Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2019 May 2
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May 2 edit
Can intersex athletes compete as males? edit
Recently, there was the whole controversy regarding Caster Semenya and other intersex athletes. Basically, athletes who competed as female, but who (due to a genetic condition, NOT doping), had elevated Testosterone levels. This was seen as giving them an unfair advantage, and, in an understandably controversial move, the International Association of Athletics Federations demanded that such athletes would need to take testosterone-suppressing medication if they wished to compete.
Personally, if I was such an athlete, I would recoil at the idea of messing with my hormones in this manner, purely for athletic purposes - it's basically telling the athlete to engage in "reverse doping". So my question is this:
Under the current rules, can such an athlete (a female with elevated testosterone) who does not wish to artificially tinker with their hormones have an alternative option: competing as a male?
Yes, I'm well aware that a female athlete, even an intersex one with elevated testosterone, would struggle to be competitive against actual males - certainly at the elite level. (Though certain intersex conditions may well be an exception). But at the amateur level, there may well be athletes who would choose this option, if it were available. My question is, as the rules currently stand, can they do this?
NOTE: I am NOT asking for opinions on the moral and ethical aspects of the IAAF's decision. I'm simply asking what does the rulebook say? And I suppose also, is this an option which some intersex athletes might actually choose, if it was available? Eliyohub (talk) 10:35, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- In the United States, throughout sports, women have competed with men. Women have wrestled in men's wrestling in high school competitions. Women have played on men's basketball teams. Women have played in men's football at both high school and college levels. Women have played men's tennis. Women have competed with men in professional golf. I'm sure someone has a stink about it each time, but it has happened repeatedly from high school to professional sports levels. Also, the rule for testosterone checks and suppression was suspended in 2015. So, your premise that it is an active rule is a bit off. It may be reinstated, but it is, as of now, suspended. 68.115.219.139 (talk) 13:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- That isn't true. A new rule was put into place in 2018: [1]. Issued, 26 April 2018, and effective 1 November 2018, intersex athletes must take medications to lower their testosterone levels to below defined levels, and must submit to regular testing to prove they are maintaining proper hormone levels. --Jayron32 14:21, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- The guidelines from the 2015 IOC Consensus Meeting on Sex Reassignment and Hyperandrogenism [2] say "
To avoid discrimination, if not eligible for female competition the athlete should be eligible to compete in male competition.
" Nil Einne (talk) 11:30, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
- Then there was the case of high school wrestling in Texas this past season. A person (sorry I don’t recall the person’s name) was born genetically and physically female but was transitioning to male. As part of the transitioning, he was taking testosterone injections and so had very elevated testosterone levels compared to female wrestlers. He wanted to compete as a male, but the Texas sports authorities said he had to compete as the sex listed on his birth certificate (female). He won the female state championship in the relevant weight class. People got wildly upset about this, attacking him even though what he competed as was not what he wanted. Maybe someone can find the person’s name–I’m sure we would have an article about the case. Loraof (talk) 02:24, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
- His name is Mack Beggs. Loraof (talk) 16:48, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting because many organisations seem fairly unconcerned about about transgender men competing in the male category. The IOC for example per the earlier source ([3]): "
Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.
" USA gymnastics does require legal recognition and that surgery if it's desired is completed (and also that any hormone therapy is monitored by a doctor and not used to give an athletic advantage) [4], but compared to the policy for trans women which requires surgery it still seems relatively accepting. Nil Einne (talk) 13:25, 4 May 2019 (UTC)- It's because there is a belief that those born with female genitalia and with female genetics are at an athletic disadvantage against those who are born with male genitalia and have male genetics. Thus, those of the first group can compete against men is seen as fine, but those from the second group competing against the first is seen as an unfair advantage. Wikipedia has an article titled Sex verification in sports that covers some of the history of this. There have been controversial cases from the past which have influenced these attitudes, usually from intersex athletes who present as female. See, for examples, Stanisława Walasiewicz and Dora Ratjen. There was a pervasive belief that some unscrupulous athletes who could not compete against other males, would dress up like a female, in order to compete against weaker female athletes. I can't find a single example of this actually happening; the closest we have are examples like above, which are intersex people who have always presented as female, or in some cases trans males who used to present as females, but later got gender reassignment surgery to present as males (i.e. Andreas Krieger). There is the case of Renée Richards who is a trans female who used to compete as a male before her surgery. But in terms of someone who genuinely "cheated" (i.e. someone who identified as a male, but pretended to be female to compete against other females) I can't find a single example. Still, there was a pervasive belief that such people existed, and the intersex and transgender examples I gave here (among others) have fueled such misplaced fears. --Jayron32 13:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- Possibly your followup was just intended as a generally comment but in case it wasn't, as a quick note, I think I'm mostly aware of the reasons for the difference. My point when I said it's interesting is because it seems clear many other authorities would likely put minimal barriers for Mack Beggs competing in the male category because it's not something that concerns them for the reasons you mentioned and more. The only thing that is likely to concern them are any hormonal treatments. Yet clearly whoever is in charge of things in the Mack Beggs case don't feel the same. So it will be particularly interesting to hear their reason. However flawed or unsupported the reasoning for those supporting the current regulations for transwomen and intersex who identify as female, at least they have reasons which purport to relate to fairness to other competitors and it is clear some competitors are unhappy with less restrictive regulations for reasons that appear to be relate to perceived, accurate or not, performance-fairness. Nil Einne (talk) 16:33, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- It's because there is a belief that those born with female genitalia and with female genetics are at an athletic disadvantage against those who are born with male genitalia and have male genetics. Thus, those of the first group can compete against men is seen as fine, but those from the second group competing against the first is seen as an unfair advantage. Wikipedia has an article titled Sex verification in sports that covers some of the history of this. There have been controversial cases from the past which have influenced these attitudes, usually from intersex athletes who present as female. See, for examples, Stanisława Walasiewicz and Dora Ratjen. There was a pervasive belief that some unscrupulous athletes who could not compete against other males, would dress up like a female, in order to compete against weaker female athletes. I can't find a single example of this actually happening; the closest we have are examples like above, which are intersex people who have always presented as female, or in some cases trans males who used to present as females, but later got gender reassignment surgery to present as males (i.e. Andreas Krieger). There is the case of Renée Richards who is a trans female who used to compete as a male before her surgery. But in terms of someone who genuinely "cheated" (i.e. someone who identified as a male, but pretended to be female to compete against other females) I can't find a single example. Still, there was a pervasive belief that such people existed, and the intersex and transgender examples I gave here (among others) have fueled such misplaced fears. --Jayron32 13:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting because many organisations seem fairly unconcerned about about transgender men competing in the male category. The IOC for example per the earlier source ([3]): "