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The Red Badge of Courage edit

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I've listed this article for peer review because it was recently passed as a GA, and I plan on taking it to FAC at some time in the near future. Therefore, I'm especially interested in knowing what to do to bring it to FA-standards, but any comments or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks! María (habla conmigo) 19:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Lead edit

  • Currently, the lead uses very repetitive sentence structure, you may want to increase sentence variety, including length, and use of additional phrases, Sadads (talk) 14:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to WP:LEAD, the lead could have one more paragraph if you wish, I would suggest using it, and giving a little bit more detail about the plot and discussion of the legacy section and background,Sadads (talk) 14:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It could have one more paragraph, but I don't think it needs it. The Open Boat (FA) only has two lead paragraphs, and yet manages to succinctly summarize the article. An in depth plot summary is unnecessary, and the book's background and legacy is already mentioned. María (habla conmigo) 14:30, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, right now the lead make no mention of the legacy or it's inspiration for other works, which is one of the things that I feel is most missing, Sadads (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Background edit

  • "He would later relate that the first paragraphs came to him with "every word in place, every comma, every period fixed."" is very unclear, Sadads (talk) 14:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph is very sentimental, and should be reworked to be less praisy towards his approach, Sadads (talk) 14:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Plot edit

  • "Eighteen-year-old Henry Fleming joins the Union Army despite his mother's protests, becoming a private in the 304th New York Regiment." reads like the advertising blurb on the back cover of a novel. I would suggest starting the section with a comment which clearly establishes that this is a summary, not a active retelling (think more encyclopedic). There are many ways to do this for examples, see [[1]] or Night_(book)#Wiesel.27s_story_as_told_in_Night or even your own The_Open_Boat#Plot_summary, Sadads (talk) 14:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll see if I can make it less "advertising blurb". María (habla conmigo) 18:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Historical accuracy and inspiration edit

  • "the harrowing" sounds very dramatic and sensationalist, are you sure you aren't working for this guy's publisher? :P No, really, I think the biggest problem I have, having read this far, is that the language is incredibly oriented towards committing the reader to the opinion of the work with sensationalist phrasing. Good prose is exactly what we want for FAs, but sometimes you get to a point where it's rhetorically polished to the point of absurdity, Sadads (talk) 15:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed "harrowing", although I disagree with your sentiment. María (habla conmigo) 18:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Style and genre edit

  • "Some critics have explored the novel in terms of Christian allegory, pointing in particular to the dramatic death of Henry Fleming's friend, Jim Conklin. Crane biographer John Berryman was one of the first critics to interpret the novel as a modern wasteland through which the protagonist plays the role of an Everyman. Still others read the novel as having a Naturalist structure, comparing the work to those by Theodore Dreiser, Frank Norris and Jack London.[34]" This quote leads me desperately curious to what extent they explored these allegories and structures. Is it possible to do a subsection covering how they do this, esp. with the Christian allegory. If there are multiple critics that cover each approach this shouldn't be to hard to really expand on, Sadads (talk) 15:16, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • This can be expanded, although I don't think it requires as much as a subsection. It's impossible to cover every facet of criticism, and most modern critics disagree with those who originally saw a Christ allegory in the 60s, etc. María (habla conmigo) 18:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's very unclear how this connection could be made, especially if you are communicating to a lay audience. Additionally, these comments immediately intrigued me, but I feel that the value of commenting on that type of analysis is communicating a basic understanding of how they approached it, not ignoring it in favor of newer critics opinions. If new critics do disagree strongly with such interpretations this too must also be brought up, or you are ignoring a significant portion of the scholarly discussion. I now have serious doubts in the breadth of scholarship which you approached in writing the article, if you have consciously chosen to omit opinions or omit comparing these opinions to contemporary opinions, Sadads (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I never said the article is complete. I did, however, say this particular thought could be expanded, and I could very well do so according to the scholarship which is available. Thanks for the suggestion. Again, however, that small tidbit about the Christ allegory does not require a subsection. What you must understand is that there are literally hundreds of ways to read this particular novel. There are dozens of possible allegories, themes, motifs, etc. that have been written about, and to dedicate a subsection to one allegory in particular, over the many others, goes against WP:UNDUE. Please refrain from making assumptions about my intentions, however. I've written eleven Featured Articles, so I believe I kind of know what I'm doing. María (habla conmigo) 22:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Themes edit

  • " enlightened identity" is this really the term you want to use? Enlightened has a myriad of connotations, many of them very religious, which don't really make sense in this case. You may need more content on if the existential thoughts are actually beneficial or if they simply are existential? I think the assumption being made here is that they in fact elevate Fleming mentally, however their is no context for individuals unfamiliar with the work itself. Also, identity has some multifaceted connotations as well which show both physical and mental transformation as well as deep seated personality changes. Please consider the wording, Sadads (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will clarify the meaning of "enlightened identity". María (habla conmigo) 18:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Critic William B. Dillingham also noted the novel's heroism paradox, especially in terms of the introspective Henry's lapse into unreasoning self-abandon in the second half of the book, stating that "in order to be courageous, a man in time of physical strife must abandon the highest of his human facilities, reason and imagination, and act instinctively, even animalistically." excedingly long sentence, consider breaking up, Sadads (talk) 15:29, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy edit

  • Because IMDB is a user created content site, I would not consider it a reliable source and believe that it will get hit really hard in FAC, Sadads (talk) 15:36, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a non-issue, as the IMDb links are only provided to prove the films exist. This is common. María (habla conmigo) 18:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note from nominator

I would very much appreciate further PR comments from someone experienced with FAC. María (habla conmigo) 18:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Ruhrfisch comments: This looks quite good to me (although I have not read the novel in question, so I cannot vouch for the article's comprehensiveness). I have some suggestions for improvement, mostly nit-picks. Thanks for another nicely done article on an (the) important work by Crane.

Lead

  • It seems odd that the painting of Crane is only available in black and white - I did a Google image search and did not see any color versions. Since it is a painting from 1894, it is PD in the US and any photos of it would also be PD in the US. Do any of the books on Crane have the image in color (so that it could be scanned for use here)?
  • It's strange, but I don't remember seeing a color version of the painting. In print and online, they all seem to be in black and white, and I don't know who holds the original. I'll make an effort to check through the sources again, however. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should Realism be capitalized here? I am not sure. Although Crane was born after the war, and had not at the time experienced battle firsthand, the novel is known for its Realism. Seems to me that as an adjective it might be lower case, or if it is referring to the movement / theory, perhaps something like "...the novel is known as an early example of Realism" or something like that would work? (I just made up the early example part)
  • You're right, I don't think I intended it to refer to the movement here, although it does link to literary realism. I've made it lowercase. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should the revised 1982 version be mentioned in the lead?
  • Is this one of those novels that has never been out of print? If so, I would say so (although the reprints for WWI make it sound like it had gone out of print back then, in which case it might help to say that).
  • Aha, good point. While several of Crane's volumes of poetry and short stories were out of print by the 1920s (only to be reprinted after his revival), I don't believe Red Badge ever went out. Weatherford says as much, so I'll add it accordingly. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I always thought direct quotations in the lead still needed a ref per WP:MOSQUOTE Also notable for its use of what Crane called a "psychological portrayal of fear", ...
  • I've heard it both ways, and I generally agree. I'll add one just to be sure. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • A sentence more on legacy in the second paragraph of the lead couldn't hurt (perhaps mention the movie(s) and one of the assessments of it). Probably better to add such a sentence (if added at all) before the current last sentence of the lead.
  • Sadads said as much above, so I'll give it a shot. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Background

  • I am never 100% sure of logical quotation (LQ) but there are a few places that seem not to follow it to me. The first is He later stated that he "had been unconsciously working the detail of the story out through most of his boyhood" and had imagined "war stories ever since he was out of knickerbockers."[4] (last quote is not a full sentence)
  • It's a full sentence in the source, just the end of a sentence. :) During the GAC I checked the quotes, and they all seem to fit LQ. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would New York City be clearer in At the time, Crane was intermittently employed as a free-lance writer, contributing articles to various New York newspapers.?
  • It looks like Lake View, New Jersey is today part of Paterson, New Jersey - see here. Not sure if that is worth mentioning or linking.
  • More LQ - He would later relate that the first paragraphs came to him with "every word in place, every comma, every period fixed."[6]
  • Again, the quoted part is the end of a sentence. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Publication history

  • Maybe these would make this slightly clearer (since there are three versions of the novel discussed). In 1982, W. W. Norton & Company published a version of the novel based on Crane's original 1894 manuscript [of 55,000 words]. Edited by Henry Binder, this version is questioned by those who believe Crane made the original edits [for the 1895 Appleton edition] on his own accord.[11]

Plot summary

  • Would it help to add that the regiment is fictional in On a cold day, the 304th New York Regiment awaits battle beside a river.? There were so many different Civil War regiments that I wondered if it was real as I read this section.
  • Link Confederate?
  • "(fictional)" was there originally, but I removed it recently. I'll add it back without the parentheses. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tighten / clarify? A line of Confederates hidden behind a fence beyond a clearing are able to shoot at Henry's regiment, which is ill-covered in the tree-line, with impunity. could perhaps be something like A line of Confederates hidden behind a fence beyond a clearing shoot with impunity at Henry's regiment, which is ill-covered in the tree-line.
  • Perhaps say that the book ends with the following lines before the long quote?
  • Yeah, that's been giving me issues. Added a small intro. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Historical accuracy and inspiration

  • Is "previous" necessary in ...he wrote The Red Badge of Courage without any previous experience of war.[14]? WOuld it help to add "or battle" at the end (not sure).
  • I was trying to convey that he of course had experience of war after writing the novel, but I see now that it's obvious later in the paragraph. Removed "previous". María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add "a" in He would, however, later serve as [a] war correspondent during the Greco-Turkish and Spanish-American Wars.?
  • Is the antecedent of "the author" clear in Thomas Beer wrote in his problematic 1923 biography of the author that Crane was challenged by a friend to write The Red Badge of Courage after having announced that he could do better than Émile Zola's La Débâcle.? (Preceding sentence also discusses author Warren Leee Goss)
  • Hmm, after staring at it for a few minutes, I've just removed "the author"; so now it's simply "in his problematic 1923 biography that Crane..." María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • This sentence makes me stumble each time I read it - The metaphor of the "red badge of courage" itself may have been inspired by true events; historian Cecil D. Eby, Jr. noted Union Officer Philip Kearny's insistence that his troops wear bright red unit insignia patches, which became known marks of valor and bravery.[18] Perhaps it would be smoother as something like The metaphor of the "red badge of courage" itself may have been inspired by true events; historian Cecil D. Eby, Jr. noted that Union officer Philip Kearny's insisted that his troops wear bright red unit insignia patches, which became known as marks of valor and bravery.[18]?
  • Changed, but removed one "that" from your suggested rewording. :) María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should "private" be capitalized (as a rank) in Furthermore, there was a private James Conklin who served in the 124th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment,[22]...?
  • I'm not sure, but it hasn't been used consistently throughout. I've changed all instances to uppercase. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Style and genre

  • Can locations be political or military? By avoiding details regarding the political, military and geographical locations of the conflict between the states, the novel becomes divorced from its historical context.[28] Perhaps something like By avoiding political, military and geographic details of the conflict between the states, the novel becomes divorced from its historical context.[28] (which is a bit tighter too)
  • Could "labels" be omitted in Notably lacking labels are the dates in which the action takes place, and the name of the battle; these omissions effectively shift attention...
  • Can anything more be said about the anonymous critic - the publication he wrote for or the year? Crane's realistic portrayal of the psychological struck a chord with reviewers; as one anonymous critic wrote [in YEAR? in the Some City Newspaper?]:
  • Sure, added that it was for The New York Press. Also changed "anonymous" to "contemporary", as it was 1895. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it the "Tattered Soldier" (Plot summary) or "the tattered soldier" (Style and genre)?
  • Lowercase in the novel, but some critics refer to him otherwise; I've made it lowercase. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Themes

  • Tighten? The first twelve chapters, leading up until he receives his accidental wound, expose his cowardice. The following chapters of the story then detail his apparent heroism.[35]
  • Tighten? "As critic Donald Gibson stated in his work The Red Badge of Courage: Redefining the Hero..."

General

  • For books that do not have an ISBN, an OCLC can be found at World Cat and added.
  • This may prove difficult for some of the sources, so I'll give it some thought for now. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would it be possible to add anything about the success of the book and its effect on Crane's life in legacy?
  • "Reception" currently states that the novel's success made "Crane an overnight success at the age of twenty-four", but I see what you mean. I'll try to add something. María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please make sure that the existing text includes no copyright violations, plagiarism, or close paraphrasing. For more information on this please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches. (This is a general warning given in all peer reviews, in view of previous problems that have risen over copyvios.)

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely helpful! Thanks for your in depth and knowledgeable review! I've already reviewed three articles over the past week, but I'll see if I can pick one more up before I finish up here. :) María (habla conmigo) 13:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're very welcome - please let me know when this is at FAC. Forgot to mention I made a few minor edits to fix what seemed to be typos - please revert if I made things worse or introduced errors. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:05, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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