Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 April 17

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April 17

Pronouncing "vehicle" like: "veer-cle" by rhotic English speakers.

Is it common? rare? existent?

I'm asking, because non-rhotic English speakers do pronoucne "vehicle" like "veer-cle", so maybe also rhotic English speakers do. Just like the word "colonel", prnounced like "kernel", both by non-rhotic English speakers and by rhotic English speakers.

However, perhaps "vehicle" is not pronounced like "veer-cle" by rhotic English speakers, just as they don't pronounce "idea" like "I dear", even though non-rhotic English speakers do.

To sum up: I'm asking if the case of "vehicle" is analogous, to the case of "colonel" (pronounced like "kernel" by all speakers), or to the case of "idea" (pronounced like "I dear" by non-rhotic English speakers only). 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 11:30, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You may want to read the Wikipedia article titled Linking and intrusive R. --Jayron32 12:12, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Correcting myself. Please don't read that article. Avoid it at all costs. My bad. I apologize for my continued wrongness. I will try to do better. I won't succeed, mind you, but I will try. --Jayron32 15:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

What's the pertinence? /iː_ə/ is not a typical environment for an intrusive R (and you would still have yet to explain why the /ə/ elides), and rhotic accents typically don't exhibit intrusive Rs. Nardog (talk) 13:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Check: Colonel, in rhotic English. 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 15:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I fail to see the pertinence of your reply as well. I was responding to Jayron32. Nardog (talk) 15:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You've claimed "rhotic accents typically don't exhibit intrusive Rs", so I mentioned the case of the word "colonel": Doesn't it contain a sort of an intrusive R, in rhotic English (yet not in non-rhotic English)? Admittedly, it's not the classic intrusive R, and that's why I've added "a sort of".

Anyway, I'm still asking, if the case of "vehicle" is analogous, to the case of "colonel" (pronounced like "kernel" both by non-rhotic English speakers and by rhotic English speakers), or to the case of "ideas" (pronounced like "I dears" by non-rhotic English speakers only). 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 15:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

No, /r/ in colonel existed long before non-rhoticity gained prestige, is not intervocalic so it's not intrusive, and is often absent in rhotic accents. Nardog (talk) 15:50, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

That's why I've admitted it's not a classic intrusive R, but only a "sort of". Anyway, how about my original question? If you are a General American speaker, you can easily answer it, can't you (if you are)? 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 15:56, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Our article Linking and intrusive R does not discuss whether any intrusive R exists in rhotic English. 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 15:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I know of no accent that has /r/ in vehicle. I think you've got it backwards: it's /iːə/ that merges with /ɪə/ in non-rhotic accents, through the processes John C. Wells calls "pre-schwa laxing" and "syllabicity loss". See Wells's Accents of English vol. 1, § 3.2. Nardog (talk) 16:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I have no idear where this thread is veering to but I'll try a hypothetical answer to the original question: I could think of a rhotic "veercle"-like pronunciation of 'vehicle' as a form of hypercorrection from a less prestigious non-rhotic accent to a more prestigious rhotic accent (something like Gershwin's [ɚstɚ] for 'oyster'), but frankly, I don't know if this ever actually happens. –Austronesier (talk) 16:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know, English has only one diphthong which ends with a schwa ə and which begins with a front-close vowel, e.g. in the word "idea"', whether this diphthong is /iːə/ in General American accent or /ɪə/ in RP, so I really don't know what you mean by "it's /iːə/ that merges with /ɪə/ in non-rhotic accents". Does John C. Wells mention any merger of the kind you've mentioned? If he does, does he give any example of this merger? 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 16:29, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

In my distinctly non-rhotic London-suburbs accent, there is no 'r' anywhere in 'vehicle'. It's 'veeacle'. Or possibly 'veeakw', depending on context (see register (sociolinguistics)). AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that non rhotic accents have no R followed by a consonant, is not expected to surprise anybody. That's why I've asked about rhotic accents only. 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 17:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

/iːə/ in General American is not a diphthong but two syllables, /iː.ə/. /ɪə/ in idea etc. in RP is a result of the merger of /iː.ə/ with /ɪə/, unlike /ɪə/ in near etc., which derives instead from /iːr/. Wells gives freer, truer, theory, brewery rhyming with dear, sure, dreary, jury, and be a, do a becoming homophonous with beer, dour on p. 240 (the lack of the CURE-FORCE merger is implied). Nardog (talk) 16:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Does he claim non-rhotic English did distinguish between "Idea" and "I dear" in some period? 2A06:C701:745F:A700:DC9F:33C8:C70F:8A4D (talk) 17:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Not really. He suspects that idea had already become disyllabic when non-rhoticity arose, as far as the prestige accent in England is concerned (pp. 220ff). Nardog (talk) 19:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

This general American respectfully denies at least half of Wells's alleged rhymes. —Tamfang (talk) 02:45, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course you do. Wells isn't "alleging" they rhyme in GA. Nardog (talk) 09:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Ah, misread. —Tamfang (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2023 (UTC)