Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 April 23

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April 23

Gojūon question

When, in Japanese, you need to order a list of things in romaji, do you use gojuon (as if they were written in kana), or Latin alphabetical order? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 12:22, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

If done in Romaji, it would be in alphabetical order. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 12:32, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Why do so many English military terms come from French ?

Here's a few:

• sortie

• sergeant

• redoubt

• reconnaissance

• materiel

• marshall

• lieutenant

• general

• ensign

• commodore

• colonel

• cadet

• brigadier

• admiral

StuRat (talk) 16:26, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

In his comments on lieutenant, Michael Quinion says, "Like other military words (army, captain, corporal, sergeant and soldier), lieutenant came into English from Old French after the Norman Conquest." That matches the reason why much English legal lingo is from French—the Normans brought over both their military and their legal systems. Deor (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

German has general from church Latin [1] so the sources for some terms could be multiple. Rmhermen (talk) 17:37, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

English has lots of words from "French", full stop. Not just legal/military. Blame the Normans. Very often when there are two words for the same/similar thing in English, one will be Anglo-Saxon, and one Norman in origin. Fgf10 (talk) 17:41, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but in many of these cases there is no native English (Anglo-Saxon) equivalent. This seems odd. StuRat (talk) 18:28, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Not only the Normans, another wave of French language infusion arrived with the émigrées during the French revolution. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:49, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there has been a steady influx of French into English almost right up to the present, but especially during the centuries between the Norman conquest and the end of the 19th century. The influx of French from about 1400 to about 1900 was not unique to English. In fact, all European languages, including Russian, borrowed heavily from French during this period, because French was the preeminent European language of diplomacy, science, mathematics, cuisine, high culture, and, until at least the Seven Years' War, of military thought. Marco polo (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

If somebody tried to make a Wikipedia then, it would have been in French, wouldn't it? WhisperToMe (talk) 18:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

It was the Lingua franca (actually scientific texts were published in Latin before the 18th century, so that would be a strong contender). Alansplodge (talk) 19:02, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Please tell me you did that on purpose;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Alansplodge (talk) 23:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Made my day! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify/nitpick a bit, Phil. Trans. Roy. Soc. claims to be "The world's first science journal" [2], and you can read Vol. 1, 1665, in English, e.g. this description of Hook's observations of Jupiter's Great Red Spot here [3]. Of course you are right that many publications were in Latin, but the Royal Society's influence was indeed present before the 18th century, and is part of why English is now the Lingua franca :)SemanticMantis (talk) 20:29, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Surely the present hegemony of English is more due to the global political, military, and economic dominance since about 1800 first of Britain then of the United States than to the Royal Society. Marco polo (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Well I did say "part." And I'd also argue that you can't completely separate the economic dominance for England from their scientific achievements (e.g. Newton's mint certainly had a large impact on English commercial prosperity), but mainly I just wanted to point out that the first peer-reviewed science journal was published in English, and we all have access to some of these fascinating early documents from the Age of Reason :) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:03, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I was thinking of Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica published in Latin in 1687, which is only 13 years shy of the 18th century. Alansplodge (talk) 23:16, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

For some seriously French military terminology, consult a treatise on fortification. See Banquette, Caponier, Coupure, Chemin de ronde, Enceinte, Lunette, Ravelin, Reduit, Tenaille, Terreplein, Tête-de-pont and Trace italienne. There are others, like Fausse braye that nobody has yet written an article about. I believe that this is due to one Sébastien Le Prestre de Vauban whose theories dominated the science of fortification in the West for the best part of two centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 19:27, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

England was conquered by the sort-of-French Normans, who were latter succeeded by the genuinely French Plantaginates. The net result was that for several hundred years, England was ruled by a French-speaking monarchy and aristocracy. Consequently, a lot of French words were introduced, particularly for subjects relating to law, government, warfare, and other things that the ruling classes concerned themselves with. 109.147.108.187 (talk) 22:41, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

There are very often three words for the same thing, from Anglo - Saxon, French and Latin. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 18:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Arabic question

Hi! What's the Arabic on this page? http://www.lycee-verdun.edu.lb/ - It's for Lycée Franco-Libanais Verdun

Also what is the Arabic for "Lycee Abdel Kader" (Abdel Kader High School) on this page? http://www.lak.edu.lb/

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

1) اللیسیه الفرنسیة اللبنانیة - فردان

2) لیسیه عبد القادر Omidinist (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again! WhisperToMe (talk) 18:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)