --Aarktica 13:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Gender neutral placeholder images

A user or group of users (apparently only on IRC) seem to have started a campaign to put gender stereotyping placeholder images which in my opinion are pointless and look worse than the original gender neutral ones. I don't really like these at all, but if we must have them we shouldn't use such ridiculous sterotyping images. Gender neutral one here Claude Bachand, female one Melissa Joan Hart, male one Christopher Lambert. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 20:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Looks pretty pointless to me. If such images bother you, I'd suggest you list them at WP:IFD. >Radiant< 12:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

intellegent scholars hassled off by losers

I read once that there was this policy set up because really intellegent scholars would come onto wikipedia and be hassled off by losers. Anyone familar with this policy? 69.153.81.182 00:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Civility... although it doesn't only stop intelligent scholars from being hassled by losers, but also losers from intelligent scholars, and everyone in between. Sancho 00:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Citizendium? --tjstrf talk 00:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh how I LOVVVEEE wikepidia, Instant gratification thanks User talk:tjstrf and User_talk:Sanchom :) 69.153.81.182 00:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Opps, spoke too soon, this isnt what I am looking for :( there was an Arbcom case some time ago, 2004 or 2005...wondering if policy came out of it... 69.153.81.182 00:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that was more or less the theory behind the founding of Citizendium. There isn't actually a policy that states what you are asking about, though there are certainly proposals regarding them (Wikipedia:Expert retention and linked pages.) We also have some rules that dictate when and how you may cite yourself, which I think are part of the WP:COI policy.

In general though, if by "hassling" you mean "not letting the professor add stuff just because he says it's true", we do allow that. Even if you are a professor, or for that matter a "professor", you must keep to the same standards of verifiability and referencing as everyone else. --tjstrf talk 00:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

There were just edit wars, if I recall. I looked through Wikipedia:Arbitration policy/Past decisions and couldnt find anything in particular. Thanks for your time User talk:tjstrf. Ha--thanks Wikipedia:Expert retention is perfect.69.153.81.182 00:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Scholars should hold themselves not to the same standards but to higher standards, because they have access to libraries and journals that often are not readily available to others. What "hassles" scholars is not the fact that they're expected to provide sources. Instead it's the fact that Wikipedia is too often like the wild west, where the ability to shout the loudest, swing the hardest, and outlast the other fellow counts more than the quality and depth of one's sources. Raymond Arritt 00:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is too often like the wild west, where the ability to shout the loudest, swing the hardest, and outlast the other fellow counts more than the quality and depth of one's sources." That's true but that's democracy for you. But as Churchill said: "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."--Svetovid 23:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• And finally, Wikipedia:Tendentious editors and Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. >Radiant< 07:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggested section to add to "Ownership of Articles" policy

Please see this edit I made which has since been reverted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AOwnership_of_articles&diff=141219492&oldid=140191430

(FYI, I expected the revert, but making the edit was a much more effective way of engaging people in discussion that just a comment on the talk page :) )

You can see my justification for this on the talk page. In a nutshell, I've seen a handful of situations where WP:BLP combines with a scandalous current event, and an ownership-like condition occurs where a number of editors revert any and all edits to a particular section, but that I think is justified in some rare cases. I've seen problems develop, though, where feelings are hurt unnecessarily (e.g. calling a well-intentioned editor a vandal) and I thought it would be of use to have some guidance on this topic.

Thoughts? Comments? --Jaysweet 16:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposing the change on the talk page is the preferred method for guideline/policy pages. Adrian M. H. 16:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Age of unreferenced

The discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification

A discussion is underway at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Age of unreferenced that in part suggests the use of the Wikitionary tag {{rfv}} to be used on new unreferenced articles (newer then January 1, 2007) which reads

rfvrfv

The rationale being at some point Wikipedia needs to start enforcing WP:V and WP:OR currently the rebuttal's center on encouraging use of references without actually removing unreferenced material. Jeepday (talk) 13:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification

Chicago and Philadelphia and the City,State convention

Over at the naming convention page, a discussion has been started about moving Chicago and Philadelphia back to the city, state standard. All views and inputs are welcomed. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 05:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed clarification of Content forking guideline

A proposal has been made to incorporate a new term ("ownership forking") to describe portions of existing guidelines on content forking.. Discussion on the proposed clarification is on the guideline talk page at Ownership forking revision proposal. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 15:33, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Rules applied to Featured Article before presentation on the main page

Recently Islam was presented on the main page as the featured article on June 1. What happened was that during June 1 and one, two days before it User:Beit Or and User:Arrow740 made significant changes to the article each receiving objections from some editors. The edit of User:Arrow740 was removed but that of User:Beit Or was preserved through edit-warring by users User:Proabivouac, User:Arrow740, and User:Sefringle despite a couple of editors expressed their objections to the new version.

Learning a lesson from the recent experience, I would like to suggest the following:

• When an article is supposed to be presented on the main page, no editor should unilaterally re-write a section of the article a day or two days before its appearance on the main page. Featured articles are featured because they have passed the peer-review process etc etc. The sections that are replaced recently may not have the quality one would expect. They may not even be neutral since they have been just written.
• Further, those who try to preserve an undiscussed version through edit-warring should be blocked in the future as violators of WP:OWN.

In fact, it might be best to revert back to the version that achieved consensus for being Featured article and present that version on the main page --Aminz 01:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

What should happen is that articles should be permanently protected in the state they were in when they passed FA. That's the only way to prevent WP:OWN violations.Proabivouac 01:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Protecting pages indefinitely just because they hit FA-class is absurd. We can always improve an article. If anything, having them indefinitely protected would heighten WP:OWN problems, since it would mean that the article is going to be at one person's "my revision" forever, and it would be very difficult to get consensus for any real change since it would require an {{editprotected}} request. --tjstrf talk 02:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you have not read my proposal in detail. The version that the article has recieved consensus for becoming FA is not anybody's version; it is the consensus. --Aminz 02:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

In any case, my proposal only requires not rewriting a section of the article within a day or two of its public presentation. --Aminz 02:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I was replying to Proabivouac, actually. Not you. Your idea sounds like a good one in general, though I'm not certain that it's important enough to be worth the effort and WP:CREEP it entails. --tjstrf talk 02:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh. Sorry. I thought you were replying to me :P --Aminz 02:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I should have added an emoticon to indicate my intent. There is something nearly contradictory in appealing to WP:OWN while asking that articles be locked into "approved" versions. There are several good arguments that can be made for protecting main page articles, but WP:OWN isn't one of them.Proabivouac 02:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:OWN is relevant in the context of edit-warring for keeping a recently re-written section. --Aminz 02:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• Indefinite protection is absurd, but I think it should be fully protected from like 2days before it goes up, till after it's taken down. This way we can stop any vandalism it attracts going onto the main article, and keep any major changes from going on with out consensus. Once it's taken off the main page it could be unprotected. Just my 2cents --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 02:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

If it gets fully protected two days before presentation, then we should ask others not to edit it just before protection. I think we should have show the public some stable version.--Aminz 02:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Articles linked from the main page should never be protected; they're our showcase of the wiki way. So you might get away with "two days before til the moment it goes up on the main page". --Golbez 02:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Aminz actually added ridiculous apologetics to the article the day it was on the main page, and posted many disruptive tags when he ran out of reverts. This is besides his objections to Beit Or's changes. Beit Or also opposed the FA at the time, making it clear that he had serious problems such as the ones he tried to address. Arrow740 04:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

CSD R2

There is a discussion currently going on about the rewording of CSD R2 to make it more efficient for the RFD process. The discussion at WT:CSD#CSD R2. Thanks. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 17:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Question regarding press release

Can someone help me take a look at Malden Mills? An anonymous user has been contributing a good bit of information today, including a copy-pasted press release. Should these edits be reverted? Besides a drastic need for wikification, is there anything 'wrong' with the article? Thanks -- Ratiocinate 16:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Press releases are generally not reliable sources. Further, a straight copy & paste is a copyright violation and must be reverted. -- Kesh 17:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Template:User en-6

Does this template fit within Wikipedia policy? Is this a pre-curser to de-6 or fr-6  Tcrow777  talk  07:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

You may want to see the discussion regarding its deletion. — The Storm Surfer 07:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I did and it said that this issue needed to be decided at a higher level in Wikipedia.  Tcrow777  talk  19:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Better Statistics

There are stats for the most viewed pages each month, however what I think would be more useful is a list of the most edited pages. This could be done on an absolute monthly basis (ie Article X was edited 1000 times in June), as well as a historical basis (ie Article X has had an average 5 edits per day).

That way, you can get a feel for which article is hot at the moment in terms of content being updated, as well as which articles have had the most work done to them. Suicup 11:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The results would be predictable. Of course, the most edited pages on the project are Wikipedia:Sandbox and Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism, with one edit every two minutes or so. The most edited articles will include some perennial vandalism targets (see Wikipedia:Most vandalized pages) and current events such as Virginia Tech Massacre, which I presume is still a hot topic more than two months after it occurred. Shalom ^Hello 09:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Rumours

I would like to start a discussion here on the inclusion of rumours in articles for upcoming films and TV shows. A great deal of effort is put into editing such articles by editors who will start by AGF and reverting politely but end up getting obsessive and possessive. A quick look at the talk pages for upcoming TV shows and films will reveal a number of editors being very terse in their quoting of Wiki rules and basically giving an air of ownership of the pages in question. I would like to propose a compromise that might help to calm things down a little.

I propose the inclusion of rumours from specific types of sources (newspapers, TV shows and certain other sources(the standards of which to be decided by consensus)) within a "Rumours" section on the main page or on a seperate "rumours about x" linked page. Consensus would then decide if the rumours section (or what portions thereof) would remain on the page following the release/airing of the film/show.

Reasoning

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia it should include all relevant information on a topic. Rumours that can be sourced appropriately are relevant facts on a topic prior to any substantial fact PROVIDED THAT THEY ARE CLEARLY MARKED AS RUMOURS and that they CLEARLY mark if they are proved or disproved in the end.

Further to this Wikipedia is an evolving encyclopedia and whilst one can look back through the history of an article or the archives on a talk page the constant evolution of articles can also be seen as a negative too. Before the release of a film large sections of the population may believe certain facts about that film that are then proven to be untrue. These may, currently, get a passing mention but on the whole that whole point in the film's history will be lost on Wikipedia thus it could be argued that the article on that film is incomplete.

An incidental point on this is that such a section would highlight the inaccuracy of the press and certain "reliable" sites. By having these sections on articles one will be able to clearly see after the release of a film just how inaccurate the reporting of said film was in the press. This is something the press likes to sweep under the carpet with their constant avalanche of new issues.

In Summary

I believe that by having a rumour section with clear rules and scope that pressure will be taken off editors and that inexperienced editors will feel less frustated. I believe that beyond this there is a compelling argument that these rumours are part of the history of a film or TV series and that they are a part of the gestalt experience of said films or TV episodes that we as an encyclopedia are wrong in omiting.

I am posting here to ask for comments and not to start arguments. Thank you for taking the time to read my proposal. AlanD 22:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipeida is NOT a Crystal Ball. This is not the place for rumors or conjecture about what might happen, even if such rumors are repeated in the major media. We should stick to the facts of what did happen. Blueboar 22:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

While I apprechiate your contribution it utterly ignores addressing any of my points. I am proposing a change of policy and I have set out my reasoning for that change. Simply quoting what "Wikipedia is not" does not address my points. Obviously Wikipedia currently doesn't support this otherwise I would not be asking for a change of policy. I am not proposing that rumours are reported as fact nor that such rumours should take over. I am proposing that the major rumours are part of the whole history of a film/TV show and that to ignore them utterly ignores part of the whole experience and is a diservice to the history of said film/TV show. I am putting this here to have dicussions for and against not to just have statements of Wikipedia's current policy. I do apprechiate you taking the time to comment and I'm sorry if my reply sounds rude but I, personally, felt your reply was terse and didn't address anything I'd proposed. I've got broad shoulders but new editors haven't and such replies could put them off editing rather than encouraging them to edit better. Again sorry if I sound rude but I wasn't asking if this fitted with current policy but what people felt the arguments for and against including rumours in any limited form were as a new policy. AlanD 23:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Something I forgot to say before is that I do not believe that this proposed change in policy should mark a move towards Wikipedia becoming a movie rumour site or a crystalball if you will. That is NOT the proposal. I do not believe that unsubstantiated rumours should be presented as fact. I am asking that the FACT that certain rumours have been presented in the press (etc) as facts should be presented and CLEARLY stated as such. It is the media's interest in the film/TV series and how this has been taken on by fans (the latter to a lesser extent as it will be harder to source appropriately) that I feel is missing from articles currently. I hope this makes more sense and clarifies my position and proposal a little more. AlanD 00:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a newspaper and weather forecasting site. Wait a week or month for the actual event to become history. Over at Wikinews there is a section for stories written for events which have not happened yet. I have one such story sitting in my local disk drives, not even uploaded yet, while waiting for the event to have happened. (SEWilco 02:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC))

I agree and that IS NOT what I am proposing. I don't know if I'm not being very clear or if... well I don't know what. I am not supporting the reporting of rumours as facts or that rumours should dominate. I am proposing that the reporting of rumours be mentioned in articles. We already mention controversy or differing points of view. I am saying that the reporting of rumours (and their subsequent proving or disproving) is part of the whole experience of a film/TV show and that it should be reported in a limited fashion. AlanD 18:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a problem with this proposal. If it were allowed, everyone may add prediction articles about every thing that may or may not happen in every movie. At least for elections, they clearly report the ratings of each candidate, but you can never know about films unless the producers officially say something.--Kylohk 21:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

For elections, a record of candidate "ratings" may be useful as a historical record, and it would be helpful if it were assembled as such whether the election has happened yet or not. Dated records should be maintained, not only the most recent results. (SEWilco 04:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC))

In the matter of entertainment and sports related subjects rumour is very much part of the business; ideas, scenarios, deals, signings. etc are often unofficially leaked to gain leverage or to guage opinion. It would, however, require scrupolous citing to industry publications rather than the gossip columns of daily newspapers or listings magazines. It is likely that there would be considerable debate over the validity of sources should this be considered as allowable. I think any wording should be very carefully considered since even quoting some other source will not always protect WP's reputation if a rumour was included which proved to be embarrassingly inaccurate. Any agreed policy would also require vigorous policing. It may be possible to to this, but is it practical? LessHeard vanU 23:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it if the rumours are utterly unfounded and embarressing then it would be no embarressment to us on here. I am not proposing we start predicting the future (as I have said numerous times) but that we report that the rumour is/was out there within x, y, z newspaper. If it turns out to be embarressingly false a) it is no reflection on us as we NEVER presented it as fact b) It would serve as a last reflection on the organisation that originally reported it. I agree it would require policing but I don't agree that the tabloids should be exempt. If the Sun, for example, runs a whole page article on an upcoming TV show with a screaming headline and an advert for the article on the front page AND then the rumour runs wild over the web (including lots of folks having to delete it from the wikipedia page for that show) then I AM NOT SUGGESTING that we cite the information as FACT. We cite the FACT that the Sun reported this information and that it spread as it did. Something along the lines of a "prepublicity" section, nothing big. We pare it down to the bone and keep it as simple and neutral as possible (possibly with a disclaimer above that section of the page (something that is done when folks are tying Doctor Who books into the TV show but in this case we'd be MUCH stronger and make it clear that this is the presentation of rumours not of facts). And, heck, if it turns out the Sun was embaressingly wrong then we, neutrally, say so. That is our role. AlanD 18:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There could be a potential problem with public perception if it became known that Wikipedia were to support your proposal. Firstly though, what 'pressure' are you experiencing in your current editing role in its current format - avoiding the inclusion of rumours and speculation? As an inexperienced editor, I certainly don't feel 'frustrated' in my contributions as you generalise in your proposal. Reporting on what exists now is the role of an online encyclopedia, and although there may be a number of fervent fans on the movie/film pages of this online encyclopedia, it is not an indication that it should degenerate the reporting standards in that area for the sake of them. That is largely the role of the dedicated fan sites and tabloid media.

There is also no clear (or compelling) benefit to the inclusion of this proposal. Rather, in the context of film, literature or similar works, it would hamper the ability to freely interpret and enjoy the work in one's own terms. The accuracy of the content would be overlaid with 'an interpretation' that may differ from the reader's, and contradict the 'gestalt' experience of the movie/film/book. You might object to someone else's rumour, speculation or subjective interpretation of a favourite TV character being bundled in with a wikipedia article on it. I know that I certainly would, and I would resent what I believe to be a fact-based online encyclopedia and its well-meaning contributors for attempting such.

Further, if the publishers took issue with the content or implications made in your proposed style of reporting, then the innocent addition of information could be legally complicated where they could find that your highly skilled and enthusiastic interest has inadvertently provided a spoiler to their next production.

The adoption of your proposal therefore poses more serious issues than the benefits it offers, though I do admire your conviction and choice of examples. -Cheers Mark Vincent- Andmark 17:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball - but I believe any verifiable fact from a reliable source ought to be a candidate for inclusion. For some topics, such as video games not yet released, this is our only source of information. The "just wait" argument is silly - readers want to know about the subject before this information is available. The price that Wikipedia pays for its rapid updates is the expectation that we'll cover new topics and keep our facts up-to-date over time. Dcoetzee 02:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

This would make Wikipedia less reliable. The "just wait" argument is not silly if we want Wikipedia to strive for accuracy. Movies/games/etc. often get rumors that never pan out, or the project dies early. We already have enough problems with rumored products (Shrek 4, for example) getting articles created even though there's nothing but vague rumors available to base an article on. Yes, we are expected to keep our facts up to date, which means they must be verifiable, not rumors. -- Kesh 04:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe I used the word "verifiable". The word "rumours" is loaded, but in the media is frequently used to refer merely to information that is not "officially released". Something conveyed by mere word of mouth from some unknown source clearly does not satisfy our standards of verifiability, but something based on, say, a analysis by a well-known industry insider, or leaked documents that have been traced to the publisher by an authority, might be considered "rumours" but are still directly verifiable and reliable if properly cited (i.e., an unofficial analysis ought to be referred to as such, and should have sufficient notability in its own right). Dcoetzee 06:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Extension to dispute resolution: Supervision process

This relates to a problem that's been on my mind a great deal the last year, since I first came across a certain banned editor....

I've been looking at a kind of serious article dispute that's sadly not uncommon, and where (for various reasons) current dispute resolution processes don't work well, or quickly enough. A number of articles are train-wrecked by this scenario, and a number of positive editors driven away.

The basic notion would address situations where a period of editorial supervision is better suited, rather than mediation or arbitration. These situations happen, and WP:DR doesn't handle it well right now. When they do, a disproportionate amount of damage is done to the project and to its editors. In some cases, I think we need a dispute resolution avenue that doesn't need to go to arbcom, that's supervisory rather than judicial (somewhat like Mentorship), and which is accessible much earlier on as one of many dispute options.

Unlike other interventions, the intervention here would be to enforce the establishment of good editorship, in an environment where AGF cannot be assumed, and create a more level playing field for a neutral and objective approach to become established by editors who are prepared to respect Wikipedia editing policy. Evidence of appropriateness would be required for acceptance, and it would not be accepted if mediation or arbitration was in progress.

In this sense supervision would parallel mediation; both take place over a medium period of time, but where RfM requires and assumes good faith, supervision is explicitly designed for disputes where good faith is dubious or not to be assumed. Where mediation looks to editors to understand policy and work together, supervision addresses directly editors who persistently refuse to edit in a policy-compliant manner.

I might be stepping into a minefeild, but I think a page creators should have the right to request major revisions be discussed before making. A tag could be put on the page "Mod", and when revising people would copy that section to the discussion page, and then show the proposed changes such that changes show the original section and the proposed changes, then a discussion can occur about accuracy, referencing, etc, before the page was added. If the Talk:"section name" is the same as the Main page:"Section name" then a tag could automatically appear in the main page "section under proposed revisions see:link to discussion page. If the page creator desires not to moderate then he/she could leave it open for admistrator discretion.

See Article supervision proposal (further notes on its talk page). Views welcomed. Looking to see whether others have noticed similar situations, and would support this as a useful option and approach, within existing dispute resolution processes. Examples available.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 09:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

CSD R2

WP:CSD#R2 was amended, per a discussion at WT:CSD#CSD R2. The template, Template:db-r2 was also amended to comply with the new version of CSD R2. Cool Blue^{talk to me} 16:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Score! I thought these guys never got changed... Shalom ^Hello 17:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Apparently they don't - or at least not for long. It's been reverted, but who knows how long that will last? Confusing Manifestation 02:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Titles of pages disambiguating abbreviations

Is there any general advice for merging of disambig pages for abbreviations, for example BAM was merged with Bam (taken from the User:Cmh/List of page titles with multiple capitalizations list) and BAM now redirects to Bam. This seems sensible to me... A topic which has been discussed (Without a clear outcome) is ADA and Ada. Would it be sensible to merge these?? It seems confusing to have 2 different pages with significant overlap. Perhaps if they were to be merged, ADA could point to the abbreviations section of Ada. Also, if these should be merged, which one should be the main article, ADA or Ada. Generally Ada would seem to be the sensible title (as in the example above), but how about disambig pages such as TFT which should then be called Tft with a redirect from TFT. My apologies if this has been discussed here or elsewhere, but I couldn't find any information on it... NPalmius 01:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Here, the difference between initialisms and actual words is important. It makes sense to me that if a series of characters (for example, X-Y-Z) has significantly more words with that meaning than words that stand for it, XYZ should redirect to Xyz. If XYZ is used much more frequently as an initialism (with maybe only one or two words Xyz), Xyz should redirect to XYZ, and all disambiguation should be included at the latter page. If the quantities are about equal, I would think that having two separate disambiguation pages with links to each other is the best course of action. This is merely what editorially makes sense to me, but not necessarily practice. Gracenotes^T § 07:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hm. The complications probably happen when there is an entity called "XYZ", where that entity is not an acronym for anything. In that case, assuming that both XYZ and Xyz exist as disambiguation pages (based on the circumstances above), I would probably list it on the XYZ page. It seems like case-by-case is the best way to work this out. Gracenotes^T § 07:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Trusted Sources

I'm not sure where to post this, so let me start by doing it here before I find a more appropriate platform.

I have very mixed feelings about the anonymous nature of many Wikipedia "admins." Now, a few years ago, many anonymous contributors would post completely bogus stories to Wikipedia, making it very unreliable. These days, administrators tend to clean up that kind of stuff pretty quickly. However, a number of us have had news deleted because we were viewed to not have a reliable source.

The case in point - the death of science fiction writer <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Saberhagen">Fred Saberhagen</a>.

I first read about Fred's death on July 2 from a source I view to be extremely reliable - the obits discussion list on SFF.NET (http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=xover&group=sff.discuss.obituaries&from=-10). Just about everyone who posts their posts under their real names. I know just about everyone who posts there. In the many years of this group's existence, I don't think there's been one rumor planted on the list. When Harlan Ellison reports the news of a death or an illness, I don't think it's ever been shown to be false, and it was Harlan's Web site where the news of Fred's death first broke. Again, this list is not like, say, the USENET group alt.obituaries where many people post anonymous drivel. This is a list where many of the participants are known to one another.

So since I trust the information in the sff.discuss.obituaries group, I immediately added information about Fred's death to <a href="http://www.deadpeople.info">Dead People Server</a> (a site I maintain), and attempted to add it to Wikipedia. I've had an account on Wikipedia for a while, and make occasional updates. I do so under my own name, and not under a pseudonym.

I admit I failed to include a referential link when I first added information about Fred's death, but then added a link back to the sff.discuss.obituaries group. And then, I had other things to do, so I didn't spend much time watching Fred's Wikipedia page.

It turned out my editing of Fred's death was edited by some Wikipedia admin using the name of Quatloo. When John Scalzi tried to update the record later, Quatloo deleted John's edits as well.

Now, when two people make the same edit both using their own name, you'd think someone at Wikipedia would catch on. It took hours for Fred's death to be properly noted due to the stubbornness of one pseudononymous Wikipedia admin. Lauriemann 16:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• You've certainly identified a problem, but it's not in my opinion a solvable problem. It happens, and as I'm sure you'd agree, when it comes to whether someone is dead or not it's usually best to use the best sources we can. Your point about two people adding something using their real names is understandable, but has another side. It could be one person using two false names. Really, what this problem is to do with is simply scaleability issues with Wikipedia. We've all got to remember we're an encyclopedia; we shouldn't be reporting information, we should be summarising it. Our job isn't to scoop newspapers and the like. Yes, our nature allows us to be more responsive to events, but when all is said and done, a few hours of not reporting a fact until we verify it isn't that bad. Some books can be wrong for years. I don't really see any value in criticising another user for either appearing stubborn, or for using a psudonym. Us admins get so much thrown at us it is no wonder most choose to adopt some sort of anonymity. To be honest, it looks like a lot of the problems here happened because nobody communicated with each other properly. It looks like a lot of people got their backs up during that discussion, which might have been solved had people perhaps kept their heads. From my point of view, a man died here. Arguing over the speed with which Wikipedia reports it seems somehow disrespectful. Steve block Talk 17:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Well, to the best of my knowledge, my Wikipedia account has never been hacked. I've never posted anything that wasn't a fact. I can't speak for John Scalzi, but I suspect he wouldn't post anything that wasn't true here either. So does that mean that no one can be trusted, other than pseudononymous Wikipedia admins? This is why we're so frustrated.Lauriemann 18:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
    • (Edited to say: My tone seems a little abrupt here, it's not intended. Apologies.) I'm not really sure what you are asking for. You had a dispute. It got resolved. Welcome to Wikipedia. You seem to be failing to consider the other side of the fence. Someone looks at a page and sees it states that the subject has died. There is no source so they remove it. Then someone adds it, and provides a source but the source provided doesn't verify the claim made, so they remove it again. That's the wikipedia way. I'm not sure that you're following my argument regarding pseudonymity either. I have no way of knowing what your real name is, just as you have no way of knowing what mine is. Nor do we happen to have a User:John Scalzi, and even if we did, it could be John Smith editing as John Scalzi. It could be John Smith editing as Laurie Mann, John Scalzi, Steve Block and John Smith. People actually do create a large number of accounts in order to disrupt Wikipedia. Those actions in part frame our policies and our actions. Our names aren't important, our sources are. Steve block Talk 19:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
      • As just a small point of order, I, John Scalzi, have just taken the John Scalzi user name so it can not be used as people posing as me. So that's sorted. Thanks, Steve Block. John_Scalzi

• • The concept of "trusted source" needs to be gone into better. Laurie's source here was one of the best sources there could be for this information. Yet by Wikipedia standards, it's not a good source. Sources, in the end, always come down to people. Dd-b 17:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I think Laurie already admitted not listing a source in the first instance, which contributed to the situation. Reliability of sources pretty much comes down to editorial judgement, ultimately to consensus. Steve block Talk 19:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
      • However, I quickly realized my mistake, and added a link back to the sff obits list within five minutes of my initial post.Lauriemann 10:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
• While I said some on this on Scalzi's blog, in the context of wikipedia, I'm also going to bring up the subject of Pleasantville, aka Kathryn Cramer. Wikipedia has had extensive issues with Kathryn making massive edits to the pages of science fiction writers, and backing it up with the argument that her brain, personally, is a valid source, and if she knows it and its true, then its ok to put it in the article. This is ironic, because The New York Review of Science Fiction would actually be an acceptable source. Likewise, there is lots of stuff I know, after 20 years in fandom, some minor writing success (nothing but journalism reported, but lots of pros like my work) that I can't express; even if I published it to my site, no one knows who I am.

Within Science Fiction articles, especially those involving the writers, we should absolutely be accepting more Primary sources, when the primary source is reasonable. Our own definition of 'Primary Source' does, to me, fully include Harlan Ellison in this case; he's a well known author, he controls his own site (ie, it wasn't someone posting to another site using his name), and he was directly contacted by the family, as a friend, and with the intent and knowledge that most people would get the information through him. Stuff about Joel Siegel's death by Roger Ebert was perfectly acceptable, stuff about Fred Saberhagen's death by Harlan Ellison is of the same quality. The definition of primary source on Wikipedia is 'Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about.' Part of the problem is too many editors forget that while COI is important to avoid, if the subject is completely outside of their interest (and I don't see that the editor in question has done any SF editing), you're also not as good a judge of what is a valid primary source, and it gets reduced to (often incorrect) guideline interpretation. --Thespian 18:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The nature of Wikipedia means our names aren't enough alone to be able to add information. It needs to be verified. This has long been a policy and should be nothing new. Look, you're all sitting here stating this is a reliable source because the information was true. You aren't considering the possibility that it wasn't. That maybe there are instances where people actually pretend to make this stuff up. Reliability of sources is a judgement issue, it's easy to say that Harlan Ellison stating something on a message board is a reliable source, but we've got to be able to verify that it is in fact Harlan Ellison saying it. Yes, I'd be inclined to accept it as a source after I'd given it the once over, but we have somewhat stringent policies when it comes to biographies of living people, and not everyone is aware of who Harlan Ellison is or what makes him a reliable source. Like I say, what's better; that we discuss in a calm manner and reach a consensus, or that we get our backs up and argue? Is it better that material is challenged, or is it better that anyone can add anything? Yes, there are some issues over primary sourced material, but that misses the point a little bit. The internet is such a wonderful resource in that anyone can publish anything. You state that you could do that but the issue is that no-one knows who you are. That same issue applies on Wikipedia; no-one knows who you are. My advice is to publish it on a blog; there at least you will be able to allow no-one to remove it, and there at least someone may utilise it so that it can then be utilised on Wikipedia. Maybe enough of you could get together to form something that eventually does become a reliable source in its own right. A number of websites regarding comics are now regularly cited by scholars, let alone Wikipedia. But i think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that this is merely a content dispute, one which sadly involves a man's death. Steve block Talk 19:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Please note, I did specify Harlan's *site*, and said specifically, he controls his own site (ie, it wasn't someone posting to another site using his name). You're starting your argument talking about him saying something on a message board (and is that really Harlan, etc), but that isn't the source; a message board is never a good source, but Harlan Ellison is noted in this field, just as much as Roger Ebert is in his (he's not 'just anyone', the way I would be). Your argument here is going off in a pile of different directions, and very few of them are actually coming from my entry there, which I think means you're bringing something else in here. I'm not actually saying 'accept everything' (in point, John Scalzi's blog is seriously not an RS), but I am saying that rigid adherence to guidelines as if they are rules is to our detriment; especially in a case like this where Ellison absolutely counts as a primary source for this information, but an editor was insisting, contrary to our own definition of 'Primary Source', that he couldn't be one.--Thespian 19:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you missed the part where I said that I would probably have allowed it as a source. I apologise for calling it a message board instead of a personal website. To address you personally, the policy on biographies of living people isn't a guideline, it's a policy. Regarding that policy, Ellison doesn't count as a reliable source per the text quoted below. Yes, there are probably issues with that policy, but that policy needs rigid adherence for what is considered very good reasons. I'm not going to disagree with you, but I think you're missing the nub of my argument towards you; not everyone will be aware of who Harlan Ellison is. I know enough that I'd let Ellison pass, but does that mean the person who doesn't and so removes the info, acting in good faith, should be treated as disruptive? Are our policies wrong because in rare occasions they have a disputable effect? Is Wikipedia supposed to be first of the bat with breaking news? It's easy to say that the policies are to our detriment in this instance, but the reason they exist is for the many others where they don't act to our detriment. Like I say, in this case the editor in question was arguing, correctly, that WP:BLP trumps our own definition of 'Primary Source'. What was needed was cool heads and a discussion that WP:IAR might apply. Yes, this is reflects badly on the policy, but to be honest, it reflects worse on most of the participants. Sat what you like about Quatloo, to his credit as soon as he removed the info he posted on the article talk page requesting a source. Things went downhill pretty much from the first reply to that request. Had everyone been civil, who knows if we'd be here now discussing this? I concede the possibility Quatloo clove to close to the policy, but I would hope that people could consider it understandable. Everyone seems to be highlighting this instance as if it was a matter of life and death as to whether we took Ellison's word or not in this instance. To quote the talk page, "Saberhagen remains dead". Does our recording it make it any truer? Steve block Talk 19:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I know enough that I'd let Ellison pass, but does that mean the person who doesn't and so removes the info, acting in good faith, should be treated as disruptive? Actually (and this isn't just related to this subject; I generally stay out of SF because I'm unsure where my own COIs lie, as I count many pros among my friends, work in an SF bookstore, ete), I do. I *do* believe that editors who know nothing about a subject (and in this particular case, the editor doesn't have an SF-related edit in the last month) can be just as disruptive as those who are *too* passionate about the subject. I have great respect for editors who post to talk pages, "I am unsure about these two external links that were just added, but I am not able to assess them; I just copy edit and don't know the subject well. Can someone who knows more about the subject please examine them?" It's more frequent in the science articles, but I do feel that people should be as careful in other areas, when they find they're discounting things because of 'I've never heard of it' reasoning. Edits to subjects that you have 'No Previous Interest' in should be treated gingerly, because there's the danger of working against Wikipedia's goals because you have no way of assessing content or context. --Thespian 20:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

If you think someone acting in good faith is disruptive, then I'm not sure how to respond. I'm not sure I can follow your reasoning, because it seems based on a flawed position. If people both familiar and unfamiliar with an article's topic are unable to edit an article, how does it get written? If wikipedia is built through collaboration and discussing and building consensus, doesn't that behoove us to make our opinion heard, engage and help build the encyclopedia? Yes, I have a great respect for those editors who rather than act, query first. But Wikipedia is built on the be bold principle. Yes, it is very easy to criticise in this instance, but I think most definitlye your argument flounders on one point. You seem to be ignoring the position of our policy on living people, which like it or not mandates that people act as Quatloo did. This whole mess was caused because people saw Quatloo acting disruptively rather than in line with policy. Yes sometimes policy is an ass. I tend to just grin and bear it when that happens, because its an ass for a reason. I'll state my case and I'll argue it, and I'll stay polite and I'll engage in building a consensus, but I won't act against that consensus. That's disruptive. In fact, thinking about it, I'd argue the opposite; people who have no interest in the subject are probably the better editors for the article; they can eidt better for NPOV, better check that info matches the sources and they can better check that our policies are met. If someone removes info that is not sourced from an article and is considered disruptive for that action, Wikipedia is a poorer place. Steve block Talk 20:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's not 'interest' that is my problem; my issue is that people who are completely uninvolved in something need to be aware that being completely disconnected from the subject might also cause as many problems as the people who are so immersed in it. There are issues of not being able to see the forest for the trees, but you still need to be aware that there's a forest at all to write about it. Do you really want to read articles on SF by people who don't know who Harlan Ellison is? I don't want Ellison editing his own article, but likewise, I don't want editors discarding information because they don't know enough about the subject, sources, community, etc., to be able to draw from all aspects of it and create an NPOV article. I'm arguing that people who are neither completely detached from s subject or completely passionate about it are the best editors in these cases. By this standard, neither Scalzi nor Quatloo was the best editor for this information, and since they were coming at it from two completely different paradigms (Scalzi immersed in the field, Quatloo just repeating himself about the rules), they clashed, in a way that (judging from the tone of our discussion here), you and I, as more moderates in the area (we know a bit about it, but aren't in the field professionally or completely detached from it) wouldn't have done. --Thespian 20:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• Also of relevance is the principles established in this recent arbitration case Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Principles. Note principle 3, which states that In cases where the appropriateness of material regarding a living person is questioned, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm." In practice, this means that such material should be removed until a decision to include it is reached, rather than being included until a decision to remove it is reached. I don't raise this to comment on the rightness of our policy, but only to ask that the people who were so quick to attack perhaps appraise themselves fully of why this situation occurred. Steve block Talk 20:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Full agreement; also, I wrote the story in this week's Signpost on the vandalism and media reaction of Chris Benoit; I spent a lot of the research time shaking my head at the talking heads discussing OMG SOMEONE KNEW SHE WAS DEAD BEFORE THE POLICE DID!, so I know that there's extra special crunchy good reasons to be careful about deaths right now. Not that Saberhagen's sad but inevitable passing at 77 is going to get nearly the play of a wrestling champeen and his hot babe wife double murder suicide. We get death hoax crap constantly. There are just other things about this subject that have concerned me, and since Laurie brought it up, I chimed in. --Thespian 20:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• Also, I think there's points being missed here. Wikipedia shouldn't be the first to report something. I'm missing why it is so important that this fact be added so swiftly to the article. There hasn't been an explanation as to why we couldn't wait for a source which meets our polcies. And also, this wasn't an incident in which it was the stubbornness of an admin held things up. It was an action in which a lot of people acted not in keeping with our policies, and where the one person who did is being criticised. We have a stringent policy on articles related to living people for a reason. I'm sure people can all appreciate what that reason is. Part of that policy states, in bold letters, that "Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used". Yes, that's a very strong line to draw, but it has been drawn, and it was drawn by the consensus of many editors over the last eighteen months. Quatloo wasn't acting alone, he had the voices of all the people who have affirmed that policy behind him. I think you have raised important questions, but I think it is unfair to blame one admin user for the fact that our policies are, by definition, inflexible in some regards. Steve block Talk 19:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
• Besides which, Quatloo isn't even an admin. (sob!) I take it nobody thought to check the list of users before they jumped to conclusions, since I fail to see anywhere where Quatloo claimed to be an admin? Steve block Talk 19:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Laurie referred to him as an admin, but I haven't. Actually, I suspect an admin would have handled this much better; my impression of most admins is they're pretty helpful, and for something like this would have done the 5 minutes of work to bring the cite to speed instead of just reverting repeatedly and arguing with John Scalzi over it for an hour ;-) --Thespian 20:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

My comment wasn't aimed at you, hence the revised indent. As to how admins would have handled it, the edit before Quatloo's first was made by an admin, and it didn't help much. I don't think anyone comes out of the mess smelling of roses, and as I say above, no-one has as yet managed to explain the issue with regards the timeliness of Wikipedia actually recording the death. Steve block Talk 20:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

We have, in some ways, wound up with something of a circular argument here. Some of us, and I'd include myself in this, would like to be a little more active in Wikipedia. We have the time, we have the expertise, we think Wikipedia is basically a good idea. We know some of the problems Wikipedia has had in the past, and the fact that some of the Wikipedia contributors are trying to correct them is a fine thing. But, unfortunately, trying to be more vigilant about keeping bad information out, it means that good information is also kept out. I understand that Wikipedia was not meant to be a news site, but it is becoming one. If Wikipedia management doesn't want breaking news on the site, they should rethink their home page, which has had a news headlines area for something like two years, if not longer. The fact that breaking news is now stressed on the home page gives people the impression that Wikipedia would like accurate, breaking news in the articles themselves. So it goes back to the dilemna that people like John and I have - should we even bother to update information that we know to be correct when a random, pseudonymous person can remove because we haven't used a source that Wikipedia trusts? We trust these other sites, and we're willing to vouch for the sites. Regular Wikipedia contributors can't know everything. As I've pointed out above, I generally don't trust news of a death that breaks on alt.obituaries, particularly when a person hiding behind a pseudonym posts it. But I know when news of a death hits sff.discuss.obituaries, it's almost always accurate because anyone hoaxing there would be slammed really fast. While I can't claim utter expertise in the issue of "trusted sources," I've been maintaining Dead People Server for over 10 years, and am reasonably sure I've never been hoaxed. I've posted wrong information at least twice that I'm aware of, but I'm usually pretty careful about how I update my site. Steve, I want to thank you for your responses. I may not agree with everything you've been saying but I appreciate the time you've been taking with this issue. And if Quatloo isn't an admin, I guess that's something of a relief, but...Lauriemann 10:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you, too. My problem is that I don't ultimately disagree too much, it's just that I've been here long enough to have seen the path Wikipedia has taken. It used to be that the way you want it to work was how it worked, you'd add the death to the article, and Wikipedia was small enough that people would know that if Laurie added it then it was pretty much right, and Wikipedia was also small enough that if it got it wrong it didn't matter, it was just this upstart online encyclopedia that wasn't a threat to anyone, no-one took seriously and it could be excused for being wrong. And then Wikipedia became big. And now no-one knows who Laurie is, and ultimately no-one can care who Laurie is, because wider issues have taken precedence. Maybe a better way to go in the future would be to update Dead People Server and then add it to Wikipedia and cite that as a source, but I still don't know if that'd beat a particular reading of policy. You make a good point about how we cover the news, and that caused a lot of controversy when it was introduced. I used to update the British news page, and even back then we had to source a news source or we couldn't add anything. Have you checked out n:Wikinews, they allow original reporting, maybe that'd suit you better? I think for me and Wikipedia nowadays, I don't get too invested anymore; I add my info, give it the best source I can find and let it go. I'll make my best arguments, but at some point these days you have to be prepared to walk away, because otherwise it does grind you down. I think Wikipedia has been a victim of its success for about 18 months now. It's become too much like a game to some people. In all honesty, I don't have an answer for you Laurie. The whole thing is tangled up in what Thespian notes as being people's investment in the issues. It's too hard now for people to simply agree for the sake of an argument. Still, the whole affair has given more grist to the bloggers who feel that Wikipedia sucks... Steve block Talk 12:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Ban anonymous ip editing

For the past two years or so, I've noticed less and less ip users contribute healthily to the English Wikipedia. I can speak for myself; I use to be an ip user for a long while and learned of a lot since then, made a few mistakes, and learned from them. What made me come here was this discussion and after I read this section weeks ago (actually months have passed since) I came to the conclusion that ips are more dangerous than established users. For one, I have yet to see several ip users as much as established users banned; obviously, ips are normally not banned because many people may share the same ISP and all. Thanks to Centrx updating me with this here, my theory is supported — although I figured that anyways my theory was true to begin with. Now, I know many anonymous edits from ips are helpful — but as for the majority, they are not, and it is quite burdensome to have to go through and "rv" the usual ip vandal. Furthermore, those that experiment the Wikipedia as an ip (usually unknowing that a "You have new messages (last change)" can appear) is really, should one say, annoying? The person could be confused, or perhap, the person in another part of the room on their computer would say, "Huh, why did I get this message?" although that person didn't do anything, he/she will still be welcomed, or warned, etc. My point in all this is that someone (who happens to share an ip with a "vandal", whatever the case) normally looking at the English Wikipedia doesn't want to be bothered by a "You have new messages (last change)" even though that one person, or others, is innocent of any act they have done.

Does this make any sense? Lord Sesshomaru

By the way, perhaps an ifinite attractive message (of course, with the dismiss button) at the top corner on each article of this site saying something in the likes of "Click here to create an account/become a Wikipedian" would attract the attention of anybody. You wouldn't need to edit the encyclopedia as an ip user to figure that out. Lord Sesshomaru

• This makes perfect sense. I had not thought of the warning message poppping up to innocent users. I have advocated the ban for a while with one reservation, which is that we might lose some people who wade into editing slowly. Also, there could be a fear of signing up for something that is unknown and could possibly generate more spam in your life. Once people get hooked on WP, they will gladly sign up. But over all I agree that anonymous ip editing needs to go. --Kevin Murray 18:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

True story: it happened to me. My younger brother edited Wikipedia as ip in his room and I was lefted recieving the welcomings and other messages on my computer in my room. Thank god he moved out. Basically I took over, per say. Really, anonymous editing isn't a good thing, it must be banned. Any current ip users are welcome to create an account (which grants more benefits) and (usurp?) what they have on their ip pages to the new account. Lord Sesshomaru

I think this is a bad idea, and please look here and here to see why. Bjelleklang - talk Bug Me 19:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• I've read a study somewhere that states although 97% of vandals are IPs, over 70% of IP edits are constructive. So it's a double edged sword, you may seem to root out most vandals, but a lot of innocents will also be blocked. Also, there is a chance that those IPs would just start many Vandal only accounts and make it difficult for the admins to handle.--Kylohk 19:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Obviously those useful IP editors aren't interested in the same things I am. Nowhere near 70% of anonymous edits to the articles on my watchlist are constructive. Of those (probably a minority in the first place) that aren't straightforward wilful vandalism, the vast majority are illiterate or just plain incorrect. -- Necrothesp 20:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Articles about society and popular subjects have a lot of IP vandalism. Articles about mathematics, science, history, etc. have a lot of good IP contributions. Most of the articles on the list on your user page appear to simply have no IP edits at all. —Centrx→talk • 20:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

What about the endless AOL and school ips that usually damage the community? What about the fact that someone could get blocked just for sharing the same ISP with others within the same ip range? With all due respect, wouldn't you hate for that "You have new message(s)" box appear on your screen and suddenly find that you had been blocked for vandalism just because someone is sharing the ip? Or worse, your ip is banned because of that someone you don't even know? Though you yourself didn't even edit as ip user, the possibility that someone else can is very much likely. Hence, anonymous edits have to really be banned to prevent any of this from happening. Lord Sesshomaru

From what I've heard, many ips change like from every day to every 15 min. It is a hell of a lot harder to track down an ip vandal, in this case, then it is to track down an account that will not change every whatever. Multiple accounts used for things like sockpuppetry, etc., are commonly obvious to notice. Ips are the ones that can change in this manner and that's frightening right there. 97% of vandals are IPs, over 70% of IP edits are constructive. How is this sentence meaning to relate to a double-edged sword? Unfortunately, majority rules here. Lord Sesshomaru

Most IPs do not change frequently, and school IPs do not change at all. Vandalizing school IPs are blocked, which does not require prohibiting IP edits. —Centrx→talk • 20:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody, or hardly anybody, notices the good editing that anon/ip's do, which is why statistics need to be thoroughly tested. Yes, a great many ip's make a few vandal edits (usually on the higher traffic articles) and giggle at the other editors having to come in and revert them. A couple of hours, or even a couple of evenings, dumb entertainment. Usually they get tired of the game and find something else to amuse themselves. However in terms of quantity there are a few ip's/anons who contribute regularly and add in great content, which even out the vandals. If the ratio between vandal and good ip editors is 100 to 1 the amount of good work the 1 does out quantifies the 100 over one year. Do you really want to lose one years (plus) worth of good edits from one editor just so you don't have to revert the work of 100 idiots? LessHeard vanU 20:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Answering your lst question, yes that's a good trade. Good IP contributors often don't join because they don't have to. I don't think that forcing them to join will automatically cause them to quit. --Kevin Murray 20:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

By the same token, forcing a vandal to take 3 seconds to register is not going to prevent them from vandalizing. The only way to make a proposal like this effective is to force a waiting period for everyone before they can edit. —Centrx→talk • 20:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That might be the solution. Editing articles begins 24 hours after registration. --Kevin Murray 20:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I did the maths over at User:LessHeard_vanU#Anon ip editors have edit hours on their side. If we lose 1 editor to stop 99 vandals then WP is down 27% in quantity. My assumptions there may be argued over, but the formula works. LessHeard vanU 21:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we will eventually have to ban anonymous editing once we reach the tipping point where the benefits do not outweigh the costs. But apparently the people who actually study this show that point has not been reached. What we do need now, is a change to the semi-protection policy. Now, semi protection is only imposed when there is a high rate of vandalism, and then only for a short time. We need to protect pages that are IP vandal magnets permanently. Hopefully this will reduce vandalism by protecting the high value targets. But also it will relieve the burden on the editors who try to keep those articles clean. I have stopped watching some articles like Bald Eagle because of this nonsense. This will strike a better balance between allowing IP edits and banning them altogether. We only need to protect probably less than 1% of the total articles, so this should not discourage new users much at all. Dhaluza 20:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Though there are certain valid arguments for banning IP editing, your's doesn't make sense to me. You argue that it would be awful to find out your IP has been blocked from editing when it wasn't you who incurred the block, so the solution is to just block all IPs indiscriminately? Atropos 20:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are responding back at me Atropos, then yes. It isn't a bad idea, just have a big, attractive message at the top of this website that encourages people to create an account. As I said, you don't have to start out as an ip user to figure out how to edit. Of course, the possibility of being blocked/banned just because someone shares the ip of an innocent is preposterous. I believe the statistics are true; too many anons just vandalize for the hell of it and established users feel more comfort and vandalize less. Of course this is speculation, but rather intellectual speculation. Ips must be banned. Lord Sesshomaru

Foundation policy says no. That said, I think about 70% of anon edits are good faith edits (although some are not exactly of the greatest quality). I've encountered many anons who revert vandalism and many anons who source their statements. The other 30% is fairly easily revertable stuff given the number of RC patrollers. Sure, some vandalism gets through, but that's what's expected. Yes, 70%, based on some surveys that have been thrown around. Good faith edits are hard to come by and anons are a good source of them. After all, vandals do not necessarily stick to IPs. x42bn6 Talk Mess 21:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

people should be pragmatic about this. A complete ban of IP editing is not politically an option right now, but it is an option that we need to keep scrutinizing. We should not hand around statistics about how useful IP edits are that are long outdated (and were never very convincing to begin with). The pragmatic approach is long-term semiprotection. I believe it will become more and more "socially acceptable" to leave developed articles sprotected indefinitely. Many already are. With this option of selectively banning IPs from editing articles, we can make the required transition to a less IP-friendly Wikipedia without the tedium of having to revolutionize policy. dab (𒁳) 21:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This is my opinion in a nutshell. --Ghirla^-трёп- 21:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea that says we keep this under review. But banning of IP editting presently will lead to vandals creating accounts to vandalise still - we would just remove "casual" vandals and kids wanting to have some "fun." The serious vandals or issue-heads would simply register - we already have more than enough evidence of that on semi-protected articles. The idea is that anyone can edit Wikipedia, and we should keep as close to that principle as possible, which in my opinion a blanket ban would not. Rgds, - Trident13 22:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess ips shall continue editing the Wikipedia. I lose this one, heh. Lord Sesshomaru

I don't see this as a loss, but a primary step. However, I think that this change must come at the highest levels, and to affect such a change we need dialog. --Kevin Murray 00:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a perennial proposal, and is impossible to enact because it clashes with Foundation issues. Ability of anyone to edit articles without registering is a foundation issue (it's basically a principle of all WMF projects). As long as they're sponsoring us (ie, paying bills and other expenses) we live by their rules on certain things, editing without registering and NPOV are just two examples. -Royalguard11(Talk·Review Me!) 03:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

There's one argument for permitting IP edits which I haven't heard anywhere yet... Currently, the vast majority of vandalism, test edits and good-faith edits which are unencyclopaedic comes from anons who don't take the time to register. This way, we can easily filter the anons from the regular users. If account creation would be required, then it is much harder to see the difference between genuine users and vandals. Currently, most "innocent" vandals (i.e. people who don't really know much about wikipedia and think it's fun to replace a page sometime and see what happens) are IPs, and it should stay that way, for the sake of countering vandalism. SalaSkan 20:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• The entry barrier (registering) is low for the folks we want to be here. If somebody has too little time to register, cannot read the instructions or fears to be identified (and is too stupid to think of a non-identifying username), it's hardly a good contributor. On the other hand, vandalism takes time from contributors who could be writing new material. It can frustrate contributors and even discourage them from contributing. Would you add your text to a vandalized page? I don't think so. You would probably want to revert the vandalism first. But learning how to deal with vandalism is a higher entry barrier than registering! It requires interacting with other (potentially evil and cunning) users, which is not always easy option e.g. for a foreign math professor who would look up "dude" in a dictionary. Please don't just consider the changes made by IPs. Please consider the changes that could have been made if Wikipedia pages were in a good shape most of the time. Proski 01:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

By doing this people will not be able to try Wikipedia before they register, people will not want to get involved with something they cannot "Run!" right back out of, it is a lot like "try it before you buy it".  Tcrow777  talk 23:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tcrow777. IPs (as a whole) should not be banned just to prevent vandalism. I used to edit under an IP, then I switched to an account. After the troubles I had (namely having my password cracked and changed) I made a new account, one that is more serious. If I never had the chance to use an IP to edit (spelling errors and such) I would've used a Bugmenot account, and if that didn't exist (it doesn't), I wouldn't have given it a second glance. Rahk E✘[[ my disscussions | Who Is ]] 02:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I first heard about Wikipedia on ABC world news! Based on my original ideas of Wikipedia: if it was not for IP editing, I would not register on Wikipedia with a 1,000 foot pole.  Tcrow777  talk 02:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't pretend to know what percentage of IP edits are good or bad. What I do know is that a lot of the articles on my watchlist get vandalized a lot, and a surprising portion of that vandalism is reverted by IP editors. I see IPs pop up all the time fighting vandalism. Is more of the vandalism I see from IPs than registered accounts? I'd say so. (though I'm seeing a lot more newbie accounts doing vandalism than I used to) But they definitely have some very good merits, both in fighting vandalism, and also in good-faith edits to articles. Overall, I'd prefer to assume good faith, and not ban an entire group of editors, just because some of them are up to no good. Is there any reason they can't register? Nah. But I don't see why they should have to. Bladestorm 03:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bladestorm completely.  Tcrow777  talk 19:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Bladestorm. Tens of thousands of anonymous editors like myself will do our very best to justify your faith. 67.189.48.7 20:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use image template question

I happened across the template {{CartoonNetworkImageTag}} just now, and I was wondering if the template applies only to shows directly produced/created by Cartoon Network, or if this was to be construed as a blanket template to be used for every show broadcast on Cartoon Network. I ask because I am in the middle of updating all my uploaded fair use images, and having uploaded several from shows broadcast on Adult Swim, I would like to know if I can use this template as an additional fair use claim. For the record the shows I have uploaded pictures from are Fullmetal Alchemist, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, and several different Mobile Suit Gundam broadcasts on both Toonami and Adult Swim. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

From the template text: "created and/or published by Cartoon Network and/or Cartoon Network Studios or its assignees or by whatever company or corporation that produced said content and was (re)broadcast by Cartoon Network". My emphasis for highlighting purposes. Adrian M. H. 18:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

English-language sources should be given whenever possible

i currently have an issue with a user on Talk:Battle of Jenin due to a problematic translation to a newspaper article. this translation page is added with personal highly POV thoughts and unverifiable references in regards to the original article.

the user keeps stating that "English sources must be used, while in this case it is clearly a non reliable and unprofessional source that is also known as POV.

i suggest some statement be issued about such a case in the "Citing sources" article, so that issues like this would not repeat for other users.

p.s. a comment on the Talk:Battle of Jenin#gush shalom source, would be a generous act to help end this conflict. Jaakobou 22:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

I have just suggested a change to the criteria for speedy deletion that is rather small but also fairly fundamental.

To me, this says broad consensus needs to be reached, so talking about it here seems pretty much a requirement. — Coren ^(talk) 17:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Admins, by virtue of their having received the admin bit, are considered trusted members of the community. Requiring them to wait for somebody else, anybody else, to put a flag on an article before it can be deleted is unnecessary bureaucracy. If you disagree with an admin's deletion, there's always WP:DRV, and if you feel that a particular admin is making too many inappropriate deletions, there's always WP:RFC. Corvus cornix 18:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

No, actually, this has nothing to do with trust. It has to do with the fact that, despite attempts otherwise, CSD criteria are and will always be somewhat subjective. This is not a bad thing. Having the implicit exchanges "This is nonsense. — Yep." or "This doesn't have enough context — Meh; it's salvagable." is a good thing that does not imply lack of trust.

Wikipedia is based on consensus, and a consensus of one is meaningless. Mops and buckets, last I checked, do not confer infallibility; and "take it to DRV" seems to me much more bureaucratic than a simple double check. — Coren ^(talk) 18:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that, as is pretty much already happening, this entry on Village Pump be taken as a sort of broad notification, and all real discussion happen on the linked wp talk page; duplicating/forking discussion here won't help. But please, anyone interested, contribute to the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Slight fundamental change in policy?. SamBC 21:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

New policy proposal

This proposal has been rejected by the community.  Tcrow777  talk  02:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I've proposed a new policy at Wikipedia:Non-merit attacks. I'd like to see some consensus there. Thanks. Cool Bluetalk to me 01:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Sounds great, but I do have some problems with the following: Sexual orientation Gender identity (if it means being trans-sexual) Thank you!  Tcrow777  talk  02:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC) Reluctantly, I take that back.  Tcrow777  talk  02:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Swedish Letters in Defaultsorting

Swedish has 3 letters additional to the English alphabet. These are Å, Ä, and Ö. They are actual letters, not letters modified by diacritical marks or accents. In defaultsorting names starting with these letters, what is the Wikipedia policy? Should they be sorted by their correct spelling, or should these letters be replace with A, A, and O, so that they sort into the wrong place in the alphabet? DuncanHill 12:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Standard English practice is to fold all such letters back into the alphabetic place of the base letter; thus "Åland" sorts right after "Alan" and before "Alans". Note that even if you wanted some other, non-English sort order, there'd be technically no way to get it. By default, the Wikimedia software sorts all non-Ascii accented letters after the end of the alphabet. That happens to coincide with the Swedish convention in the case of "Å", but it certainly doesn't fit the native conventions in many other cases of non-English orthographies. Thus, the only way to get consistency is to specify a defaultsort string stripping off all diacritics: {{DEFAULTSORT:Aland}}. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

My point was that they are not diacritics but if that is policy then I suppose I will just have to live with people being listed in places I wouldn't exxpect to find them. Hey ho. DuncanHill 13:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that although they aren't diacritics in the Swedish alphabet, they are in the English alphabet, which is the alphabet (asciibet) the English Wikipedia uses for sorting. -- JHunterJ 13:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the main problem with this is that English and Swedish aren't the only languages used in names. Different languages (and I expect publishers) have different collation conventions, and it would be pretty much impossible to follow them all. Doing so would also be a problem for users who may not know that a given name is Swedish, or even if they do, what the Swedish order is. (I also foresee a problem with some names being sorted one way and others another, but that's not a long-term problem.) So, we should use one standard order for all names regardless of language. I think folding is probably the way to go, but I could be convinced that another solution would be better. — The Storm Surfer 02:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I do believe folding is what most English-speaking people would expect, and this is the English-language wikipedia after all. >Radiant< 07:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

They should be collated after Z (though native Swedish has no Z) over on se:, but here on en: they should be folded in, immediately after the lone letter if there is a conflict (if all three of the following existed, Åland should immediately follow Aland but precede Alanda). If there is a conflict between two accented characters, then we face the prospect of the universe destroying itself. 81.104.175.145 21:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Editing other people's comments...

So is it OK to edit another user's comments on talk pages and discussions just to correct spelling and grammar errors? I notice that a lot of wikipedians have terrible spellng and grammer problems. Gatorphat 02:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Spellng and grammer problems." No comment. Raymond Arritt 14:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Others.27_comments. Usually, the point of the message still gets across, no matter how poor the grammar or spelling. If it's really unclear, it's better to just ask what they meant. Sancho 02:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah but its freaking imbarrassing to have such iliterate comments strewn all over wikipedia. I think that "policy" needs to be recidned. It's an uttre imbarrassment. I mean like 20 per cent of the comments on the talk pages have major speling and grammer problems. Gatorphat 02:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

  That's human interaction for you. Discussion pages aren't supposed to produce encyclopedic content, only discussion: we don't need to worry about appearances. Sancho 03:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

  And don't forget that a great many of our contributors are not native English speakers, so please have a little patience. And I don't agree that it's an embarrassment to Wikipedia unless it's in an article or policy page. Talk pages are expected to be a little more conversational, and thus less than perfect. And yes, we get the ironie in your coments. -- Satori Son 03:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• It only seems polite to fix an obvious error or typo, but I can see a slippery slope there. --Kevin Murray 08:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

  I've seen people throw a ridiculous fit for the smallest things (see the talk page for one since-blocked troll's little spat), like the little alignment thing I just did in this edit. Personally, I say only correct someone's spelling when you have to decipher their post over a few minutes, never correct their grammar, and at least try to correct their formatting when they have no sense of how comments are indented. One thing I hate is when people just can't pick up on the indenting. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In general, it's the best idea just to leave others' comments alone. There may be exceptions to this (such as when people are disrupting a talk page by discussing totally off-topic stuff), but as to spelling corrections or poor grammar, just leave it. If nothing else, the fact that someone spells "you" as "u" and can't put together a coherent sentence gives a good idea how much (or little) weight should be accorded to their opinion. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 08:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

(cough)I presume that folk noticed that Gatorphat mis-spelt vatious worms in his konchreebushions, and mae bee induljeen in WP:POYNT? LessHeard vanU 12:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you shouldn't edit other editors' comments for spelling or grammar. Even if you mean well, it can be seen as condescending. You might also be inadvertently 'correcting' a perfectly acceptable regional spelling variation or local idiom. Worse still, you would run the risk of altering the meaning of the original comment. (If the reason for 'fixing' a comment is that it is hard to understand, it stands to reason that the 'fix' may actually be a misinterpretation of the original poster's intent.) Making 'repairs' to other editors' comments amounts to putting words in their mouths. They've signed the words that they typed; going and editing their signed remarks misleads subsequent readers about what was actually said, and by whom.

Far, far better is to ask for a clarification, or to state any assumptions that you make about a comment's intent when you reply. Restate the question in your own words with your own signature, if you'd like. Fix formatting (indents and such) where the original formatting is misleading (a leading space on a line, a missed colon in indenting a multiparagraph comment, etc.) but use a light hand. The one exception to the 'don't fix spelling' rule might be broken wikilinks, but only in cases where the poster's intent is absolutely and unquestionably obvious. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. The light hand philosophy is even stronger in situations where you're participating in the discussion already, rather than just reading through it. _{on the other hand, editing your OWN posts for spelling (like I just did on this one!) is okay} CredoFromStart ^talk 17:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• I for one perfer to rule with heavy hand, like Stalin. And in the future, just refer to me as "The 'Phat." Gatorphat 01:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Sometimes, when I am Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages, I may fix spelling. I may fix spelling in AfDs where it is clear that the contributor unintentionally misspelled the word. Much less often, I may fix spelling on an article talk page where it is clear that the contributor unintentionally misspelled the word and the discussion is six months or more old. I would advise against "fixing" user talk page posts. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 15:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but to illustrate what you're proposing 'Phat, I fixed the incorrect grammar I don't think you intended as part of the point you later made by intentionally making mistakes. You said: "So it is OK to...?" Which isn't a question by grammatical standards. Is it ok to fix this... is asking if it's acceptable to fix this, compared to It is ok to fix this... which is not asking anything. Anynobody 01:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It's probably not such a good idea, in that it will have a greater detriment (of upsetting people and causing meaningless quarrels) than actual benefit (there's lots of junk on talk pages anyway, but the encyclopedia is more important). >Radiant< 07:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Blocking policy/NLT alignment

Blocking policy states a reason Users may be blocked is by:

• making personal, professional or legal threats (including outside the Wikipedia site); but only NLT is a policy. I propose WP:NLT No Legal Threats be changed to WP:NT No Threats to include both personal and professional as well as legal threats. Anynobody 00:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Other threats are generally covered by WP:NPA. Legal threats get their own category, as they are not direct threats of harm, nor even a personal attack, in many cases, but must be dealt with seriously for... well, legal reasons. -- Kesh 01:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Unlike death threats. — The Storm Surfer 22:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
    • And bomb threats. — Andmark 02:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Policy to leave wikipedia

Where is the policy to leave wikipedia? What is the name of the page? Where an admin blanks your user page? I used it before but can't remember the name. 69.152.136.146 20:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

m:Right to vanish. Also see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, general criteria, number 7. Dcoetzee 20:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is awesome, yep, m:Right to vanish it is. Thanks. 69.152.136.146 20:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Article "signed"

Hello. I took a look at the DYK today, and found that in the main body (not the Talk Page) of one of the articles appeared the creator's name. Just wonder whether the policy has changed and one can now "sign" their creation. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I suspect this is done for compliance with the GFDL. It may be necessary in this case, but it's certainly not normal for articles. Λυδαcιτγ 03:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

And it is gone, since it is from the same person, there is no reason to include that. Prodego ^talk 03:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. But I don't understand your edit, which involves removing some of the content and the reference, and doubling one "Category". Cheers.--K.C. Tang 03:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I certainly did not intend to do that, fixed. Prodego ^talk 21:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)