Robert Burnell
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I've listed this article for peer review because… I would like to take it to FAC and would appreciate any help on missing context or copyediting that it can have.
Thanks, Ealdgyth - Talk 02:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Comments from Dr pda Wow, a bishop with a surname. I though you'd branched out into a different field for a moment :) As usual a reasonably solid, if short, article. I presume you've already hit all available (relevant/high-quality etc) sources? I've quickly read the ODNB entry and wonder if maybe a few more of the details from it could be included in the article (e.g. what he did as bishop, or his involvement in Welsh affairs), though I can see you don't want to overwhelm the article with trivia. The article would benefit from a copy-edit for prose; I don't have time to do this, but have listed a few cases below. There are also a few places where a bit more context would be good (see below also), and finally there were some MoS issues (dashes, p/pp) which I have fixed myself. I've also changed [notes 1] etc to [Note 1] while leaving the section title as Notes. (It just sounds wrong to me.)
Specific points:
- Watch out for repetition—"served as ... served as ... served as" in the lead, "a number ... a number " in 'Foreign service', "although ... although" in Death and legacy
- served as a royal clerk before switching to the service of the future King Edward I of England—this doesn't sound right to me, it sets up a contrast between 'royal clerk' and 'service to future King Edward', but both of these are service to a King, so there is no contrast! How about worked as a clerk in the royal chancery before moving to the household of Prince Edward, later King Edward I of England
- After this I would add another sentence along the lines of he became a favourite of Edward and was one of his four lieutenants when Edward went on Crusade.(Ref ODNB) Otherwise we jump from him being a clerk to regent of the kingdom!
- The lead also needs to be expanded; it is currently mostly about him being a bishop while the article is mostly about him being a chancellor, or at least his non-religious activities.
- Confirmation by the papacy—who's doing the confirming, the institution of the papacy, or the person of the pope?
- The first paragraph of Early life needs rewriting. The same facts are repeated in successive sentences.
- Context: chancery probably needs an explanation, since the link goes to Chancellor. Is it the same as the Court of Chancery or is it just the Chancellor's office?
- 'Welsh' is possibly overlinking; a better link would be to an article on the conflict between the English and the Welsh at the time.
- Context: It is probably worth pointing out that at this time clerk implies cleric implies minor orders to prevent readers being surprised that an office worker is being appointed to religious positions :)
- Context: which chapter is it who is electing the Archbishop of Canterbury?
- Speaking of which, in the infobox, could we get rid of one of never consecrated/never enthroned, and in the remaining one give a date for his election, e.g. "elected June 1278
- His lifestyle also partly accounts for the hostility between himself and the man who was eventually elected archbishop, John Peckham.[2] Peckham had actually been sent by Edward to Rome to secure Nicholas' confirmation of the election. I don't understand how his lifestyle led to the hostility between them. From the ODNB it appears (unless I'm reading it wrong) that Peckham was involved with Burnell's failed appointment as Winchester not Canterbury.
- the chief and most influential adviser—doesn't one imply the other? Also, which is more common in British English, adviser or advisor?
- I have no idea on the spelling. (I let Malleus copyedit for that .. since I'm a yank). To me, chief implies an official type position (holding the office) and I'm trying to get across that not only did Burnell hold the high office, he also had the big influence. (With some monarchs, holding the chancellorship didn't always mean you had much influence...) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:48, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
- As part of his duties, Burnell spent most of his time—sounds a bit awkward.
- The bishop took a leading role in the legislation of King Edward. The king's major legislative acts mainly date to Burnell's tenure of the office of chancellor, from 21 September 1274 until the bishop's death.—it sounds strange to me to refer to Burnell by his ecclesiatical title in a non-ecclesiastical context.
- Edward and the government—what exactly is being referred to by 'government'? Parliament, Privy Council, Courts?
- swamping that body in too much work—swamping with, perhaps?
- In these writs, the government attempted to enforce that the only correct way to receive a privilege or grant of land was through a written charter, which actions might have deprived most of the magnates of England of their lands and rights. By the 1290's, the government was forced to concede the attempt and that claims that a right had been theirs since "time out of mind" were allowed. This is rather opaque. Only because I had clicked through to quo warranto did I know that magnates often had grants without a written charter.
- Added in a sentence so it now reads " these writs, attempts were made to enforce the rule that the only correct way to receive a privilege or grant of land was through a written charter, which actions might have deprived most of the magnates of England of their lands and rights. Most lands at this point were held not held by documentary grants, but by the force of custom. By the 1290's, the government was forced to concede the attempt and that claims that a right had been theirs since "time out of mind" were allowed." Ealdgyth - Talk 17:48, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
- The ones in 1275—sounds a little colloquial, 'Those of 1275' perhaps? Also, this is a bit messy in that we get things out of order: first we have Parliament getting swamped, then we get quo warranto writs, then we get Statute Of Westminster I (which was presumably what swamped Parliament) with a mention of later quo warranto writs. The statute needs to be tied back to the preceding statements a bit better.
- arose from pressure from the barons—who are these barons you speak of? :)
- Penultimate paragraph of Chancellor and bishop needs more context, especially Great Seal vs Privy Seal. Hanaper in the following para could also do with a gloss.
- I don't know if I agree that the memorandum was the cause or the effect of the chancery becoming fixed. Who in the chancery would be able to write a memo ordering the Chancellor?
- the homage that Edward owed to King Philip IV of France—presumably by reason of the former's French possessions?
- Berwick could do with a word or two locating it, to prevent the reader having to click through. Also, are you sure it is Berwick, East Sussex, rather than Berwick-upon-Tweed? The latter would make more sense if (as it looks like from the ODNB) he was still sorting out disputes re the Scottish crown.
- Did he hold the Parliament in Acton Burnell Castle proper, or in the adjacent barn, as the only sufficently large structure? Acton Burnell Castle suggests the latter.
- I don't trust the source on the Castle article, and nothing I have says anything about the barn. CE'd it to "He kept a magnificent household, enough that he was able in the autumn of 1283 to host a parliament at his home in Acton Burnell." which keeps us away from stating exactly WHAT building it was held in. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:48, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
- Might be an idea to mention Philip being his heir in the 'Death and legacy' section as well. And could also be useful to mention that his family gave their name to the town, not the other way around.
- Is there a reason the pre-ISBN books don't have OCLC numbers?
As always, I hope you find these comments useful. Dr pda (talk) 02:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
- Still working on the bishop stuff and the lead. This is one of my early GAs, it's not as "complete" (read "full of every detail possible") as the later ones...
- thanks for the great review. How's Epikleros coming? (grins). Ealdgyth - Talk 17:48, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
- You're welcome. Epikleros is chugging along, though slowly as I'm very busy IRL at the moment. It's almost time for another visit to the library to investigate the 20 or so books which have accumulated on my list, and someone's had the nerve to recall some of the books I've had out for, umm, six months now :) I'm looking forward to the point when I can actually start writing, but at least I can be confident that no-one can claim that I haven't carried out a "comprehensive survey of the available literature"! Dr pda (talk) 01:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Brianboulton comments
You seem to have attracted plenty of comment during this peer review. Here are my additional pennyworths. I have also done odd bits of ce, not thorough (no time), mainly commas and odd non-contentious rephrasings
- Lead
- Do you need "born" in the opening parentheses? It is surely implied by the date range,
- It is not immediately clear that the "prince" whose interests Robert stayed in England to serve is the aforementioned "future King Edward I of England". Suggest you introduce him as "Prince Edward, the future..." etc
- Wikilnk on "regent"? Not everyone will know what the term means.
- Ditto "chancellor"
- This sentence: "Burnell continued to enjoy the king's trust until the bishop's death in 1292" makes it sound as though "the bishop" was a third person. I suggest turn it round, thus: "Until his death in 1292, Burnell continued to enjoy the king's trust."
- Chancellor and bishop
- "...and then appointed a friar, Peckham, instead". You have mentioned John Peckham in the previous line; adding "a friar" to his second mention is odd. If it is significant to say that he was a friar, this should be done at his first mention.
- "magnates" again - how did we deal with them in Hilary of Chichester?
- The fourth paragraph of the "Chancellor and bishop" section begins with an extremely long and convoluted sentence. Some rewriting advised, possibly: "During Burnell's time as Chancellor, the division between the king's personal household department of the Wardrobe,[23] and the governmental department of the Chancery, which was headed by the Chancellor, was erased almost entirely. The Wardrobe had developed as a less formal department for the collection and distribution of money but under Edward had effectively become a treasury for warfare.[24]"
- "dispurse"? Is there such a word? Disburse, perhaps.
- The clause "...and enjoy the profits from the fees of their office" hangs loose at the very end of a long sentence, completely detached from what it relates to at the start of the sentence, which becomes very difficult to follow. Another rewrite job, I think. I don't know if the following retains he meaning, but it is offered as a suggestion: "Edward had such trust in his chancellor and the chancellor's clerks that Burnell and the clerks were allowed to dispense with the hanaper system,[28][29] which required fees for sealing charters to be paid into the hanaper department of the chancery for disbursal.[30] Robert and his clerls were permitted to enjoy the profits from the fees of their office.[28][29]"
- "settle down in London" - why not "settle in London"?
- Wording query: "...a chancery memorandum of 1280 that ordered the chancellor, along with the other minsters, the duty of sorting the many petitions..." The sense, presumably, is delegating the duty in question to the chancellor and other ministers , but I don't think you can "order" a duty.
- Reworded to "This is documented in a chancery memorandum of 1280 that documented the fact that the chancellor, along with the other minsters, now had the duty of sorting the many petitions that came into the government and only passing on the most urgent to the king." does that work better? Ealdgyth - Talk 19:15, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Foreign service
- The phrase "a number of" occurs in succesive sentences. One could be "several"
- Another problem sentence: "The speech was a prelude to discussions involving the homage that Edward owed to King Philip IV of France, for Edward's land in France, which were concluded successfully." Again, its the bit at the end that's too far away from the object it relates to, in this case discussions involving homage. The sentence would better read: "The speech was a prelude to discussions, successfully concluded, involving the homage that Edward owed to King Philip IV of France, for Edward's land in France."
- "Gascony enjoyed the best government..." - should this be "its" best government?
- It sounds a bit dismissive to describe Llywelyn ap Gruffudd as "a Welsh ruler". He's pretty significant in Welsh history. (n.b I am 25% Welsh)
- LOL.. Suggestions? Our article on him is at FAR, and I'm trying very hard to NOT buy the new work on him to help out. I have to draw the line somewhere... Ealdgyth - Talk 19:15, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- 25% of me suggests "that fabulously brave Welsh hero, cruelly done to death by the dastardly English...etc" The other 75% suggests "the Welsh chieftain". Brianboulton (talk) 20:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- How about "the Welsh ruler"? (chieftan implies a smaller polity to me, ruler implies a nice bigger spot which might appease that 25% of you.) I'd say "important Welsh ruler" but we might fall afoul of WP:PEACOCK Ealdgyth - Talk 20:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- 25% of me suggests "that fabulously brave Welsh hero, cruelly done to death by the dastardly English...etc" The other 75% suggests "the Welsh chieftain". Brianboulton (talk) 20:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- LOL.. Suggestions? Our article on him is at FAR, and I'm trying very hard to NOT buy the new work on him to help out. I have to draw the line somewhere... Ealdgyth - Talk 19:15, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Is the last sentence of the section actually relevant to Burnell?
- Death and Legacy
- "rumors" and "rumour" occur in final section.
Hope these comments help, and I apologise if they have already been raised by others. Brianboulton (talk) 22:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Comments from Awadewit Not much to say - this article looked good to me. I copyedited a bit as I was going, but there were few glaring errors. :)
When Edward went on Crusade in 1270, Burnell stayed in England to secure the prince's interests. He served as regent after the death of King Henry III of England while Edward was still on Crusade - Do we capitalize "crusade" when not referring to a specific crusade?, such as the act of being "on crusade"?
He also helped with the legislative and legal reforms of Edward's reign. During his tenure the chancellor's office and records became fixed at London. - Does "his tenure" refer to "Edward's reign" or Burnell's time in office?
The family had given its name to the town sometime prior to 1198. - What do you think about beginning the "Early life" section with this fact? Right now, it is marrooned in the middle of the first paragraph. It seems like a good way to begin to me.
Note 1: "a clerk meant a person who was a member of the secular clergy" - a person or a man?
dealt with problems on the Welsh marches - Sorry, what?
- The usual problems on the Welsh marches. Welsh coming over to England and stealing things, the English running the other direction and stealing things, both sides beating each other up and strutting around. (grins). Changed to "... raids on the Welsh marches Ealdgyth - Talk 02:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I feel as if the second paragraph of "Chancellor and bishop" assumes some of the knowledge about Quo warranto writs that is provided in the third paragraph. I was slightly confused until I read the third paragraph. Note that the definition of the writ is offered in the third paragraph.
By the 1290s, the government was forced to concede the attempt and that claims that a right had been theirs since "time out of mind" were allowed. - I'm stumbling on "and that claims that a right had been theirs..."
- Try this "By the 1290s, the government was forced to back down and allowed rights based on the fact that something had been allowed since "time out of mind"." Does that make more sense? (Sucks when you know what you mean but can't quite explain it...) Ealdgyth - Talk 02:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- What's the "something"? Awadewit (talk) 15:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- Try this "By the 1290s, the government was forced to back down and allowed rights based on the fact that something had been allowed since "time out of mind"." Does that make more sense? (Sucks when you know what you mean but can't quite explain it...) Ealdgyth - Talk 02:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
"Chancery" is not always capitalized. I don't know if this is an issue or not.
- Like Crusade, some places capitalize it some don't. I think i'll go with Chancery since I've done Wardrobe.
the first half of Edward's reign was the period when Gascony enjoyed its best government under the Plantagenets - "Best" meaning what, exactly? Most peaceful? Most prosperous?
This was part of a attempt to reinforce Acre, which was threatened in the late 1280s - I don't understand this, nor why it is linked to Acre.
- Heh. Acre in Palestine, a crusader fortress. Clarified to "This was part of a attempt to reinforce the Crusader city of Acre, which was threatened by Muslims in the late 1280s." and have the link to the actual town. I always forget that Acre doesn't go to Acre the town... Ealdgyth - Talk 02:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- For a second image, would it be possible to obtain a photo of his grave?
- The "Further reading" entries are missing full citations.
- that's because I don't own those publications and haven't been able to lay my hands on them. (ducks) That's why they are in teh further reading section and not the sources. (Luckily, the ONDB summarizes them, so I'm not actually lacking the information in them.) Ealdgyth - Talk 02:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Like I said, tiny things. Awadewit (talk) 01:07, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch comments As requested, here are my thoughts on the article, which looks pretty solid. Here are a few nitpicks,
- Would it make sense to add minor to this sentence in the lead - A native of Shropshire, he served as a [minor] royal official before switching to the service of Prince Edward, the future King Edward I of England.
- Also in the lead, would it be clearer to identify the crusade (not just by year): When Edward went on [the Eighth] Crusade in 1270, ...?
- Dignity just sounds odd in this The bishop's second failure to obtain this dignity was probably due to his lifestyle, which included keeping a mistress.[2] - perhaps link it to the Wiktionary entry [1] as dignity?
- In the Chancellor and bishop section, Quo Warranto is wikilinked and has a note on the second occurence, not the first.
- There has to be a clearer way of saying this, but to be honest I am not sure exactly what it means ... and a Joan Burnell was the subject of a bond to the bishop that the son of William of Greystoke would marry her.
- A marriage bond was just a bond (like a bail bond) that meant that someone would marry someone else or they forfeit the bond. I've changed this to "Joan Burnell was the subject of a guarantee to the bishop that the son of William of Greystoke... " which gets the same meaning without the technicalities. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- Would it make any sense to add this imae of Wells Cathedral File:Wells001.jpeg to the Legacy section - it is a lovely place and I think this front was in place when he was there.
That's all I had - looks good. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:50, 14 March 2009 (UTC)