Wikipedia:Peer review/Lionel Palairet/archive1

Lionel Palairet edit

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This article has been a Good article for a while now, and I feel that it has the content to be Featured. I appreciate all feedback, copyedits and thoughts.

Thanks, Harrias ^talk 06:34, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

~~The comma before "comtemporaries believed he deserved more Test caps" should probably be a semi-colon instead.~~
~~"and was selected to captain the side in each of 1892 and 1893." You could probably remove "each of" without affecting the meaning.~~
University and county cricketer: "At the time, The Daily Telegraph reported that the pair remained together for three and half hours". Does British English usually exclude the "a" before "half" in such a structure. We in the U.S. would include it, but maybe this is one of those language differences I encounter from time to time.

No variation, just me being silly. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

~~Since C. B. Fry was linked in the last section, I don't think another link is needed here.~~
~~From our article on the subject, it looks like Corinthians shouldn't have the last letter.~~
~~England recognition: "Harry Altham is more direct in claiming that Palairet should not have chosen" feels like it needs "been".~~
~~Style and technique: The last sentence forms a stubby paragraph. Perhaps it could be expanded or merged into the previous paragraph.~~
~~There's some red text in ref 90 indicating that the ISBN number may be incorrect. That's worth checking out quickly.~~ Giants2008 (Talk) 23:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, I have enacted most of them. Every source with the exception of Wikipedia that I have come across uses "Corinthians" rather than "Corinithian", so I have stuck with that, and I remove the last sentence of the Style and technique section altogether, I don't feel it really adds any relevant information. Harrias ^talk 12:52, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing from a second look, which I don't think Sarastro listed below: ref 20 (from a book) could use a page number. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, added that. Harrias ^talk 14:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sarastro: Looking good generally. I've a few fussy points, but nothing major. I just wonder if we need quite such a detailed list of his scores in a few places, but not a big deal. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:53, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Palairet was frequently described as having one of the most attractive batting styles of his period": Unlike Palairet, this lacks a certain elegance. Although I'm loathe to go for the old "Critics regarded…" What about "Contemporaries judged Palairet to have one of the most attractive batting styles of the period", and maybe move "A graceful right-handed batsman" to the start of the previous sentence.
"An unwillingness to tour during the English winter limited Palairet's Test appearances, contemporaries believed he deserved more Test caps": Something not quite right here. A semi-colon instead of a comma perhaps?
"Educated at Repton School, where he played in the cricket team for four years, captaining the side in the latter two, Palairet then went on to Oriel College, Oxford.": Too much going on here? What about "Palairet was educated at Repton School. He played in the school cricket team for four years, as captain in the latter two, before going to Oriel College, Oxford".
"He achieved his cricketing Blue in each of his four years at Oxford, and ~~was selected to captain~~ [captained] the side in each of 1892 and 1893"
The date from note 1 could be updated. I think there is a template (something like "as of") which does this automatically.
- What's the point in something that does it automatically, surely the whole point is that the fact should be checked before changing the date? Harrias ^talk 12:55, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm inclined to agree, and have never used it myself (although I think someone once added one to one I'd expanded), but ... it's there if anyone wants it! Sarastro1 (talk) 13:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"In that season, Palairet made 1,343 runs at an average of more than 30, and was named as one of the "Five Batsmen of the Year" by Wisden.": Do we need these numbers in the lead, as they are not particularly impressive.
"He played in the only two matches that the near-invincible Yorkshire team lost from 1900 to 1902.": While it's always nice to be reminded of this(!), I'm not too sure why this is in the lead. The general reader will not really know the context. And some of us do not care to be reminded of the context…
"His only Test matches were the remarkably close": Editorial judgement?

Both of these were added by another editor; I have removed the first, and tidied the second. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Thinking out loud here, I always think it would be nice to give some context to these school figures as they are often faintly ridiculous from players of little talent. But I have not yet found a way to do it, unless Wisden mentions them in the schools reports. And obviously few of us have access to these really old Wisdens. (I'm not suggesting you do anything here, btw.)

Yeah, and like with the seven in seven, I expect they are heavily exaggerated by terrible opposition. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Some of Palairet's early success can be attributed to his father, who paid the professionals Frederick Martin and William Attewell, both later Wisden Cricketers of the Year, to bowl at his two sons during the Easter holidays, to help them prepare for the upcoming cricket season": Is the second comma really necessary?

I think so, but I have a love affair with commas. I've left it for the time being. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Although a Lancastrian by birth, his family home was at Cattistock in Dorset, and it was in the south west that he chose to play his cricket, qualifying for Somerset on the basis of residence." The previous sentence is about Somerset, which makes "his" slightly ambiguous. Perhaps the Somerset sentence could be made a footnote?

I've left the Somerset sentence in, as I think it provides context that is more worthy of a place in the article than a note. But I often get a little confused writing these articles and start writing about Somerset, rather than the person, so it might be better reduced to a note. I'll think on it. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cricket career

"Palairet entered the first eleven for Oxford in his first year at the university": Entered seems an odd word. What about cutting it back to "Palairet was selected for the university cricket team during his first year there…"
"Oxford's batting was described as unreliable during Palairet's second year at university": Described by who?
"placed him fifth amongst his peers": Perhaps a little grand for an encyclopaedia?

I don't know, it wasn't intended to sound grand. I've left it for the moment. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Although he is mentioned in the lead and the caption to the image, the main text here does not mention Hewett's name in connection with the record partnership.
"despite helpful conditions": Perhaps better as "despite favourable/good batting conditions"
I'm not sure of the value of the direct quote from Bolton as very little concerns LCH. Maybe paraphrase as something along the lines of Bolton questioning his place in the team.

Uhmmm. Me neither. I've left it in, purely because its inclusion seems so odd that I can only assume there is a reason I've forgotten, and didn't explain in the article. I'll have a look at the source, and come back to this. It might be another case of me getting caught up and writing about Oxford, rather than Palairet. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Cambridge had a "powerful" team": I don't think we need quotes around one word like this, unless we are saying "According to X, Cambridge had a "powerful" team…"
"Despite this relatively poor season by his own standards, Somerset still relied heavily on him": Can we tell this from the batting averages?

No, this is a bit of.. well.. not original research, but probably original extrapolation. I'll have a look around my sources and see if anything supports this better.

"was against Somerset at Headingley in Leeds.": I'm not sure, at that time, that Headingley was technically in Leeds.
"Faced with a heavy defeat, it is said": By who?

Again, this was added by another editor. I've taken it out for the moment, as I'm not sure how much encyclopaedic value it adds, but I'm not overly opposed to its inclusion in some form. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe crop the Spy image to remove the border?
"on what Sir Home Gordon described as a "rain-ruined wicket"": Could we explain this for the general reader? Sarastro1 (talk) 10:53, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Probably. I'm not sure how to at the moment though, I'll give it some thought. Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your kind review: I have made changes to the article for most of your points, a few I have replied directly to, and a few I have not yet done, which I have noted (more for my own purposes than yours!) Harrias ^talk 14:38, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more: I managed somehow to miss the style and technique section yesterday. But otherwise, I think it's just about there for FAC.

"He played predominantly off the front foot, and tended to be less effective on soft pitches": Could we make this better for the general reader? I'm not sure of the best way and usually end up with a pile-up of words when I try to do it.
"and helped him to score more effectively": Than...?
- Everyone else? Not quite sure how to phrase this, and the comment above to better explain it. Harrias ^talk 14:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is CB suggesting that this was a good or bad thing? As he was a pretty nifty legside player, I wonder if it was a criticism?
- Certainly in the article it doesn't sound like criticism: he seems pretty full of praise; but either way, I think it can be read as an analysis rather than being either good or bad. Harrias ^talk 14:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is the comparison with Viv really useful to the general reader? And it seems a random inclusion in an article about Palairet, for whom there is no other connection other than county.
Ditto with the "modern game" comparison, which was a favoured inclusion of seemingly all historical cricket writing in the 1980s. And technically, if sourced from 1983 is hardly the modern game anymore. (And in my opinion is pretty worthless anyway)
- I removed this entirely. Harrias ^talk 14:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also, was there anything worth including in Fry's autobiography? I think I sent you the relevant pages, but can't remember what was in them. I suspect not a lot. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:44, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the autobiog stuff was more personal than substance. Harrias ^talk 14:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]