Wikipedia:Peer review/Scientology in Germany/archive1

Scientology in Germany edit

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I've listed this article for peer review because it was promoted to GA last year, and I would like to see if it can be taken to FAC in something approaching its present state. It is a contentious topic, one of the few recent sources of diplomatic tension between the Federal Republic of Germany and the United States, highlighting different approaches to religious freedom.

Thanks, JN 466 22:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Auntieruth55 edit

JN, nice article, and quite interesting to read. I knew nothing about Scientology in Germany, other than it was a fraught topic, and the Germans were quite upset about it. This has the potential for FAC, I think, but its prose needs some help, especially at the beginning, and there are a couple places of structural weakness.

You've beat around the bush on some of the verb structures. For example, in the lead, A majority of the German population is in favour of banning Scientology altogether. ...In xxxx, a majority of Germans favoured banning Scientology altogether.
Strangely enough, the weakest part seems to be the background section. I would identify up front that the movement has Utopian aspirations, rather than waiting for the end of the first paragraph. You might even include a more detailed section on "what is Scientology". I know you've linked to the article, but I don't really want to go there, not for a whole article on it, yet I do need to know more than one or two sentences for this article to have its best impact.
Some of your sentences seem to combine two ideas (or more) ideas into one sentence, and probably should be more carefully planned out. Sentences like this one: The financial aspect that ties self-improvement to donations has brought controversy to Scientology throughout much of its history, with governments classing it as a profit-making enterprise rather than as a religion. First, that Scientology connects self-improvement to an individual's donations is unclear to me. If I cannot make a donation, then I cannot improve myself? Or that to get rid of those engrams, I have to improve myself, and must make donations. And is this different from fee for service (which isn't a donation).
the information on the population of scientologists -- 5,000 by the official German count, 30,000 by the Scientology count, is very interesting, and is a bit buried. I think there could also be some comparison of the statistics of religions in general. and if it is 5,000, this is, what, 6/100,000th of the population? How does this stack up with Jehovah's witnesses, or Quakers?
why did Travolta meet with Clinton? Was it to discuss Scientology? or just to have a beer?
minor stuff: in a few places, your quotation marks are outside the punctuation, and in some others, inside.
I fixed a few glaring points, hope that's okay. I'll be glad to go through this with an edit pencil if you'd like, but it would be next week or the week after. Let me know. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:07, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much for your feedback and your edits. I think you've laid your finger on a few sore spots, and I'll get to work addressing them. Your editing pencil is very welcome when you have time! The prose and flow can definitely do with a bit of fluffing up. --JN 466 00:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the number of Quakers in Germany is even smaller, just a few hundred. Jehovah's Witnesses are far more significant at around 165,000 members in Germany; they have also been very controversial, but have recently won some religious rights. I've added a little more info on membership estimates for Scientology, and clarified the passage about the monetary aspect. --JN 466 15:48, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The statement you made below about the connection to Catholicism and Lutheranism....that was interesting, and is a possible reason for the German state's strong opposition. Also, it would be interesting to have brief comparisons to Belgium and France. I think you linked there, but perhaps a short explanation of what the differences are would be in order.

The other comment about the active voice in the beginning is appropriate, and perhaps it would make some sense to go through and work the active voice into the later sections as well. Active voice versus the convoluted use of verbs (not necessarily passive voice)—it's a germanism ;) Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Me?? Germanisms? Nevvah! :) I'll do some more research on the role of the churches, neighbouring countries, and other NRMs in Germany. And I'll try to get hold of this paper: [1] Unfortunately, right now RL is impinging again. --JN 466 15:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Panyd Comments - Just looking at the first few sections of this.

There is no need to say: Scientology, a new religious movement with a long history of controversy in countries all over the world in the introduction. You are already saying that the movement has encounter antagonism in Germany, anything else is superfluous.
There is also no need to say: A majority of the Herman population favors banning Scientology - this is relevant but doesn't seem to fit in the opening paragraph. Especially as you go into more depth about it later on in the article.
Unless you use a direct quote it isn't good to say: but views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion etc. That's slanderous. However, I know you have quotes so it's a good idea to put them in there!
In the background section the second mention of Scientology as a controversial new religious group also seems superfluous.
Everything from The fact that Scientologists have to pay to significant sums of money for Scientology courses is unnecessary as this is dealt with on the Scientology article itself and isn't specifically relevant to the movement in Germany. Same with Germany is not alone in opposing to Belgium, Greece and the UK.
The introduction to the comparison of Scientology to the Nazis isn't handled very well. There is obviously a lot to be said about this but saying: Given the lessons of Germany's 20th century seems to be clumsy phrasing and suggests a POV as opposed to later where it seems you are talking about the scholarly research into the similarities.

Just a few thoughts on the opening sections. It's a fantastic article, just needs the POV squeezed out of it! Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 17:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments! I'll look into these. --JN 466 21:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lambanog comments:

Early on there seem to be a lot of active voice statements. Some variety in sentence structure might improve flow a little.
Related to the above Scientology seems to be repeated over and over. Maybe a way to apply more pronouns and synonyms can be found.
The article is Scientology in Germany but it doesn't seem to go into great detail on why Germany in particular treats Scientology the way it does. Yes there's the Nazi analogy, but could there be other reasons?
Are there other groups that fall afoul of the German government in the same way? For example do The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Unification Church, and Soka Gakkai meet with the same reception? Why or why not?
Despite the criticism section I detect a German slant to the article. Maybe instead of isolating the sides in their own sections, more attempts at portraying the other side should be made throughout the article. Lambanog (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll look into the repetitiveness. It is a difficult article to weight right. Earlier on I had people shouting at me that the article was "racist" and against Germans. :) The background section at the beginning was partly a result of that. As for your question about other reasons for Germany's behaviour, the German state still has strong links to the two established and dominant Christian churches (Catholics and Lutherans, for whom it has traditionally collected taxes). There is not such a broad and varied religious landscape as there is in the States. Of course, there is a similar situation in other European countries, especially France and Belgium, whose treatment of religious minorities has been criticised as well. (See [2].) Germany has a particular thing about Scientology though. No other group is so vilified and stigmatized. Does this make sense?

I may not have much time to work on the article the next couple of days, but will drop you a note once I have gotten round to it. If you have any further ideas in the meantime, please just add them below. --JN 466 23:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No need for a response. I simply wanted to make what I hope were some constructive comments since I read the article. Good luck with it! Lambanog (talk) 06:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I very much appreciate the feedback. --JN 466 14:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]